silva, i think i will live long enough to witness the factory farming. the great debate this week on d. w or ah ah, this is dw news, i'm public police and welcome to the program. global leaders are meeting in germany for a 2nd day of talks at the munich security conference. widely considered the world's most important international defense defense event and will be bringing you live coverage from munich with analysis from dw security correspondent, thomas barrow,

who is joining me here in the studio. and russia's invasion of ukraine is a chief focus of the agenda with leaders yesterday urging more support for keith's defense. today's schedule you features talks by political leaders from the united states and some of the united kingdom, nato, and germany. among others. this morning to european commission president ursula on the line and finland's prime minister, santa marin, will be taking center stage today on the saturday. so as i mentioned, joining me here in the studio is our security and correspondent, thomas pharaoh. and we have plenty to talk about in the thomas. tell us what can we expect from that at 1st panel discussion and with at the commission president ursa founder line on the finished prime minister at santa maria. we're missing one person there of course georgia maloney who are to actually stay couldn't actually

attend because of illness. so this will actually set the stage for what, what we'll be hearing today by other leaders of the world as well. this is one element of the. busy whole discussion in munich on it's described as a, as the birth in question mark of geopolitical europe. now you have to wonder what geopolitical europe actually means. but it basically means that russia's war and ukraine has sort of catapulted the u towards greater unity or towards greater resolve. and that, but only applies to the warren ukraine, or russia's aggression all countries that fin under sweden joining nato. it also means how the you could, a will act in other conflicts around the world if we're talking about syria county . stan, if yoga, there's a long list of conflicts that have been mentioned. and basically, we will be hearing from these international leaders today as to what role of you could have also what problems and limitations there are because it is also important. the munich security conference in general,

is about dialogue. it's about understanding different positions, not only from the west, from the you, from the united states. it's also about understanding how other countries and other regions around the world think about these very big conflicts. and this is also something that we can expect today, maybe not in the very 1st model, but later in the day when we hear from other leaders from around the world and thomas will be connecting at to munich. as soon as the panel discussion begins, we're just waiting at for the go ahead right now we're, they're not quite there at usually quite punctual. you told me this is well, before doesn't seem this morning. there is punctual as they usually are in munich, but that's ok. you mentioned there at nato, and of course, sin linds nato. accession seems certain sweden's doesn't yet both have applied for membership at the time at the same time. tell us a little bit more about that. so the important context here again has to do with rushes war in ukraine. countries like finland or sweden had for a very, very long time, actually refused to take part in international conflicts,

either being neutral or not participating. but the russian war in ukraine actually changed that there was a big discussion in those countries on, in may last year, both finland and sweden applied for nato membership. now nato membership has to be applied or has to be approved, sorry, by all members of nato. most of them have actually approved of sweden and finance entry. but countries like turkey have so far refused. now there are various issues why turkey has so far refused in particular, in the case of sweden. and this is something that we will also hear probably today . the finish prime minister in this 1st panel, santa marine, will be probably discussing these issues and talking about why it's important for thin and to be part of this defense community to be part of nato. there is this understanding again, that there is a new role for europe or a different role if you will, because of the war in ukraine and what kind of responsibility not only the you, but also nato will take in these kinds of international conflicts. so certainly

a very interesting topic to be discussed today, not the only one, but a very important one indeed. tell us this yesterday we hurdle we heard from some of the, the heavy weights. let's say, what was your main take away from it? yesterday was a very, i would say, at least from the beginning, a very european view of the war in ukraine. we heard from french president manuel, my calling. we heard from german chancellor. we'll have shots, we heard, obviously, from ukraine and presidency lensky. it was all about help towards ukraine, not only military help, but also political and economic support as well. and it's interesting because it was clear that you crate will continue to re steve help as long as necessary. but we also heard from both the german chancellor and the french president that they do not expect this war to end very soon that they are preparing for the long run at the same time that this is not the time for political dialogue. and by the way, these 2 elements of youth rather differently by other countries around the world, there are countries that have remained neutral, for example, in the world that believe that this is a conflict happens far away,

that have rather close relationships to russia in particular. so this is also an element that we hear in during the municipality conference. we heard yesterday a very clear european stance of the war in ukraine. what were already starting to hear from other leaders, where it is the president of god, now with the vice president of columbia, the foreign minister of brazil is how they view the conflict and not only the conflict from their own perspective. it is about this global dialogue or as the meaning security conference, but it, it's also about this partnership between the global north and the global south. right, well, we're going to come back to you in one second, thomas, because at what we're going to take a look at now is an a report done by one of our colleagues on the nato security, or sorry, the munich security conference. let's take listen. bleach rollin ski set the tone comparing ukraine's fight against russia to david and goliath. he will definitely

