through digital innovation, all the transformer work in health and living conditions in their country, and inspiring the world with their ideas. counted valley africa, watching out on w documentary with the war and ukraine has global implications and is increasingly becoming a clash of systems. western democracies are feeling challenged by autocracies, like russia and china. both models want to prevail. so far china's piece plan for ukraine has found little favor in the west. instead, there are warnings from the us about possible arms deliveries from china to russia, and russia's ally, alexander lucas shinkel personally traveled to china. both sides are unable to find an agreement and are according non aligned countries like g 20 host india, for example, which has seen a wave of diplomatic efforts, including

a visit by german chancellor, will have choice. so on to the point we ask war in ukraine, our new alliances dividing the world welcome to this weeks to the point i'm how are you there? yes, it's good to have you with us and i'd like to introduce our guests this week. felix is a journalist, a long time corresponded in china, and currently works for the specialized german use outlet china table, katya glo, guy as a freelance journalist and russia expert. and you shabba is my colleague from d w. joining us today from barnes to all 3 of you. thank you very much for being with us today. and i'd like to start with you each are talking about this so called war of words that we've seen also in the g 20 foreign ministers meeting that is taking place in. yes,

india is hosting the g 20 this year. and we've seen western countries and especially usa, they're trying to sewing. and this idea, this notion that this was just not about ukraine and russia, but that is it, it is a war on democracy that shared values that the west says it stands for. do you think that's the right approach to get support from other countries? well, i think it's also joe biden, who had said that the was about democracy was as a doctor, doctor sees. and the problem there is said when you do a lot in these 2 different jars, if i'm is, is, or then you don't get the support from the other countries the way you want to add up to experts. and they've told me that progressed is actually out of touch with the global south. and west needs to have a reality check in that as my country than the global south. then it's india or china and not really doing exactly what the west has expected to do. and countries

in me and you say it's your problem, the, it's a western problem really don't have much to do with that. it's a conflict that's happening far away in europe. and we don't really need to do anything about and we have our own channel problem. and especially countries in the global i'll be have a lot of other problems that they need talk about. and that's what is happening now in g. 20 india is making sure that ukraine doesn't jermaine, the main team as it has been for the last one. pretty much all the conferences and in g 20 last year. so that's the way india and the goal this out. they look at things then which is not similar to the way west, once it. and that's one perspective that they are certainly trying to change. now if we take a look at the other side, catcher, russian president vladimir putin came out to say that nato. and it's alice are trying to dismantle russia. while that may not be the goal, isn't it true that for the u. s. and maybe also for china, for example, it does seem to be a profitable, if you will, that russia is

a weaker country. if you look at russia's perspective, the conflict, even the war with or against the west and righteous war in moscow's perspective. i'm head start a long time ago, isn't, isn't years ago. and now, on the west, the so called collective west as moscow puts it, is waging a war against russia on ukrainian and territory. and russia has not only to defend herself and russian civilization against the collective west and u. s. a. he demoniac politics, but also as a peitner, so to say of the global south defending

a new mighty paula world order. i think this is the view from moscow and that meets and quite some interests also in countries in the global south who blame the collective, so west and with about hypocrisy and many problems that there are also everything for sure. and in the midst of all of this, of course, there is china, felix, if it is a class of systems, we have to look at the super powers. china presented a piece plan, ukraine, and you also presented a plan what you make of the chinese proposal. war um it clearly mod, sir, satisfying for the western countries. the proposal pretty much the positioning by china as it was, it hasn't changed much much. i mean, a china blames the west for the root,

ukrainian war doesn't criticize russian for, for starting the war. but on the same hand, china is trying to somehow get control of or of is afraid of losing control that are put in my might escalate this one even more or that even to, to might the putting system. my collapse that is the biggest fear because china is very much afraid that either way, if putting is not there anymore, that russia becomes pro western or gets a leader which is a, which is even more aggressive than putting these 2 options. shanna is afraid of. so china sees it important now to intervene somehow. and the piece plan is maybe a very tiny step, but it is a step that china wants to try to influence this conflict. china's position

certainly is complicated, and there is lots of speculation about china's intentions. at the moment a crucial player in the world stage. china has many experts guessing china's top diplomat wang visits moscow a year after the russian army invaded ukraine. he assures putin that the comprehensive strategic partnership will be strengthened further, but beijing presents itself to the well, does a neutral mediator with a 12 point plan for cease fire and peace negotiations. yet criticism of moscow's invasion does not get mentioned. how far does china's alliance with russia go? warnings are coming from the u. s. government and the are concerned that china is considering supporting russia's war effort in ukraine with lethal assistance. and this would be a real problem for shine, as written as relationships with many other countries. not just the united states. there is speculation that china could supply combat turns and munitions to russia,

especially since moscow is allegedly running out of drones from iran, but even ukrainian intelligence rejects that beijing says that stands for peace and communication. maybe about who like the u. s. is the largest provider of weapons on the battlefield in ukraine noble and he will give you in the future. how credible is china's plan for peace? that's of course a crucial question and catch a peace plan on the one hand possible arms deliveries to russia. on the other hand, what is china steam, do we know bout arms deliveries, weapons, drones. nobody really knows for sure. so we, in this context, we rely on us information. um, so there is no for say hi, truth. um, at least not so far, i think um, when it comes to russia and ukraine. um,

