current g, more people than ever on the move world wide in such a better life. one of us and so it as a committee, god that hello. he goes. yeah. actually not the noun. is it a mac on the not the got a noun, the god value for condense to pay the thing nanda key bernice him on back to the them. find out about robina story info, my grand reliable news for migrant. wherever they may be. migration to europe is once again searching. you. authorities reported a $133000.00 irregular border crossings last year. the highest number since 2016. most of those fling seek to come by see 2 recent shipwrecks in the mediterranean attests to the peril they face the deaths and provoke, harsh criticism of europe's broken policy. yet some leaders want to crack down

harder. the u. k, for example, will pay france more than half a 1000000000 euros to stop illegal crossings of the english channel. yet at the same time, countries facing urban, urgent labor shortages like germany, want to create more legal pathways for skilled migrants. so we're asking destination europe can migration the controlled with hello and welcome to, to the point. it is a pleasure to greet our guests. gerald now is founding chairman of the european stability initiative, e. s. i make on and messina is head of the migration and diversity department at germany's high english, both foundation and vent. alina fun. credo is european business and finance corresponded for the economist magazine. icon in more and more migrants are

choosing that very perilous route to europe across the central mediterranean. why? what striving them? what we know this, this border is a deadly border, one of the deadliest borders in the world. unfortunately, and seal it is the pressure which pushes people to go through this hardship and the people have the information. it's not that the people don't know the hardships they have to go through. so through the militia controlled libya, all these violence against human rights and the military and see the pushback, well, you formation is there. however, the pressure people are feeling beat political, be the war, beats economical, be the climate. so that is the pressure which push people into this dangerous situation. let me ask you about

a claim that has recently been made by italy's defense minister, who says that russia, wagner mercenary group, which is active not only in ukraine, but also in some african countries, is actually weaponized migration to try to undermine and destabilize the you, you think that's right, we have to see the whole package, russia, not only the regular group, but the pressure is using anti europe sentiments, anti colonial sentiments, and anti western sentiments. and wagner group is just one element of this, anti european and there were sentiments. russia is using in many african countries . miley, in northern africa, in the south africa. and if we see who cited with russia during the u, the u. n. resolution including atria, all these countries are citing because they have some sentiment of anti western

politics. and russia is using this potential including immigration for flight. so we have to see within a broader concept of anti western cent and also using these to weapon eyes and to destabilize probably the west rush of course, is also weaponized hunger, which as you said, is one of the drivers for those flows. girl, you and the think tank that you founded. yes, i are well known for the innovation, innovative solutions that you put forward in the aftermath of the big influx of refugees in europe into europe in 2015, 2016 is the current situation building toward the same kind of crisis we saw. then i think in many respects it's a very different crisis or it's the biggest refugee movement in europe since the forty's, but that's largely 80 percent because of legally arriving ukrainian refugees. if we

focus on those who arrive irregularly across the mediterranean, the numbers last year, all the way from spain to italy, malta, cypress, greece, they've reached europe, was around the 160000. that's a high number. we had a lot of deaths, again, 2000. but that is no comparison to do 15. when we had a 1000000 people just come to greece. what is also different is that a lot of things that have been tried, have clearly failed, closing the balkan route, austria more applications last year of asylum than 6 years ago. italy, we have a fall, right? be interior minister close to the former far right. interior minister sardine, who talks against and yos, but the people who arrive now don't come with n g o rescue boats. they come directly. we have a prime minister, wants to close the root, but actually wyatt, since he is prime minister, more people reached italy than ever before. so the rhetoric, this kind of rhetoric doesn't work. and finally, we have in germany, i think

a very interesting debate that the only way to have solutions if we, if a bold comes and if we want to reduce people, getting into boats is a combination of offering legal ways for refugees. and people want to work combined with agreements to take people, beck with safe countries through reduced incentives to come. and i want to come to, to those kinds of proposals in just a moment, but then to lin, let lena, let me ask you about something that carol just mentioned. namely, the large inflow of ukrainian refugees into europe. observers might wonder about these contradictory faces of european asylum and migration policy, because on the one hand, there were open arms for nearly 5000000 ukrainians who poured in in the course of last year. and on the other hand, politicians are vying to close the gates when it comes to migrants from outside europe. does it simply boil down to racism or what's going on here?