fall already this year. we can make it all of us together, just as david deed, we can make sure that there is no alternative to our victory. john ukraine's president urged western leaders to act quickly. we need to hurry up. we need this speed, speed of our agreements, speed of our delivery to strengthen our sling. speed of decisions to limit russian potential was lewinsky pushed for speed. german chancellor, all of schultz argued for caution the by losses. we will continue to maintain the balance between providing the best possible support to ukraine and avoiding an unwanted escalation. but shorts also challenged western countries to deliver on promised to weapons that. so this means that every one who can supply these battle tanks should actually do so. now. french president,

emanuel microns packing for ukraine remains firm new doesn't absolutely, mo, at us. if he not, we must absolutely intensify our support for the resistance of the ukrainian people, appropriate law, me and army for leading the counter offensive. which alone will enable credible negotiations under the conditions chosen by ukraine. h authorities, its people ha, lieutenants is authority, isn't that secret group with a formal stage set, talks between western allies, began in earnest offstage. with the next step to bolster ukraine against russia's illegal war are being decided. right? well, as we just wait for at the panel to begin with the air commission president or the founder line on the prime minister of finland, santa marin, i'm here studio at with at d. w. 's at security correspondent thomas barrow. thomas, remind us why the munich security conference is south port. it is an annual gathering always in february, with

a very important list of guests. only this year. it has been reported that about 40 well leaders are attending about a 100 ministers of foreign ministers of defense ministers. so this just gives you an idea of how important this event is to discuss some of the current events, some of the main events happening around the world. obviously, the war in ukraine is taking center stage, but not only the war in ukraine feet. yeah, we're seeing those images are now coming to you live from munich. we can see there at the european commission, president ursula fonder line and the finish prime minister at santa marin. now we mentioned earlier that the prime minister of italy, georgia maloney was also meant to be part of this panel discussion, which is that titled more than the sum of its parts, the birth of geopolitical europe. tom, as you were mentioning a little bit earlier, what that could mean at what is where we can expect from today. you mentioned that there is being dominated by what's taking place in ukraine. let's not also forget

that this time last year we were also dealing with the at munich security conference days from the start of at that war in ukraine. and what do you think we can expect from this panel discussion? what's your, what are you going to be really keeping an eye on? i would like to look very closely at what santa marion says about finance nato accession. the background of that. what the current stage is in their accession and how she views also the fact that finland and sweden are planning to join together despite some discussion as to where the finance could maybe enter the nato 1st and sweden later, there has been a lot of discussion in recent days about that, i would like to really see what santa marine has say about this, but much more broadly about this idea of a geopolitical europe and what that exactly means. what would be the benefits of such a geopolitical europe and gender also, what the limitations would be. thomas, tell me this, do we have any idea of a timeline of when, for example,

finland could enter or sweep if it gets to that? well, as far as they're concerned, obviously that should happen soon. but as i mentioned, in particular, one of the key elements, if not the key element of nato accession is that all 30 nato members have to approve the accession. and so far, one country in particular has refused turkey, so it will be very bottom seat and just what kind of movement there is there that we're now about to you here this because this panel starting. that's right. we can see there are journalist christiana, among poorer who is asking for everyone to take a seat that they can get started if they 1011 minutes later than yes, schedule. she just said, we are ready to go. we're ready to go. all right, donna marin prime minister. well, we're going to take a listen. can i do stop by putting it in context announcing a little bit of an atmospheric question. you both assumed office room elected to

a position in december of 2019. shortly thereafter, the world changed. we 1st had the coverage of pandemic. i should have on the line. and both of you actually did you ever imagine that you would be involved and were just talking about cove it now in such a global upheaval when you 1st took the job? of course not. i had no clue of what was coming up and did i came into office in december 2019. so i had 90 days and then the w. h. o declared the coffee it as a global pandemic with all the consequences behind it. and we started to actually, i started my mandate was one big priority, and that is the european green deal. and digitalization. in hindsight, it's still the big topic behind all these crises. but of course then you have to deal with append damage. you have to deal with an atrocious russian war in ukraine

