a documentary series saunders valley africa to meet the founders and pulling their continent through digital innovation transformer, work and health and living conditions in their country and inspiring world with their ideas. only valley africa watching out on the w documentary with as much as war of aggression against ukraine ranges on the battlefield. it is also using dis, information campaigns to promote false narrative in a conflict on special immunity security conference. i spoke with the czech republic, foreign minister, nato's assistant secretary general, google's president of global affairs, and a south african did information specialist. how can the truth when the battle

against his information? ah, hello everyone, and welcome to dis information, navigating the battle of narratives. we're here at the munich security conference, and we have a very distinguished panel. and mister foreign minister, i'd like to begin with you because dis, information is a big part of russia's war in ukraine as they attempt to dominate the narrative around the world. and i'm just going to get one example kremlin blood propaganda blaming a global food crisis on e. u sanctions has spread in africa and in the middle east. so when we're looking at the czech republic, when you're looking at the situation, how big do you see the security threat of this information? it's a huge, it's a huge concern. and so, but we should to acknowledge that this is some, not something new. this kind of information warfare, as it is understood why russians they play this book at least once century. how so we have little bit forgotten. oh,

to fight with that and what is the proper cool? it's not different in the digital age. absolutely. it's the same as in the h of newspaper for radio. radio for people are gossiping people, thinking roles thinks, asking questions, great thing and crafting calls groceries. so what is the proper answer in the digital age, when everything is very quick and fast, that we need to have a capacity to react? states needs to have capacity to react and turn to be truthful to the fighter. and we understand that your country is actually, i'm debating right now criminalizing the intentional dissemination of this information. so i'm gonna ask you little more about that a little bit further in the conversation. but 1st, i like to turn to the assistant secretary general of nato to get to get your view here. and i'm going to add another piece of this information into the max. now, this is from pro kremlin sources which say that nato is not only threatening russia, but may even wish to invade it. so when you see that,

where do those threats that this information, i stand on the spectrum of security risks right now for the alliance? well, thanks a lot. nato also was accused by russians of creating the earthquake in turkey just to put things out there. so it's, i mean, everything that this happened happening in the world is in a way fault of either the us or natal in the world of russia and her for us. again, as the minister said that, nothing you that has been there forever for nato and, and that's part of russia's political warfare. but in the same time, of course, are on our side on nato's side. we clearly identify information. we clearly identify that the means how to defend ourselves as part of the instrument of power . so when we look at the whole spectrum of instruments of power, what we have is diplomacy. we have information, we have military,

instrument of power, economic, legal, and so and so forth. and only the information is across boss, civil and military spectrum. what it means is said information contributes to the implementation of nato's mission. nato, as a defense of alliance is based on the un charter article, 51. if there is armed attack, the collective defense principle comes in. and that is what nato is about. so we do defend also in information sphere by making sure that we know what is happening. so invest a lot in information environment understanding. but we also do a lot of calm making sure that our core tasks, the turns the fence of our populations, the crisis management, incorporate the security that it's all reflected in what we do. so we are being proactive. so there is the whole spectrum of activities that we make sure that our populations our, our stated are threat thrush, interest groups and,

and partners know what nato, isabel penzel am turning to you. now, i would like to ask you, because you've really seen firsthand, actually in your country, south africa, what happens with these campaigns to one in particular, to stoke racial hatred and unrest in the country through your activism. you were actually a contributor to kicking out a major p r firm that, that was behind that. and i'm wondering that experience that you had. how has that informed now, what you're seeing going on in the continent where we're seeing russia and china make major inroads when it comes to disseminating dis information and, and gaining a foothold. and those narratives often feeding into each other as well. yeah, and so from my kind of work against disinformation to south africa, got to see 1st hand as you, as you've career correctly said. and but nowadays the danger of disinformation is electoral interference. am as the story in the god and revealed and the was the

look toral, of interference in the canyon election. so what my kind of great to point is that there needs to be far greater focus on the african continent. am so as a basis to spread kind of an anti ukraine at this information on social media. a lot of african accounts are being used. so that's the kind of playground and arena that they're using to spread this information to. i'd like to see the conversation moving beyond just the u. s. or the u, and going into africa and the deadliest war right now isn't if you appear and that one's not getting enough attention, i'd really like to see a greater focus from the global community on the homes that are being caused on the african counted by disinformation by russia at through disinformation, by china, through the purchase of media outlets. so i think that's where the greatest threat