i think that's too simplistic. i mean, it is very close. i mean, we, at the board of poland and then the next country is ukraine says, so this war is happening very close to us and very close to our hearts. i mean, people have relations in poland, them. they may have relations in ukraine. you know, it's, and these are people like us, so it's so, so that, that, that, i think in terms of the sentiment expanded, plesk, you know, the ukraine's are fighting in a way for germany's freedom for germany's faith safety. i think that's another element. so people have been very generous all over europe. i mean, 5000000 is very high number. and i think that's admirable. i mean, you know, you've, you've seen people really opened their houses, give people their sofa, you know, it's, it's, it's something easy but, but it's been as sort of an amazing a manifestation of, of hospitality and generosity. i think that's, that can only be seen in a positive light but, but that there is a difference. so there is a difference there sort of course,

the idea that ukrainians will eventually go back. that's still the hope, you know, and that's, and most refugees who come here want to go back. not only ukraine and such true for many other countries. but as luck, the longer they stay, the less, you know, the less likely they are to actually really return. nick on and how do you this see, it's certainly a europe's contradictory policies do. open it to charges of racism and those charges have been made differently. there is some racism in that approach. and once they do have freely to welcome the way how europe reacted. what's your training or if you just that was exemplary. and this exemplary approach and process should have been applied to other if you just as well. there was a great hope that we could have learned from this generosity from this very liberal approach towards refugees accessing the labor market, accessing the housing market, et cetera. and i think the welcoming gesture and culture we have

seen her towards euclidean, we have seen it in the 2015 in 2016 process as well. so there was a big gesture. but how is politics like using this potentially the welcoming potential towards or, or refugees or people seeking for protection. so i see there is a mismatch tor, when, when it comes to different groups. so to koreans, politics was also very open. but when we come to people population, i see there is a lot of potential in a positive gesture towards refugees and people's seeking for the future. let's take a closer look at the situation of those refugees who are coming by the, or the central mediterranean, the forced pushback of boats that were attempting the shorter meditate training and crossing to greece. and cyprus has, in fact,

driven ever more migrants to attempt this very dangerous mediterranean crossing we just heard from economy. it is considered one of the most dangerous roots of migration in the world. that makes shipwrecks like the most recent ones, an accident waiting to happen. an illegal crossing of migrants to europe ended last month with a wrecked boat off the southern italian coast. this is only one tragedy among many last year. according to the you and hcr, some 2000 people died fleeing to europe. they mostly arrive on overcrowded boats from asia or africa, and their numbers are increasing. this year about 20000 migrants have already been registered in italy alone, almost 2 thirds more than in the previous 2 years. but many countries in europe can't or won't take in any more refugees. in addition,

italy recently passed along that severely restricts the activity of rescue ships in the mediterranean sea. lonely covered our call. the only thing that has been said repeatedly of is that they should not be fleeing to it with, but this is our 1st and foremost, an ethical message. don't leave your homes, but what's the abilities to which to tens your logo, actual life? for of leo you will, you will take the decision to, to go to the see. i'm sorry, this is the real can europe stem, the growing influx of refugees goes off with that question straight to you? yes. but only with public support. and the paradox is that the public and we're seen it also the united kingdom reacts very negatively to small numbers that crossed by boats from france while being very generous to take in people through re

settlement. also, the united kingdom people have said we volunteered to have your cravings in our house. we've seen that in australia, migrant country, created by mass migration, very, very united around stopping small boats with very small numbers. so that, that the paradox is that people are afraid of small numbers because of irregular rivals because they suggest a sense of loss of control. but there is empathy on which one can build if one organizes it. so they're small boats are clearly very symbolic, especially for right wing politicians like the one we just heard in that report. you've referred to the political aftermath of the 2015 refugee crisis as a success story. but there is one factor that is quite different now, isn't it? namely, the rise of right wing sentiment in a number of european countries. how much does that change the prospects for, for pragmatic solutions?