. so we do not change the direction of travel. but the speed and the challenge is of course i had no pure what was coming up. and prime minister the you you came into of is also in december 2019 as the youngest prime minister in the world of the time. yes. i'm not sure i stole the youngest prime minister, abbas then curse. yeah. was a bit some, some part of this term, a prime minister and bit younger than me. and actually i just visit at austria yesterday and, and i can remember the good cooperation, but we hot i'm, i'm a say that we didn't know what was happening at 20220212022 world isn't a very pretty place when looking back and looking a present and also unfortunately looking to the future. the 1st that global pandemic hit and he changed our security environment in many ways. and we have to

make decisions that we thought that we could not do. but we had to do those then the war in europe energy crisis and we are still in the midst of war. and in the future we are still heading to watch. our biggest challenge is climate change, loss of biodiversity. and ursula, that we have to tackle based problems together. and if you may, ursula, i want to give it a pace to you. i cannot imagine better a precedent for the commission during this difficult, difficult times. ursula hath been real power player and it's been an honor to work with. you. can i ask you something? i'm gonna jump off from the last intervention in the previous panel, which i suppose one can call global south. and ambassador, when he opened this conference said one of the huge challenges,

not just for the conference, but for the world and for policy, is to get a much wider public consensus around the world. you heard the vice president of columbia essentially questioning the direction of flow. and i just wonder whether you think that the inability to create equality in equity during the pandemic. that the global south felt totally cut off. so they didn't get the vaccines in the same way that the rich north did. i wonder if you both look back at that despite your efforts and wonder whether that might have contributed into aaliyah to some of the lack of support you have around the world for your ukraine policy. i think, should i start my day? yeah. i think i, it is important that we are very clear about what this russian war is. it is about proteins, imperialistic plans. and this is something where all of us

and mainly the global cells have a very clear idea. it is completely unacceptable. and countries erm on the other side of the mediterranean, have a bitter and longstanding experience. first you send the negotiators in, then you send there, they see that the experts are sending, those are being sent in, and then it's a mercenaries that are being sent him. so what we have to do is not only explain that we will never, ever accept this imperialistic war. we will never ever accept that i put in as trampling on the international law that protects all of us. that the un charter that is also in the interest, i mean it's in the interest of every single country is being treated so disrespectful and a bad. we will never accept that. today. you can send tanks just across the board

or to invade a country. and this is something which my experience in the last 12 month needs a lot of it just hard work to work together with as you said, the global sells um to make understood, our point of view, but also to work with them on dealing with the not effect of this atrocious war. this is the food crisis. this is the energy crisis. and that we do our utmost to, to deal with a knock on effects in a way that the global cells does not suffer too much from proteins war of aggression. this is our task is hard work, but it's absolutely worse it which prime minister marin, somebody as culture hero around the world as president lula of brazil all. so doesn't believe in the intervention that you all have taken in nato against, as you describe the illegal invasion of one country by a big country. so as commission of underline says, we will never support this,

we understand the historic issues. how do you see trying to convince others of the justice of your cause? the war in ukraine? it's not only an issue for europe, it's the issue for the whole world. and that's because there's a war of values going on, or territory and countries are erasing their hats. they are raising their heads against the international rules based order. and they say it's a problem for everyone. when russia, i talk to ukraine, it, it violated all the rules, all the agreements, it has itself been committed to it before. and this is a problem for everyone, because then we will only see decades of this kind of behavior ahead of us. if ukraine doesn't win the war and we don't, i stand behind our values, aren't they? international rules based order?

so i think this is a larger issue than just issue for europe, just issue for, for ukraine. and we have to do utmost to make sure that ukraine and when, and that we will preserve this system of rules that we have created to get there. and there was a reason why this was created. the wars before world wars that we have seen a need was devastating, and that's why we're both system where we can negotiate, where can weaken bill piece, not the use of violence against each other wars attack and the country to make a stand or gain something. and to that end, when you came into office, you mean as, as, as early as this time last year you were saying that finland would not want to join nato. and then a month later was the invasion. and now obviously you have joined you're, you're trying to just join nato. there is a little bit of a cough awful with turkey deciding whether it's going to approve will not. we understood from the secretary general of nato that may be now they will be separate

tracks. do you expect to join nato separately, or are you committed to try to join it together with sweden when the war war started? 24 of february last year, and now we're heading to what's very sat anniversary one year anniversary of the war. just next week. it was obvious that finland will join nato. it was all this up the same day when russia attacked ukraine at the finish mindset. the most important thing for finish finish people is to make sure that we are independent. we are secure, we have a southern country, we can make our own decisions. his number one issue for finished people. and when russia, our neighbor, i talked a not the neighbor ukraine, it was obvious that finland will join nato because that's the line. that's the only line that russia wouldn't cross. so it's the do with our security. it's to do with peace. it's an act of peace for finland to join nato. we have sent