china in certain ways facing the dilemma as well. because on the one hand, they are kind of interested um that this war is fought because a lot of you as resources, lots of you as a tension, goes into europe into this war. and they are interested in having russia as a peitner. but as the small peitner, as the inferior peitner, as a country delivering commodities at discounted prices, that china dictates, ah, but they are not interested in an escalation of this war when it comes to the economy when it comes to supply chains. we had that last year and doing depend amex, and they're certainly not interested in a risk that vladimir putin and might or could escalate this war in

a nuclear way in by putting the button on tactical nuclear weapons. we certainly have to be careful with speculations about what china is doing, what consequences, what we see, felix, if china decided to actually provide arms to russia. well then china would definitely give up its neutral position. at the moment, the experts call it the pro russian neutrality, or it means that it doesn't criticize russia, but still remains neutral in this conflict. and this is for china, very important because of course, china is also dependent on her economy relationship with the war, with western countries, with your, with us. and if china pro delivers reels or weapons, her strong weapons to russia, this new truck, tragedy would be gone. obvious the search,

the u. s. would put up sanctions on china and this is what channel does not want. so there might be weapons from china in russia, but i don't know, it is so far. i don't see that it would make much since in china's perspective, to provide officially weapons to russia either made one little point exactly when it comes to sanctions. i mean so far, um at least from what we know and china has been following in the way the sanctions policies the west of imposed against russia. we don't know about illegal so to say deliveries of semiconductors are the pilots for weapons productions and stuff. but a, so far, but china has been very cautious and not to take side of russia by i'm going against sections that the west imposed against russia. and hence,

we've also seen lots of warnings by the united states as we also mentioned asia. what kind of sanctions could we be seeing from the u. s. or that has seems to be mobilizing politically in order to already warn everyone that china as a possibly at least considering delivering war arms to, to russia. what consequences would china face specifically, do we know? well, we don't know exactly what kind of consequences could that be. but in the last couple of years, we've already seen a lot of tension in the end of an a, b, c, u. s. and china constantly being in conflict with each other and i don't think the china would like to escalate that because that's not going to change any way. china really needs russia and china. i would want the war being done, which is also in china's fema. so i think as being neutral, china is at least pretending to be neutral in females. see so and by presenting

these 12 points, china has taken a step further, but there's nothing really complete there that could really, you know, take us into the direction of bees. and that is where adult layers i would say in the army. so there's india that's waiting for it from miss an item or the recently sent. and when all of shows was bad and new to any, that movie would like to help and with we can. and india as you know. and you'll also see that serve as the big brother when it comes to the south. so india doesn't want to miss that chance. and india certainly i knew as well that if china makes a mistake, if china does send something to russia, then jenna will lose its credibility. and what im of index trailer points on the data becomes not 20 points. i will not be in a position to say that v can be your mediator because now you become part of russia by sending our veterans debt. that is the risk. and the reason why many countries,

including india, as we just heard, have so far, abstained from very harshly condemning this war. india is the world's largest democracy, and so far it has not specifically condemned the war against ukraine are probably also due to several different interests. the latest un resolution was not voted in favor off for a variety of reasons why india and russia have maintained a close relationship for decades. moscow supplies india with around 60 percent of its arms, while the u. s. think tank estimates. it's closer to 85, even during the cold war, the soviet union supply weapons to help them fight that bitter enemy pakistan on the indian economy is hungry for energy. since the russian war of aggression against ukraine, india has imported about 5 times the amount of oil from russia than in previous years. and we will be with all goods which

at the same time the west has a growing interest in india as the largest democracy. and as an alternative to china, the country of nearly 1400000000 people will soon become the world's 4th largest economy. according to the international monetary fund, there is the desire for more business with the u. s. in europe, but not for political interference. prime minister modi recently made this position clear to chance the sholtes regarding the ukraine war is india dance, representative of the entire global south india, like many other countries in the midst of those power struggles, asia, why is india so reluctant to clearly position itself in this war when it comes to russia, india and josh only have a very long days and they go back decades. we can have

a complete episode on that. so no, not get into that. but the in, in foreign minister has been seeing a lot of thing in the last few months, which really explain what india stands is for one. the statement that he gave last year and then the rest has to change its mind. said that the west problems are the was problems, but there was problems are not this problem. that means it needs to be changed. he said bad and that a lot of media outlets said that he sounded extremely out again by seeing that. but the see that those words were actually recorded in the munich security report and urban johnson of all of shaws, also quoted him. and he said he has a point. so that's where vest sees that are, okay, we are actually losing fat with the global south. and india being the by in years old to say of google sound is giving us a message and we have to beat that seriously. another thing that the foreign minister institution go has been stressing is that what ever a decision indian dates in deland only keep in mind it's deeper endeavor. only keep