i mean, i've always been far right proposals into 15 presented by victor, or bon and into 18 presented by the italian than interior minister. the trouble to day is not that the far right is empowering more countries. it is that the centrist parties have run out of ideas and are now doing or condoning policies at the borders, which were in germany only presented by the i v. the far right german party in 2016, but which are now implemented at that use external border and germany's even germany is not openly criticizing it. so the real threat we, we have here is it goes far beyond the wreckage issues. it goes to the rule of law, europe as laws, conventions, human rights commitments that we are breaking systematically at our borders at this is supported by governments of all political backgrounds and that is the crisis. because that undermines the very basis on which europe is built. let's pick up on

that point and link it up to ethical and moral obligations. mclennan, you have long said that europe has an absolute moral obligation to rescue those who are in peril on the sea. yet italy's government or has come under sharp criticism for restricting humanitarian organizations ability to do so. and in that report, we heard in italian politician saying no, the ethical obligation is on the migrants themselves to stay at home. this is very cynical to be very honest. course some countries of origin have the obligation to do everything to give people a better perspective their home countries. so i see really is a great responsibility and obligation on the countries of origin, not on migrants, migrants are just reacting to what is happening in those countries own human rights violence, war, climate change, which we are also responsible for the climate change. so there is in the lot of

responsibility on, on the international community, but not really enjoy and individuals. the other thing is, what is obligation when it comes to supporting refugees and also people who are looking for protection. every country has an obligation including the european union, so people flee at the 1st place to the neighboring countries. that way they stay for a certain period of time, looking for a prospective to go back. that is the 1st option, b in the syrians, in jordan, or in lebanon, or in the 3rd key, or it is free on scoring to sudan and to if you appear, et cetera. once the prospectives diminish, people go to the next step and then take all the risks, you know, the risks of for her on the danger of the military and see and so on. that's where europe comes into, into the game. so either we stop, you know, the,

are establishing the disturb, losing situation is in those countries. so we do not react, but we act from the beginning. that is also part of the responsibility, not only taking refugees, but also to really tackle the issues people are forcing to leave their homes. so these a broader range of responsibilities, ventilator that's long been a mantra, including of german development policies. we, you know, we have to reach out and try to fix those long term push factors as, as they're often called. but that's a long term. that's a long term matter. and what we're seeing here is short term pressure, short term desperation. i mean, as a long term project, i think it's still good, of course, and it's, it's, it's the right way of thinking about it. but, but we are dealing with our short term crisis and we need solutions now. and what governments are doing at the moment, including the recent agreement between britain and france,

and i think i will talk about that later, is just exactly the wrong way to go about it. very interesting. that's exactly what i want to talk about right now. the ferment as great britain is among those that are vying to be seen as tough on migration, with some help from its friends across the english channel. this handshake seals harder times for migrants. france and britain have struck a deal to stop migrants from crossing the channel illegally and the u. k. prime minister richie so knock has promised his french counterpart emmanuel mccaul, more than half a 1000000000 euros. we're announcing a new detention center in northern france. and you command center, bringing our enforcement teams together in one place for the 1st time, and an extra 500 new offices patrolling front featured 45000 migrants crossed the english channel to reach great britain last year,

an increase of nearly 60 percent over the previous year they arrive in inflatable boats despite the british government's harsh mornings. that those who come here illegally cannot stay under the new asylum law, the migrants paste detention as well as deportation to gra wanda, or other countries. so far that has not been implemented due to legal hurdles. critics fear that the right to apply for asylum is being curtailed. while the you case tough asylum policy become a model for the you what do you think, cherry, gerald? how would you assess this deal? and alina has told us, it is not the solution. what he's oh, no, it is a complete bluff. ah, and what is striking actually is that last year, more people left france with boats to the united kingdom, the left africa to go to spain or left turkey, to go to greece. i mean, this is one of the biggest, irregular movements. and one of the reasons is that there has not been

a single return of any one who reaches the united kingdom from france. since the united kingdom left to the you and left her the, the dublin system which never worked well, is obedient, being the overall european union system, france are worth some distributing refugee. exactly. so what we have is that anybody who gets into boat and reaches the united kingdom and they are all discovered, they don't come in secretly, but that's not a problem. anybody reaches the united kingdom, stays there. and that means that the idea that more french police are there just stops, boats will be the solution is, is a farce. because people can try 567 times, and france can't lock them up legally. what we need to do, and i don't understand why to democracies are not able. so finding the solution is that france or the european union of france, kid, we didn't unilaterally offered to the united kingdom. we take back everybody from this state, 1st of april, who crosses and reaches the okay quickly,