a very clear message. we want to join to get the widths weighed in at the same time . it's not only because we are good neighbors and good partners. it's all also to do with very concrete matters at the security planning of nato in the whole north. it's in interest of us, but it's also in the interest of nato that finland and sweden will join simultaneously. and we have sent very clear signal and very clear message to turkey and also the hungry that hasn't ratified yet, that we want enter nato together. and this is in the interest of everyone. so no change then even if some of you know change, of course we cannot influence and effect how some country would ratify. it's their decision, but our amass east that we are willing to join and we prefer and want to join together hasn't gone to line. you remember very well this time last

year, but there was warnings by the united states and, and the u. k. the hootin was planning an invasion, your country, germany, others including the president of ukraine who was sitting here, did not want to accept that. that was a reality. and basically we're trying to say no, we hope negotiation can work anyway didn't. but even then you were saying in your speech last year and you, you used ukraine is the cornerstone you talked about ukrainians as the new generation young ukrainians of democrats around the world. do you believe that this unity and steadfastness in the interim year will continue? can you keep all your fractious members on board and people 500000000 people in the block? absolutely. i am today more convinced than i was a year ago. but to set the record straight. indeed, our american friends are way more than a year ago,

started to do something completely unprecedented. that they took their intelligence and knowledge and put it on the public map market. this gave us, gave as an early warning, and my cabinet in the commission started to work with the white house, with the treasury already in december on potential sanctions, in case that russia would invade ukraine. indeed, we all hoped that it would never happen, and we wouldn't ever have to use these sanctions that it was a tedious work day and night to align our very different trade systems to develop sanctions that are targeted ad advanced technologies and goods that are irreplaceable for russia and to be completely synchronized. also within the g 7. this made it possible that on day to day 4 and day 10 of the invasion, we were able to put on the table very heavy sanction packages. so there was the

early warning of the united states was helpful and there was work being done without which we would not have been so effective. a 2nd point is indeed, for me, really touching is the fact how europeans and i would say democracies, our friends, of course, and allies and partners, have immediately understood that this was serious and is, is going to the core of our existence. of course, we have many issues that we discussed, but here from day one on, we were standing as one, we were united, we are united. and if you look back, i mean to all the crisis, we have gone, including the energy crisis and we have mastered it. today. i can really say i'm deeply convinced that we will keep the unity and we will keep the determination because it's about our values and our very existence. we are fighting for looking back at 3 steps 1st when the, when the war started, we were prepared and the commission was prepared for making the sanctions to get

there with all our allies. and we were various past of putting those sanctions on place. so we were prepared on that stage that way a, but looking back now, it was obvious that russia will, i, will attacked. we didn't want to believe it. we tried everything that we could to make a diplomatic solution. and that was of course, the right effort to do, to trying to make a diplomatic solution. but looking back, it was all this, the brush will attack your brain. they already used the energy leverage during that summer. during that autumn, they already used the energy leverage. there was different kind of disruptions with the energy flows during that year of 2021. they hot boot their troops in different places saying, but they are only training. looking back now, it was obvious that they were planning the hot acted and reacted more strongly towards the crimea. then at the war wouldn't happen. i think russia thought it

would be just like crimea just entering ukraine. ukraine would give them open welcome. it would last only for a few weeks and put in what when, very quickly and easily the war because we didn't react 2014. and now we have to learn some lessons on that current situation. and i think the main lesson is not to be naive. we cannot be naive. i listened to the previous panel and i re, i also want the world, which is beautiful and cute, unsecure. and we don't have to put money to our military forces to our defense forces. i also want the world, but that world isn't a reality. the only way this a care piece, the only way to secure the international rule based order is to make sure that europe and democratic countries are strong, that we are investing in our defense capabilities that we have that leverage and that we have also that threat or present, thus,

base our territory in countries where russia is, is a terrible example that they don't use force because they are also, and they have to think also twice will they use to force and what will be the consequence is therefore, and this is the question and we're trying to figure this out. what does winning look like to you or you all have said very strongly what you've just said. prime minister. but what does winning look like? an in for a penny in for a pound? surely. surely you have to go to the very end, giving all the support the ukraine needs to fight this war for them and for you is there. are you worried? ammunition production is not up and running like it should. there's some slowness, let's say, in get in between requesting weapons and getting that. i know you've done an incredible job, but we're talking about an offensive. we're talking about a war that yesterday chances shoals said could go on for years while zalinski,