is and a lot of attention needs to be focused. okay, thank you so much. um, you know, on this panel we have a lot of public representation, but also of course, private representation. i can't, i'm turning to you, of course i'm youtube's reach. there's more than 2000000000 active users on the platform we understand. ah, last year the international sac checking network, i'm representing more than 80 organizations. they had the following warning, and i just like to read out the quote, one of the major condiments of online dis, information, and miss information world wide. is youtube. they said that it is not addressing the problem. fair criticism. i think we're making dramatic strides in improving the quality of content online. a google search at google news, our antidote to fake news. in most cases, not that we always get a ride, but we are working every day to make sure that the quality of the content,

the authority, evidence of the content on all of our platforms, i is reliable and trustworthy. the challenge on the product like youtube, where users are uploading of whole variety of content, hundreds of hours every minute has been to identify problematic content and remove it quickly. and the good news is that the progress has been dramatic. so we have gone from a few years ago having one view and a 100 on the you to platform filing are policies to one if you want a 1000 using advanced artificial intelligence, enhanced enforcement techniques, et cetera. so we are continuing to progress that we recognize, particularly in a war situation. the old line is that truces the 1st casualty of war, there will be more and more efforts to try and spread this information on all platforms. it's one of the reasons why very quickly, after the invasion, we removed our t, t and other platforms. we actually saw the moving from europe in united states into africa. we did this on a global basis. however,

we have now removed thousands of channels from youtube and tens of thousands of videos that are conveying dis information. so we're making progress, but jobs are done. let me ask you a little bit more about how you're making that progress though, because you know, there are reports that last month. for example, this is reporting from the new york times that you tube quietly reduced its small team of policy experts in charge of handling misinformation. and here's what the critics say. i can't, they say that they're concerned that you're putting the bottom line above the public. good in the battle to combat this information. so what do you tell them right now? we're an environment with economic headwinds. sure. if it's clearly not the case, we have tens of thousands of people working across google and youtube. reviewing this and this information are the time story you refer to, the evidence was a team of 5 people, of whom 3 had been moved out out of 20 or 30000 people working on this problem. and the more important area is beyond the number of people, it's the amount,

the number of engineers and a i tools we can put against this from. that's what allows us to quickly identify and remove problem had a contract. so i would say our investment in siri has grown dramatically and continues to grow from solar. i like you to jump in here and perhaps i respond to what we've been hearing from from can't because it's something that i mentioned a little bit earlier. your founder of south africa's 1st electoral disinformation monitoring project. um, what more would you like to see from, from the big tech platforms in, are you satisfied with what you're hearing? yeah, i mean this a lot of work big tick platforms could do. i am and i think to be fair, google's one of the better ones and, but we've seen a lot of disinformation spreading from facebook from twitter. and i think the great problem in africa, and like in the, you or the u. s. where there's been legislation in a lot of african countries,

people don't necessarily understand why this is important. and i think there's lots of concerns around basic bread and butter issues that people don't necessary appreciates what a grave danger disinformation is beyond kind of reluctant all this information and manipulating the public discourse. but actually fanning was am. so i think there is so much more platforms could do one, a basic thing is having content, moderation and beyond just english, but in languages that are spoken in africa. so that's a huge problem with identified. and, and we've noticed that there just seems to be very little care of what's happening in the online space from social media platforms, assistant secretary and i like you to also weigh in and then i will hear from the foreign minister. oh no, on the private sector, i think it's part of the problem as was rightly identified, but it's also part of the answer. currently, we will not be able to get to

a society that are resilient with both the governments or the, the individuals, the groups, the private individual education system have an understanding of how to treat information as part of everyday life. like we treat cyber leg retreat, other hybrid threats was all the private sector. so actually the trainings investment in, in literally every day security features for people at a certain age and the training is, is crucial. again, every country, every society will do it differently. but responsibility lies was, every one, it lies was begin to national organizations like nato, to make shoes at oak or tasks. the defense of citizens against external, like, aggression, is, is implemented. but also it, it's her this responsibilities through the private sector because obviously,

