oh, well, come to tech, told me about hackers and realism to your societies. computers, that ocean where you and governments that go crazy for your data. we explain how these technologies work, how they can go in for, and that's how they can also go terribly. what you know migration to europe is once again searching e with already reported a $133000.00 irregular border crossings last year. the highest number since 2016. most of those fling seek to come by see 2 recent shipwrecks in the mediterranean. attest to the peril, they face the deaths and provoked harsh criticism of europe's broken policy. yet

some leaders want to crack down harder. the u. k, for example, will pay france more than half a 1000000000 euros to stop illegal crossings of the english channel. yet at the same time, countries facing urban, urgent labor shortages like germany, want to create more legal pathways for skilled migrants. so we're asking destination. europe can migration and controlled with hello and welcome to to the point. it is a pleasure to greet our guests. gerald ke, now is founding chairman of the european stability initiative e. s i make on then. messina is head of the migration and diversity department at germany's high english, both foundation and vent alina fund. great. oh, it's european business and finance correspondent for the economist magazine. icon

in more and more migrants are choosing that very perilous route to europe across the central mediterranean. why? what striving them? what we know this, this border is a deadly border. one of the deadliest borders in the world. unfortunately. and still it is the pressure which pushes people to go through this hardship and the people have the information. it's not that the people don't know the hardships they have to go through. so through the militia controlled libya, all these violence against human rights and the military and see the pushback information is there. however, the pressure people are feeling beat political, be the war, beat economical, beat, the climate. so that is the pressure which push people into this dangerous situation. let me ask you about

a claim that has recently been made by italy's defense minister, who says that russia, wagner mercenary group, which is active not only in ukraine, but also in some african countries, is actually weaponized migration to try to undermine and d, stabilize the you think that's right, we have to see the whole package, russia, not only the regular group, but the pressure is using anti europe sentiments, anti colonial sentiments, and anti western sentiments. and wagner group is just one element of this, anti european and there were sentiments. russia is using in many african countries . miley, in northern africa, in the south africa. and if we see who cited with russia during the u, the u. n. alicia, including area, all these countries are citing because they have some sentiment of anti western

politics. and russia is using this potential including immigration for flight. so we have to see within a broader concept of anti western cent and also using these to weapon eyes and to destabilize probably the west rush of course is also weaponized hunger, which as you said, is one of the drivers for those flows. girl, you and the think tank that you founded, the s i r well known for the innovation, innovative solutions that you put forward in the aftermath of the big influx of refugees in europe into europe in 2015, 2016 is the current situation building toward the same kind of crisis we saw then i think in many respects it's a very different crisis. it's the biggest refugee movement in europe since the forty's, but that's largely 80 percent because of legally arriving ukrainian refugees. if we

focus on those who arrived irregularly across the mediterranean, the numbers last year, all the way from spain to italy, molto cypress greece that reached europe was around the 160000. that's a high number. we had a lot of deaths, again, 2000. but that is no comparison to do 15. when we had a 1000000 people just come to greece. what is also different is that a lot of things that have been tried, have clearly failed. closing the balkan route, austria my applications last year of asylum then 6 years ago, italy, we have a fall, right? be interior minister close to the former far right. interior minister. so rainy, who talks against angels, but the people who arrive now don't come with n g o rescue boats. they come directly. we have a prime minister, wants to close the root, but actually wyatt since his prime minister, more people reached italy than ever before. so the rhetoric, this kind of rhetoric doesn't work. and finally, we have in germany, i think

a very interesting debate that the only way to have solutions if we, if a boat comes and if we want to reduce people, getting into boats is a combination of offering legal ways for refugees and people on to work combined with agreements to take people back with safe countries to reduce the incentive to come. and i want to come to, to those kinds of proposals in just a moment, but then to lynn let lina, let me ask you about something that carol just mentioned. namely, the large inflow of ukrainian refugees into europe. observers might wonder about these contradictory faces of european asylum and migration policy, because on the one hand, there were open arms for nearly 5000000 ukrainians who poured in in the course of last. and on the other hand, politicians are vying to close the gates when it comes to migrants from outside europe. does it simply boil down to racism or what's going on here?