the president is saying he wants it ended this year. don't you have to double re double travel down on your efforts to end this in a victory? what. what does it we look like, nobody's defined this. well, absolutely, we have to double down and we have to continue the really massive support that is necessary that this imperialistic plans of putting will completely failed. this is one goal and that, that ukraine is able to wind and what are their military support is concerned? indeed, i think it's now the time really to speed up the production and to scale up the production of standardized products that ukraine needs desperately. for example, these standardized and standardized ammunition, it cannot be, that we have to wait months and years till we are able to replenish our till we are able to deliver that to a ukraine. what i thought is that we now take the european piece facility. it is in

place, it is there to typically fund that member states give military equipment to ukraine . so it's an established body. it has a coordination mechanism with ukraine, and that we convened the defense industry of europe. and we very clearly asked them, what is it, what you need to scale up and to speed up standardized project products. i'm not speaking about the highly complex production of specific things, but the standardized products like 155 millimeters and artillery for example. so, and, and we need now to do the same lightly they've done during the pandemic. there to, we've said look to the pharmaceutical companies or what is it, what you need to scale up. we could think of, for example, advanced purchase agreements that gives the defense interest to the possibility to invest in production lines. now to be faster and to increase the amount they can

deliver. and therefore it is for us, paramount now to, to support ukraine in these existential things. i think the 2nd element we should not underestimate is the economic security of ukraine. ukraine needs to survive economically and there. um, it's good that we now have decided to have a regularly budget support for ukraine. $1500000000.00 per month by the european union. our american friends are matching that, and i think the international financial institution should be, should to do more for that also. so m, it is the time to step up because of ukraine really needs the material to survive. well, what is a win for ukraine? that's the ukrainians 30 site. our only job is to provide all the help that they need military help. i'm. i agree you fully agree with,

with president wanda lion that we need the scale up as b it up the production of ammunition and, and other military equipment a very fastly so that when we give our equipment or charity to ukraine than we can also replace that and not be burnable in the upcoming years. so i totally agree with us. so we have to, of course, give them military rate and also much more heavier weaponry that they, they have overdue received. and we have to send a clear message that we will continue this as long as it take as long as it takes as long as you need it. they need financial help. they need your material help. they need help. rebuilding already the infrastructure they, they are not waiting and of the war and then building your crane. they have to build it every day because russia is attacking all the infrastructure very heavily . so we need to give them help whatever they need,

and it's their job to decide what are to terms that they could agree. what are that, that victory points that they need to receive? i think that russia should leave you a thing that to every territory, but it's, there it is. yeah, i think a very important headline is always foss. nothing about ukraine without your cleaning. they have to decide what for them finally is the plan to sit down at the . i mean, to be fair, they have laid it out in 10 point plans by which was good and which we've, they've laid out. i need to go to audience questions. maybe some of these could be and then i'm going to come back and ask you a final question. so this, this session is also entitled, the e, you more than the sum of its parts. not exactly sure what that is. but if anybody wants to ask any questions, we've got about maybe 7 minutes for questions. the lady here. yes, you and please make it a question and not a speech because we don't have time. president bundling natalie,

taught she president von july and back to the knock on effects of, of the war, and in particular the energy crisis. now, from a european standpoint, into european standpoint, we've done catastrophe well over the last year. looking at it globally, perhaps slightly less so in the sense that the ellen g hoarding that many of our countries have been doing have, in a sense, contributed to the energy crisis. looking ahead to the next chair. what is it that you could be doing more in order to address that global energy prices? yeah. so indeed a, we should not forget how it started the energy crisis. of course, an over dependency of the european union on russian fossil fuels without any question. but then it was put in, within a month, cut 80 percent of the pipeline gas supply to the european union. a big strategic mistake big because he thought we, he could blackmail us, that we go down on our knees the. * contrary is the case,

because we have now completely diversified away from the russian gas. and also thanks to the stepping up of our friends the united states with alan g. norway was more pipeline gas. but more important is even that it accelerated our work and the european when deal it's so we have been invested in renewable energy, which is hong rome. it gives us independence and it's clean. we have doubled the additional deployment of renewables last year and the european union and last year for the very 1st time, wind and solar, deliberate, more electricity than gas did. what the other countries are concerned. because and important is that we keep in mind that the tightness, the energy tightness of the global market is due to rush us invasion in ukraine. we shall never forget that. but what indeed other countries are that suffer also from

this energy crisis where they are concerned for us is important that i'll work together. for example, with a global south with africa is intensified on investment in infrastructure to have renewable energy to produce for example, when hydrogen were working now with the other side of the mediterranean, exactly on that one. so the big paradox of this conflict is if there's an accelerator for the european, when deal end for global infrastructure and renewable energy, then it's put in and with his atrocious war. yes. member with my question of the of the commission, of course we were lucky that the united states had joe biden as president when approaching invaded, and that they took the lead on helping ukraine. but next time they meet maybe