and we have seen, as you said, was a number of platforms. i don't understand smaller languages identifying the hostile or disinformation patterns as they don't take the content seriously in smaller languages. because markets are smaller, they don't treat advertisements as a way. so there is space for improvement. i think in, in a lot of places there, sir, could i miss her up for just a moment? and i just want to hear briefly from the foreign minister 1st. and what i wanted to ask you was, you know, the e u has recently, ah, revamped its anti dis information ah, code am as part of the digital services act and, and some of the criticism of that is that it, it largely relies on, on voluntary measures deep, what do you need to see from the bay tag platforms and you have any hope actually that, that, that approach might work. you know, i agree that i have seen

a lot of this information on facebook and on youtube. but in my case, the, the biggest number of this information i ever heard was from my mother in law. so are we to regulated somehow? i don't think so. and so therefore, it goes to, are you still married? it goes to, ah, how the whole society works and how the whole fabric of society works. and of course, the digital platforms are important messengers and other new actors in that. and in traditional media, we know how to our, all the, our regulate the content of it. or on the other side, or we are learning that for the digital platforms. and i think the act you mentioned is the way how to find the contents of the society or how to approach to algorithm or so we don't. 05. we don't, we don't apply censorship as such, but certain

a certain algorithms doesn't need to promote it to, to everywhere. and we are also learning how the emotions in society works in a new way. and because the digital platforms are very effective, spreading emotions. so that would be my input into that you ask about the debate in chicky, i bowed her about this new law. it's a very premature to debate. i don't think the, the need to criminalize or something which is already in a criminal called of a far more democracy. so in the market, the countries you can lie, but you cannot lie in a way that is cause harmful effect. right. i think this is the most important distinction which awful applies for spreading or spreading cur does information misinformation, etc. at the sarah. so the platforms are important part of that, and i think her google is doing her fair share. and i think all the time, i think it was maybe like 5 years back when we really had

a serious debate with bic, that if this companies will take responsibility for effects will do perform so doing, i think they are now accepting know that that's my view. on that and i will. okay. thank you. can, can i'm going to let you jump in, but i also want to add, perhaps a little bit of food for thought here and shift our conversation to the race a, dominate a i right now, a huge conversation around these chat thoughts. they're out there, especially ah, chat g p t. we have a people calling it some of them, the most powerful tool for spreading miss information on the internet that it has the potential to do so we understand google has an arrival bard as well. ah, legislators are sounding the alarm where are the safeguards? so let me start by responding very quickly to prior pals and come back to this question. i very much share the notion of platforms having a shared responsibility with governments in addressing this, this problem. so for example, in chakiya as well as us lakia, poland,

and soon in germany we have want something called pre bunking, which is trying to work together to make people more resilient against the risk of fake news. disinformation, things like overly emotional pitches, or one sided presentations. youtube has a program called hit pause, which is reaching out to a 1000000000 users to say before you buy off on something, hit pause, do your own research, double check, get the facts. we've actually seen numbers that people are in fact influenced by this and are more resilient, more skeptical of some of the claims we're seeing out there. so i think we can, there are ways of a, from replaying offense and plum. so back to your point, we're proud that we've expanded the, the google translate tool up to now i think something like 400 languages. this is allowing us, in addition to the 80 or so language as we are already covering in europe, to expand into africa, the middle east had a deep asia pacific region, et cetera. so it's an important area of research and more than research actually bring it to product. now sarah, back to your question. the,

as there's obviously been a lot of work around the m a. i generally, and large language models. in particular, this is a technology that google pioneered in 2017 and the call transformers the, to pay off from that innovation has been dramatic. we tend to focus on the chat bots, but it's also important to realize that this is bring a huge advances in science and technology. precision agriculture, nuclear fusion, personalized medicine. it's people who have studied computer science, their entire career, so they have never seen anything like the inflection point. we're at now. now with those incredible promises comes the risk of abuse and misuse. a i plays on both sides to this equation. we are able to identify misinformation much more quickly because we use a i, tools, and workspace, and how we're using them and using them in languages around the world without a i, we couldn't do nearly the job we do today. but you're also right that the synthesis,

the and the dissemination of these tools that allow people so many more people that everybody has their own megaphone create a new set of social challenges. some legal as addressed some technological on our side product design and some in terms of social norms push pamela way. and i think the challenge posed by a i and particularly chat bytes em, i don't see it as at all as something very easy to deal with. and particularly for regulators because they all these changes coming up all the time in the can't keep up. so in terms of dealing with it, with that and neither whole of society approaches, the foreign minister appointed at ad that my then law example, i've become kind of the fact very fire for my est. my then has circle of friends, you know, they send everything i have to say, no vaccines will not do that. no, you're not being microchips. so i think there's that, i think with a greater response beyond the platforms beyond the regulators and just for