i think that's too simplistic. i mean, it is very close. i mean, we at the board of poland and then the next country is ukraine. so, so this war is happening very close to us and very close to our hearts. i mean, people have relations in poland, them. they may have relations in ukraine. you know, it's it, and these are people like us. so it's so, so that, that, that, i think in terms of the sentiment expanded, plus, you know, the ukraine's are fighting in a way for germany's freedom for germany's faith safety. i think that's another element. so people have been very generous all over europe. i mean, 5000000 this very high number. and i think that's admirable. i mean, you know, you've, you've seen people really opened their houses, give people their sofa, you know, it's, it's, it's up an easy but, but it's been as sort of an amazing a manifestation of, of hospitality and generosity. i think that's, that can only be seen in a positive light but, but that there is a difference. so there is a difference there sort of course,

the idea that ukrainians will eventually go back. that still the hope, you know, and that's, and most refugees who come here want to go back. not only ukraine and such true for many other countries, but as luck, the longer they stay, the less, you know, the less likely they are to actually really return. mccannen had a you the see, it's certainly a europe contradictory policies do open it to charges of racism and those charges have been made differently. there is some racism in that approach. and once they do have freely to welcome the way, how europe reacted, what's your refugees? that was exemplary. and this exemplary approach and process should have been applied to other if you just as well. there was a great hope that we could have learned from this generosity from this very liberal approach towards refugees accessing the labor market, accessing the housing market, et cetera. and i think the welcoming gesture and culture we

have seen towards ukrainian. we have seen it in the 20152016 process as well. so there was a big gesture. but how is politics like using this potentially the welcoming potential towards or, or refugees, or people seeking for protection. so i see there is a mismatch. tor, when, when it comes to different groups, so to ukrainians. politics was also very open. but when we come to people population, i see there is a lot of potential in a positive gesture towards refugees and people's seeking for the future. let's take a closer look at the situation of those refugees who are coming by the, or the central mediterranean, the forced pushback of boats that were attempting the shorter meditate training and crossing to greece. and cyprus has, in fact,

driven ever more migrants to attempt this very dangerous mediterranean crossing we just heard from economy. it is considered one of the most dangerous roots of migration in the world. that makes shipwrecks like the most recent ones, an accident waiting to happen. an illegal crossing of migrants to europe ended last month with a wrecked boat off the southern italian coast. this is only one tragedy among many last year. according to the you and hcr, some 2000 people died fleeing to europe. they mostly arrive on overcrowded boats from asia or africa, and their numbers are increasing. this year about 20000 migrants have already been registered in italy alone, almost 2 thirds more than in the previous 2 years. but many countries in europe can't or won't take in any more refugees. in addition,

italy recently passed along that severely restricts the activity of rescue ships in the mediterranean sea. lonely covered our call. the only thing that has been said repeatedly up is that they should not be fleeing to with mrs. first and foremost, an ethical message. don't leave your homes, but was the abilities to which to tim's jojo, actual life. for of leo you will, you will take the decision to, to go to the see. i'm sorry, this is the real can europe stem the growing influx of refugees gal to put that question straight to you? yes. but only with public support. and the paradox is that the public and we're seen it also, the united kingdom reacts very negatively to small numbers that crossed by boats from france while being very generous to take in people through resettlement. also,

the united kingdom people have said we volunteered to have your cravings in our house. we've seen that in australia, migrant country, created by mass migration, very, very united, the round stopping small boats with very small numbers. so that, that the paradox is that people are afraid of small numbers because of irregular rivals because they suggest a sense of loss of control. but there is empathy on which one can build if one organizes it. so there are small boats are clearly very symbolic, especially for right wing politicians like the one we just heard in that report. you've referred to the political aftermath of the 2015 refugee crisis as a success story. but there is one factor that is quite different. now isn't it, namely, the rise of right wing sentiment in a number of european countries. how much does that change the prospects for poor pragmatic solutions?

i mean, have always been far write proposals into 15 presented by victor orbit and into 18 presented by the italian them. interior minister, the trouble to day is not that the far right is empowering more countries. it is that the centrist parties have run out of ideas and are now doing or condoning policies at the borders, which were in germany only presented by the i v. the far right german party in 2016, but which are now implemented at that use external border and germany's even germany is not openly criticizing it. so the real threat we, we have here is it goes far beyond the wreckage issues. it goes to the rule of law . europe is laws, conventions, human rights commitments that we are breaking systematically at our borders. and this is supported by governments of all political backgrounds and that is the crisis. because that undermines the very basis on which europe is built. let's pick up on that point and link it up to ethical and moral obligations. mclennan,