otherwise engaged in the far east. ok. thank you for your leadership in using europe's small defense budget for full supplying ukraine. but shouldn't the defense budget and europe's military capability be much bigger in the future? i think we have to invest more in defense without any question. ah, but you are insinuation that it might be possible that we can not so much work together with our transatlantic friends and it was very reassuring. yesterday i had a panel with mitch mcconnell and it was good to hear that he was very clear about the commitment of the whole of the united states. add to support ukraine and to fight a side by side with us for the defense of our values without any question. what our defense capabilities are concerned,

of course at southern decisions of the member states. but indeed, we have progressed a lot in the european union. what harmonizing of the approach toward the defense compatibility capabilities is concerned. it has very weird names. acronyms like pet school, life cards, your name it. but this is good, thanks. thought we have it in place. we can build on that one. but yes, the emphasis has to be on the stronger defense posture. premise tomorrow, and you think your country, your people, your policies, because it's, you have to do that. it's each country that has to decide, right. are you ready? because we heard that the peace dividend were out of that, that time. now your defense budgets have to be ramped up. well, actually if and not has always invest that heavily on defense because we are next door neighbor, the russia. we are already using up to 2 percent of our budget to defense and we will increase this even more so because we want to be prepared. and actually when

we look back that this war and the energy crisis that we are in finland already versus fight our energy mix way before the war. because have aggressive nature. and we don't want that kind of dependencies. that many of the countries have hot. i understand the logic and it's very logical to build those very close economic connections and ties to try to make sure that the war wouldn't happen because we have such a close ties. it would be so costly that we couldn't then see these kind of devastating things happening. but this wasn't the case because there with her teams, they think differently. and in the future we have to be more prepared also when it comes, for example, new technologies. and i totally agree, i think united states, they will look towards asia even more so in the future. and we have to make sure that we are not dependent on those critical matters,

that we are too dependent now doing to pandemic. we were too dependent on, on medicine. we went to dependent on many medical equipment on the energy crisis. we're too dependent on russian fossil fuels. luckily, and thankfully we have, we have done very much to get rid of those connections. but in the future, the big, big issue will be new technologies. technology. yes, know how knowledge. so we have to also invest in our education, see them the know how the knowledge base and new technologies that we are not dependent authoritarian comp, countries from the east because there might be dark clouds also in that direction. and if we have those connections, if we are to be dependent, then we are also, i mean, we are, we cannot be sure that we are secure in that perspective as well. so our job is to make sure that our citizens, our societies will cope whatever happens in the world. so we have to invest.

european union has have to invest and also member states have to invest more in this critical matters. i would like to before i, before i go to the audience again, if i get some time, i need to ask you both a question about the 50 percent. this conference is meant to be 50 percent women. maybe it is. maybe it isn't. you might have just seen obviously jacinta arda and hugely popular. prime minister of new zealand resign citing. she hasn't got any more energy in the tank. nicholas sturgeon, the 1st minister of scotland resigning into arlia, talking about how difficult it is, particularly as a woman to lead any kind of normal life at, you know, as, as a, as a global leader. i wonder what you both think about that because you're the 1st female in this position. you are the 1st female defense minister in your country. you've experienced sexism. so just briefly, how do you deal with it? what do you think about their stepping down and how do you encourage women?

i know that's a lot that maybe just a brief some up and then i'm going to ask you, well, 1st of all, i'm so happy that we live in countries where are leaders change? that's a good thing, but i'm going to say, hey, that's all good. but if i was talking with the i would ask you, why did you have to apologize for being a human being? you found, found dancing? oh my goodness, how awful. yeah, you had to apologize for being a human being. why and i have also also danced after thus that one time and i think there's, of course, there's a lot to be done when it comes to gender equality. and it's very important that we have people from different backgrounds, different genders, but also different backgrounds in decision making. places to attain st. same table, making the decisions because then we have the perspective of every one. we men are

the 50 percent of the world. so women need to be 50 percent of the day, so dish in macon, making ah, bodies. i know that, but ursula and the commission is preparing to, to set a bill for, for companies to have more women representatives on the boards of companies. i think this is very important step forward. i think also in the political system, we have to make sure that women have that possibilities to step up to have their voices heard their lot of structures within our political systems that actually prevent women to get those positions to be heard. many times it's enough that there's one women, look, we have this women here, no problem. we have women here, no problem. but we need more women and we need to really that 50 percent to make sure that everybody's white voices are hurt. so commissioner, i mean, president,