because france is safe. you don't need to leave france. in return, the united kingdom should agree to give a chance for legal excess, for 40000 people a year. less than crossed last year that are in the european union already there can apply, and that can then leave without risking their life and without smugglers. so the united kingdom show solidarity. it takes still less refugees than germany or france, but it takes refugees orderly. but france and the okay combined to take away the incentive to get into a boat and pay smugglers thousands of euros. and dead solution is the only one that can produce a result in the, in the, in the next few months. because what the u. k is planning with randa, will not work for a very long time. perhaps in a year they would start to have the 1st plane what they try to do, the frank with the french to give them 50000000w5cw euros for 3 years to then keep people back. that's very much like what europe has tried to do with morocco and it didn't work very well. it certainly looks like outsourcing the problem or may come

in and tell us whether you think a solution that way, like what we just for heard from gerald, would in fact be a better approach. and then i'd also like to talk a little bit about the deportation and return issue because in fact the european commission just reported that last year, only 20 person one percent of those who were not granted asylum in the e. you were actually returned to their countries of origin whitmore, b deportation, which is what the commissioner is calling for with that actually begin to solve this problem in some way. well, in any way you all moves towards outsourcing never walked. you know, we, we have all these examples of billus connie, corporate, we've got our fee so many examples, which didn't work at all. that's all tossing problems. wouldn't work at all because people would always try again and again to reach their final destination. so beads,

italy outsourcing the problems to libya or yuki to france or denmark, and yuki and esau into wonder, whatever, whatever you do. if people are not granted perspectives to stay around the home country with a better opportunity to go back to their really origin country was better perspectives, nothing would walk. there were always sick for opportunities. most of those people who had been deported, for example, from israel to wonder the emigrated to the u. s. and to do to europe again. so even if you have a better dealing conditions between u. k and denmark and whoever it is was the wonder even if it is a really good coordinated people who would not stay there because there is no better perspectives for them and those situations and countries. so i think we have to look into the situation from the perspective of their refugees and immigrants and other just really to also play other instruments like resettlement,

where they have a more acceptance between among the population because they see these are just people who are in need of protection, so we need new approach with old instruments. the instruments are not new at all, but we need just new approach than to lean. i'd like to very briefly pick up on something that gerald said as we talk about a solutions he said, the real problem is not the rise of the far right. the problem is that even liberal democracies are beginning to to doubt, to lose faith in the system as a whole. do you think that a country like germany, which in fact has been a bulwark of liberalism? in many ways do you see it going the path, for example of sweden, where we are seeing a real crackdown now. i don't think you can exclude it. you know, i, i hope the center will hold. and the big mistake, for instance,

a country like austria, it is they try to then copy those are the centrist parties order, in particular the center, right pad is tried to copy the policies of the far right, thinking they will, you know, wind over some voters that would normally goes as far as that's the wrong. that's definitely something to be avoided. germany has so far to resist that temptation, but i don't think it can completely exclude, you know, that it's, it's, there's so much happening there. so many crisis at so many france, you know, the cost of living crisis, the war, you know, the, everything that, that i think we have to be always vigilant in terms of protecting our liberal democracy here. so i don't think you could say no, no germany safe. i dont carol germany does seem to be moving toward a certain shift, but the question is, is what are its broader implications to german ministers recently made a trip to africa to try to court skilled labor because of the labor shortages in

this country. but with that really help to reduce illegal immigration or these 2 very different challenges. what, what is really interesting is that in the german coalition agreement of this government from end of 2021 and with the appointment of a special envoy to implement migration partnerships, germany commits this government. all 3 parties commit to say, we want to make offers to countries. if they take back their citizens who have to leave from live focused on those who have committed crimes. quickly, we will offer legal ways into the labor market. and that's in fact the key we've had many, my migration agreements that worked, but they've only work if they have been interest to both sides. and the problem is, if we don't find good migration agreements that were on the basis of human rights and human and, and they refugee convention, we get australian style agreements which rocked nobody's coming death. but with

horrendous cost and human rights, the court and very briefly good agreements that are in line with human rights and european values. how optimistic are you, what this may work? i think we have to break a lot of taboos. you know, we have also to think the issue of immigration and asylum politics, you know, in a context of grunting people's perspectives. that's really a very key issue because people are coming to look for a better opportunity to say yeah, absolutely. thank you so much to all 3 of you for being with us. thanks to our audience with

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