you have long said that europe has an absolute moral obligation to rescue those who are in peril on the sea. yet italy's government or has come under sharp criticism for restricting humanitarian organizations ability to do so. and in that report, we heard in italian politicians saying, no, the ethical obligation is on the migrants themselves to stay at home. this is very cynical to be very honest. course some countries of origin have the obligation to do everything to give people a better perspective their home countries. so i see really is a great responsibility and obligation on the countries of origin, not on migrants, migrants are just reacting to what is happening in those countries own human rights violence, war, climate change, which we are also responsible for the climate change. so there is in

a lot of responsibility on, on the international community, but not really enjoy and individuals. the other thing is, what is obligation when it comes to supporting refugees and also people who are looking for protection that every country has an obligation including the european union. so people flee at the 1st place to the neighboring countries. that way they stay for a certain period of time, looking for a prospective to go back. that is the 1st option, b in the syrians, in jordan, or in lebanon, or in the 3rd key, or it is free on going to sudan and to if you appear, et cetera. once the perspectives diminish, people go to the next step and then take all the risks, you know, like the risks of for her, the danger of the military and see and so on. that's where europe comes into,

into the game. so either we stop, you know, the or establishing the disturb leasing situation is in those home countries. so we do not react, but we act from the beginning. that is also part of the responsibility, not only taking refugees, but also to really tackle the issues people are forcing to leave their homes. so there is a broader range of responsibilities. then alina, that's long, been a mantra, including of german development policies. we, you know, we have to reach out and try to fix those long term push factors as, as they're often called. but that's a long term. that's a long term matter. and what we're seeing here is short term pressure, short term desperation. i mean, as a long term project, i think it's still good, of course, and it's, it's, it's the right way of thinking about it. but we are dealing with a short term crisis and we need solutions now. and what governments are doing at the moment, including the recent agreement between britain and france,

and i think it will talk about that later, is just exactly the wrong way to go about it. very interesting. that's exactly what i want to talk about right now. the ferment as great britain is among those that are vying to be seen as tough on migration, with some help from its friends across the english channel. this handshake seals harder times for migrants. france and britain have struck a deal to stop migrants from crossing the channel illegally. the u. k. prime minister richey soon act has promised his french counterpart, a manual my call more than half a 1000000000 euros. we're announcing a new detention center in northern france and you command center, bringing our enforcement teams together in one place for the 1st time and an extra $500.00 new offices. patrolling french speeches, 45000 migrants crossed the english channel to reach great britain last year,

an increase of nearly 60 percent over the previous year. they arrive in inflatable boats despite the british government harsh mornings. but those who come here illegally cannot stay under the new asylum law, the migrants face detention, as well as deportation to rwanda or other countries. so far that has not been implemented due to legal hurdles. critics fear that the right to apply for asylum is being curtailed. while the you case tough asylum policy become a model for the e. you what do you think, gerald? how would you assess this deal than to lena has told us it is not the solution. what do you so? no, it is a complete bluff. ah, and what is striking actually is that last year more people left france with boats to the united kingdom, the left africa to go to spain, or left turkey, to go to greece. i mean, this is one of the biggest, irregular movements and one of the reasons is that there is not been

a single return of any one who reaches the united kingdom from france. since the united kingdom left her the you and left her the, the dublin system which never worked well. so basically, and being the overall european union system, france, or were some distributing refugee. exactly. so what we have is that anybody who gets into a boat and reaches the united kingdom and they are all discovered, they don't come in secretly, but that's not a problem. anybody reaches the united kingdom, stays there. and that means that the idea that more french police are there just stops, boats will be the solution is, is a farce. because people can try 567 times, and france can't lock them up legally. what we need to do, and i don't understand why 2 democracies are not able. so finding the solution is that france or the european union of france could, we didn't unilaterally offer to the united kingdom. we take back everybody from this state, 1st of april, who crosses and reaches the okay quickly,

because france is safe. you don't need to leave france. in return, the united kingdom should agree to give a chance for legal excess, for 40000 people a year. less than crossed last year that are in the european union already there can apply, and that can then leave without risking their life without smugglers. so the united kingdom shall solidarity. it takes still less refugees than germany or france, but it takes refugees orderly. but france and the okay combined to take away the incentive to get into boat and pay smugglers, thousands of euros. and dead solution is the only one that can produce a result in the, in the, in the next few months. because what the u. k is planning will run though, will not work for a very long time. perhaps in a year they would start to have the 1st plane what they try to do the threat with the french to give them 50000000w5cw euros for 3 years to then keep people back. that's very much like what your of us tried to do with morocco and it didn't work very well. it certainly looks like out sourcing the problem or may come in and tell