oh, why then? is it so difficult? why do you have to tolerate so much backlash? miss? so jenny, every day sexism, all of that? well, it because their d booted unconscious biases. but you know, and discourage will encourage more. well, i can only encourage my women to be on the stage because that's where we belong in the limelight and women, or men, uh, the one or the out this. i'm not better than the other, but we are different. and that's the point that we have to, of course, take the share of the power to, to change this world and to improve this world. and i think for that, i mean, i know you've done a lot of, we are doing a lot. you need leadership from the top. that is very and every man i'm in a tough position. every woman in a tough position has to influence on that. there are more women coming, a growing up to the top. of course it's also question of infrastructure. so i

vividly remember my most difficult time where the 1st years as a minister, with small children and all these hidden prejudices. i got the question i mean in talk us like these ones. have you already decided whether you want to be a bad mother or bad minister? so that was this, this hidden prejudice. you cannot be either a good minister or a good mother. if you are working one, we all know these are these prejudices. what we have to do is make sure that the infrastructure is out there that you have for young couples. support with what is necessary in kindergarten child care and good schools. we have to make sure that till we have an equal distribution of men and women in positions of powers, i'm an advocate for quota. that's the reason why we introduced a quota in germany. that's a reason why we introduced a quote i know on the european level because the time till women kind of grow

natural through the ranks naturally through the ranks is just too long. and therefore, i've still a lot is to do, but i can only recommend to women hang on there because we need you. we need your voice and it's absolutely important that you're there. i must ask here for i must, i must, i because we are in the community security at a conference. i'm so proud that the former finish minister for, for a defense that went to a parent only. so he did make that decision to went to a parent to leave because they had a small child. so it's not it shop for mothers. it's also a chalk for fathers to take the time to spend it with your child, even though there's war in europe, even though finland is joining nato, our defense minister on the guy going and decided that his child is small only once

. and he did take the parent to leave, and i'm so happy that this is the equality and infinite one anecdote. if i make a, they're making me wrapped. but holly, okay. i had decided to have agenda based college in the commission, and i have to ask member states to send me candidates. so i told him, you sent me a man and a woman that i can. she was my commissioner for the college. you can't imagine the outcry on that one. there were member states who sent me 3 men to choose from sell in the very end. i have my agenda ballads college. so be stop, i'm and stay on the topic, then you will be successful. well, to great examples, you commission president of underline, prime minister finance on m r, and thank you very much for joining with

. alright, if you are just joining us here on dw, and usually just means and you're seeing live images coming from the munich security conference, where we have just heard from the president of the european commission, ursula founder line and the prime minister of finland. sarah marin, who is speaking to add the moderator. christiana, i'm, i'm poor. many, many topics recovered, but one topic in particular dominates, it's to say the least. and that was, of course, the war in ukraine, or i'm joined here in the studio by the dw security correspondent, thomas farro. thomas. what's your main takeaway? obviously the warn ukraine dominated bis talk as well. it was not the only topic, but the focus was a much broader one than simply europe. obviously, the key topic of discussion was this idea of

a geopolitical europe of how europe has to prepare. not only for this war, which could take longer than expected on that, which i'm now with heard from leaders in the past few hours as well. but what this means for the rest of the world in particular, are for cooperation for partnership. between that said, the european union and other regions or other countries around the world. and in fact, there was one question specifically addressed to both mrs. funder line. and this is maureen, about how to convince other countries that may have a very different view that are either neutral, that have refrain from cutting ties with russia. so was very interesting to hear what exactly they had to say about that. thomas, we're going to speak more about what you just brought up there. but what we're going to do now is cross to our colleague who is standing by 1st in munich, terry schultz who has been following this like we have here terry. great to see you . so tell us, what was your main take away from that? because as i said to thomas there, you print dominated absolutely. and having

followed nato for more than a decade and finland also for, for almost a decade. as i lived there, i was absolutely struck by the strength of san demarion's comment on russia, you know, a year ago before the invasion of ukraine. it was almost unthinkable that her country would join nato, and she herself said this would not happen within her mandate as prime minister. so to see her today, sitting on the stage and saying, you know what we should have scene years ago that russia would endanger ukraine. they were aggressive for years. she talked about a lot of the activities in cyber that finland is. a main target of, she said we should have known and we need to take lessons away from this now. so this is just something that honestly, a year ago and certainly 5 years ago, you would never hear from a finnish prime minister, a social democratic one, especially terry. you covered nato, as you mentioned there. and she went into detail about finland joining nato. of