communities. and i like the idea of investing and plead banking because that's actually the most powerful tool. because when something has gone viral, it's really, really difficult to de bank. so there needs to be more investment and digital literacy. and so i think everyone has a role to play academia. some of the fact de regulates as platforms. i like to get the view now from nato, from the assistant secretary journal. i mean, when you're looking at actor can, can i just and quickly quickly comments on. yeah. on zillow, what say i could sign what you were saying because really, that is own approach. because literally, you have to really understand information and william and not only in your own country, but also whatever external, internal, hostile inflammation activities. because again, was the intent of release. and, and because for example, in russia's case, they use a whole selection of power of instruments of power including kinetic,

for nato. the answer is also the whole spectrum of instruments of power that have to be ready. militarily, we have to be ready on diplomatic front. we have to be ready on, on the legal from that so and so forth. and that applies to the allies that applies to the governments to the societies, to the every unit of the society. and, and in that respect, what we call resilience societies. the whole government, a whole society approach, easy only approach and again, south african challenges are different and you spoke of those challenges and i fully agree. but again, that's a whole society approach. there is nothing else said today will work because the whole way, how we process, how we work with information, how we are influenced, how we influence others, has changed. it's not going to go back anymore. and, and private sector is an essential, essential element in that security, a security provider for our societies, mr. farm. and sir, do you think we have an appropriate sense of urgency right now about what might be

coming down the been for us? i think we do. i'm the action, so done home i'll do level of you or do working group, what is information to eastern trot. com her during the beginning of the chic presidency through you? oh, some some conclusions on that for although also ah done. so um, yes, we do have a, we understand it. ah, paradoxically, lou russian imperial war again for you crying is helping us to see. oh, waltz. the real danger is we're are nearing at the end of the live stream portion of our conversation. i just like to pose a challenge right now on to our panel and perhaps leave on an optimistic note on the future and pumps loudly to begin with you on the focus of the munich security conference this year is on revision. so that means working toward

a much more attractive version of the rules based order. when it comes to dis information. what do you think needs to be done to make truth more profitable and or more attractive than dis information? what opportunities do you see? and if you could answer in 2 sentences, that would be amazing. yeah. so my, my, my kind of focus as part of the kind of the greater global community air against this information is on the african continent. and the initiatives that i am going to kind of be working with others that will society partners. this is going to african elections and setting up just information projects. and those projects aren't certainly focused on digital monitoring or fact checking. but kind of in sterling, a whole of society, kind of an approach to protecting elections against as information. so if what my message would be is the platforms need to pay a little bit more attention to what's happening in africa. the global community

needs to pay more attention to what's happening in africa and provide support to those on the ground fight at doing legwork and important message can ah, to sentences. oh, we have to have effect both the supply and the demand side of the equation. if we want to make truth more profitable, we need to change social expectations and desire for wanting to get high quality information regardless of the tool ai algorithms or what you're reading a daily press. we talk about being bold and responsible. that has to be a shared obligation. again, as we talked about the that the secretary general's was speaking about. how do we figure out how to work together to have a new era of media literacy among our populations, and a new era of social responsibility among platforms and government? madam assistants are a secretary general and one things. the good news is that russia is failing, not only in the kinetic or rushes, also failing in information war. we see that we paul,

the audiences in nato countries. really, neither russia or china is succeeding. so that's why they have, they are trying all types of other desperate measures, splitting societies, creating cows fragmentation, everything has to be not believed, trust, not trusted, everything has to be questioned and so on, so forth. so creating a situation where there is no truth. so we need truth heroes. we need heroes that are popular. speaking truce in all societies from south africa to iceland and elsewhere. foreign minister are those heroes elected officials. i think 2 o 2 issues can be false, not easily but false, for full de monetization. many. oh, content creator platforms makes money from his information. if this is target, it will, it would help to decrease the level spreading and accountability we need to be

working on that so that the hard for flying is not a for free. that includes our panel dis, information, navigating the battle of narratives. thank you so much to everyone here on the stage. thank. ah ah, ah, ah.

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ah ah ah, business dw news live from berlin, russia elise is a massive missile barrage on ukraine explosions and keith and across the country target energy infrastructure. and it residential buildings will have the latest from our correspondent in the ukrainian cap.