in mind what does god for it's population. and india is not a very rich country. india is still in emerging economy and very important economy is, are in competition with china. but india is still not only to nation. and so india has to be decisions that are important for its people. and that is the, uh, the whole argument here. and in the i see that you're not going to let anybody dividers in blocks. in fact, i remember, foreign minister even been gone, perceive that blocks is a very, very stern dumb analogy, a lady best and understanding of the geopolitical ordered. and that's the invest, looks at things, but india and the global. so they do not look at things like that because they have their own problems to deal with this hunger. this bar would be, there's education, a lot of things in the energy 20 countries and the countries in the south. they need to focus on and hands in just wants to keep from everything that's happening

right now. except it wants to mediate if given a chance. that's exactly the point. many countries also in latin america, for example. we've seen it in mexico, we've seen it in brazil, simply do not want to be on either camp. that's how at least, how it seems. felix, why do you think there is so much pressure from the so called western nations to get all these countries on board? well, what the west is trying is trying to isolate, of course, russia and the u. s. also has this goal to try to isolate china, which is much, much more difficult. i mean, china is, is the number one global player. now it's, it has economy ties to almost every country in this world. and a yes and, and since the u. s. is trying to make china as a big enemy in all,

most other countries have problems with that you've been. countries already have problems with that. but so especially the other countries, emerging countries and also the countries of the global thought towards russia. i think it's a little bit simpler for a lot of countries to take fight. maybe also to take a pro western side. but what they also have experience is they don't share the same interest in a lot of subjects, topics. but one goal the share is that they don't want to get too independent from the u. s. and that is why the reason they take this opportunity with a crisis in ukraine to show do u. s. hey, we have our own voice. we don't want to be just a puppet from, from washington. there's also a lot of historic resentment towards the united states and many regions of the world. of course. do you think that's one of the reasons why this strategy doesn't

seem to be working that well. there might be historical reason, so to say, although the experience of many countries in the global south, especially in africa or southeast asia, vietnam is that the soviet union's propaganda and talk about the colonizing the, the world and helping the poor countries to free themselves from the american hegemony, hedge money that this was double speak as well. i mean, they remember this quite clearly. but for them, for the global south, um it is in a way, a chance with the kind of new self confidence to express their interest to say, hey a, you don't know us yet. and we are defending our interests

and our interest is um to act for our populations when it comes to education, when it might come to women's rights when it comes to fighting the climate crisis, which is certainly the issue number one. and we're not talking about democracy and autocracy, and or this is, this is a separate issue. but there is this new self confidence of many countries in the global south. and i would argue that this is not a bad thing. certainly having the self confidence is not a bad thing is or do you think that equation didn't really work out thinking that just because a country is a democracy or because it stands for say, human rights, for example, um or individual liberties that it doesn't automatically go on the needle side,

in this case. no, it does not. and coming back to that point, a lot has changed in the global south. in the last decades economically, the countries have developed and they are in a much more powerful position. they know that a does india or china india truly know that the world and especially the rest, depends on them. international trade heavily depends on them. and so now they want to make a statement that you can't ignore the agency of the global south any more, which maybe you've done in the past, but that can't happen any more. and these neutral countries are major players and global economy. so as you see, it's the 1st stage that emerging economies build a whole g 20 residency for 4 years in a row. you had indonesia last year. you have india this year. you have received an exterior south africa the year after that. and that has never happened, that itself is a statement that the vote audit is shifting and that these countries did not have to do everything that not all of this is trying to do them. so basically what it

means is that the best needs to be pink, how it is going to have all these countries on their side. it can just give its own explanation and expect that the other countries will follow. and the discourse still seems to be one of unity. felix, what do you think when you look forward? will this cause more divisions worldwide? if at some point countries will have to choose either side? well, definitely, if we're talking about the multi multi polar world, it's getting more complicated also. i mean it's fair enough that not the west is only dictating what the world all supposed to be. but of course, it's getting much more complicated and, and the west has to cope with it has to change his attitude has to except that for example, china is not a democracy, authoritarian country, but 2222. isolate china,

you, you are in, you will not be able to, to, to deal with all the big problems we have. for example, climate change. and i think there's only this on doesn't only concern china, but also a lot of countries in this world. and this has, this is the big challenge. the west has to deal precious aggression and ends, ukraine. this horrible war certainly led to a new unity also when it came or comes to democratic well use of the west. it's a europe and the united states, or nato countries, a new nato, a members on the one hand, and this unity and solidarity. it's certainly really important in that sense. the atlantic is shrinking so far. but i'm, i'm still, i'm really very worried because russia is by way not that isolated

as we think it, we, in germany or in europe would think that she is. we talked about this. and i'm also worried because we don't really know who would be the next president in the united states. and, but that, that shrinking distance of the over the atlantic will enlarge all of a sudden to a horrible distance. we certainly can only hope for the best to all 3 of you. thank you very much. isa felix katya. for the insights to you, of course, for watching. and remember, you can always comment on videos on youtube biased glue searching d w to the point to proceed. next time. take care bye with

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