course, one thing that jumped out at me and i want to hear your comments as well on this is with regards to finland and sweden joining nato. she said she would prefer to join together. what would your take away from, from that whole discussion with regards to the joining of luck? well, this has been a big deal just last week because there was also a meeting of defense ministers at nato headquarters and nato secretary general. yeah. and still to burg made a bit of a stir because while it's been a nato's policy all along to talk about finland and sweden joining together and the 2 countries as well. still timber came out and said, yeah, well it's not that important that they joined together just that they both get in as soon as possible. so of course the swedes and the fins on were a bit surprised by this. i've heard from, from behind the scenes that they weren't prepared for stilton berg saying that at

the minute stereo and it lead sweet and feeling like they will be left alone. now at the finish, foreign minister had to sort of hinted at this a couple of weeks ago, but then walked back those comments and both finland and sweden went back to the, to the line that they want to join together. finish prime minister san m r, and very much reinforce that today saying finland's priority is to join with sweden . but she noted, of course, that neither of the nordic countries have any control over turkey, which is determined to block sweden for as long as possible. but also we can't forget that he has not ratified the 2 countries either. although given more assurances than turkey has that it will ratify both countries to watch the space for the momentary, we'll be back to you in a moment. we're going to speak now to thomas here in the studio. so natal obviously was also a big part of this. what did you take away from that? what terry mentioned is absolutely essential, and many of our viewers around the world may be asking, well, why is it so relevant that 2 countries,

finland and sweden may be joining the alliance. and it's important to remember that for a very long time, for many, many years, both sweden and finland had actually refused to take part in international conflicts. they had actually had a more neutral stance, a stance of no participation, but the war in ukraine has changed. that and it changed very much in finland and in sweden to the extent that they decided to do something that previously was unthinkable as terry mentioned. that why it's such a big thing. that's why we having so many countries change as a result of the war in ukraine. there's the case of germany, which has been discussed a lot and how germany changed, how germany broke a lot of rules in the case of finland and sweden. this is all something particularly important. it's historic to a large extent that sweden and finland have decided to apply for nato membership. and it just gives you an idea of the extent of rush as war in ukraine. it's not only about what is happening in ukraine,

it's also about the impact that is happening in europe and in other countries around the world. thomas, let's pick a little bit more. i what was said em, from santa marin with regards to m defense capabilities. and also she mentioned a few times authoritarian countries am and she was also quite critical of the air reaction in europe to the annexation in 2014 of crimea. let's talk a little bit more about that. so this, this mention of the authoritarian countries from her and fun on founder line. well, because this has to do with the fact that there is an understanding among european leaders, that this is not only a war that affects russia, that affects europe, that affects ukraine, that it has wider implications around the world. and that it is something that could be maybe in a different way replicated if the necessary steps are not taken now to actually stop this war. santa marine, for example, was speaking of a war on values. i'm saying that this is something that in

a way could happen. you know the part of the world if it's not stop now, thomas, we're going to go back to terry shows who standing by 1st in munich, terry, if we look at what is coming up as well going forward, you're going to be there, you're going to be following it all, and we're going to be hearing as well, from camila harris and from the us and also from china. tell us what you are going to really have your ears pricked for well, i think everyone in europe is going to have their ears on comma le harris, reassuring europe that the united states is staying firm on its support for ukraine, as well as its support for europe, you know, this is something that european allies are constantly concerned about. how is the us going to, i manage its relationships, both with this continent and then with asia, of course, with conflict with china ascending everyone. everyone is concerned that attention will turn away from european allies. of course,

that never seems to happen because there's always something going on in europe that brings it back here. but i think everyone is going to be listening for comma la harris to reassure european allies. thanks, terry. over the pleasure. terry schultz who's up to munich security conference and we'll be hearing from terry thread today as well. and also thank you to thomas byron dw security correspondence who has been here in the studio with me. but before we go, we are going to just have a little quick recap of, of what, what we've been hearing. so we had clear messages from the speakers on the 2nd day of the munich security conference. the finish prime minister santa marines. message is the finland wants to join nato at the same time as sweden, and that russia must be beacon to show that war mongering in europe doesn't work. on the european commission. president ursa funder line vows to ramp up the emissions production to help ukraine be to show, which is russia judge. i hope he'd been trying. all right, we're going to take

a short break from the conference and i have to bring you the rest of today's headlines. and we'll be back in just a few minutes from now. so please stay tuned and don't forget you can follow up on youtube unsecure with with

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ah ah, this is dw use life from berlin. world leaders are gathering here in germany for the 2nd day of the munich security conference. european commission, president of the founder lions stress, is the in use commitment to ukraine and condemns what she called russian imperialism. also coming up another attack on police in pakistan but isn't a mystic.