us whether you think a solution that way, like what we just for heard from gerald, would in fact be a better approach. and then i'd also like to talk a little bit about the deportation and return issue because in fact the european commission just reported that last year, only 20 person one percent of those who were not granted asylum in the e. u were actually returned to their countries of origin would more be deportation, which is what the commissioner is calling for with that actually begin to solve this problem in some way. well, in any way you all moves towards outsourcing never walked. you know, we, we have all these examples of been a scone corporate thing. we've got our fee so many examples, which didn't work at all. so all tossing problems wouldn't work at all because people would always try again and again to rich their final destination. so beads,

italy outsourcing the problems to libya or yuki to france or denmark, and yuki and esau into wonder, whatever, whatever you do. if people are not granted perspectives to stay around the home country with a better opportunity to go back to their really origin country with better perspectives, nothing would walk. there were always sick for opportunities. most of those people who had been deported, for example, from israel to wonder that emigrated to the u. s. and to do to europe again. so even if you have a better dealing conditions between u. k and denmark and whoever it is was the wonder even if it is a really good coordinated people would not stay there because there is no better perspectives for them and those situations and countries. so i think we have to look into the situation from the perspective of their refugees and immigrants. another just really to also play other instruments like resettlement,

where they have a more acceptance between among the population because they see these are just people who are in need of protection. so we need new approach with old instruments . the instruments are not new at all, but we need just new approach. gwendoline, i'd like to very briefly pick up on something that gerald said as we talk about as solutions. he said, the real problem is not the rise of the far right. the problem is that even liberal democracies are beginning to to doubt, to lose faith in the system as a whole. do you think that a country like germany, which in fact has been a bulwark of liberalism? in many ways do you see it going the path, for example of sweden, where we are seeing a real crackdown now. i don't think you can exclude it. you know, i, i hope the center will hold. and the big mistake, for instance,

a country like austria, it is they try to then copy those are the centrist parties, or the in particular, the center, right pad is tried to copy the policies of the far right, thinking they will, you know, wind over some voters that would normally goes as far, right? that's the wrong. that's definitely something to be avoided. germany has so far to resist that temptation, but i don't think it can completely exclude, you know, that it's, it's, there's so much happening there. so many crisis at so many france, you know, the cost of living crisis did war. you know that, that made everything that, that i think we have to be always vigilant in terms of protecting our liberal democracy here. so i don't think you could say no, no germany safe. i dont carol germany does seem to be moving toward a certain shift, but the question is, is what are its broader implications to german ministers recently made a trip to africa to try to court skilled labor because of the labor shortages in

this country. but with that really help to reduce illegal immigration or these 2 very different challenges. what, what is really interesting is says in the german coalition agreement of this government from end of 2021 and with the appointment of a special envoy to implement migration partnerships, germany commits this government. all 3 parties commit to say, we want to make office 2 countries. if they take back their citizens who have to leave from live, focus on those who have committed crimes. quickly, we will offer legal ways into the labor market. and that's in fact the key we've had many migration agreements that worked, but they've only work if that bit interest to both sides. and the problem is, if we don't find good migration agreements that were on the basis of human rights and human and, and they record convention, we get australian style agreement which rocked nobody's coming death. but we've

been horrendous cost and human rights. the cut and very briefly, good agreements that are in line with human rights and european values. how optimistic are you with this? this may work. i think we have to break a lot of taboos, you know, we, we have also to think the issue of immigration and the asylum politics. you know, in a context of grunting people's perspectives. that's really a very key issue because people are coming to look for better opportunities. yeah, absolutely. thank you so much to all 3 of you for being with us. thanks to our audience with

ah, too many chips your guide to life in the digital world. explore the latest online trends. navigate your way through the digital jungle. get a global perspective. we'll be your guide and show you what's possible.

you decide what really matters to you. shift. coming off the lawn, d. w. of the me a mystery or concealed in the ground. most just painting notorious and controversial and the out. well the key means re writing been the scholarship revealed and nevertheless a mystery to this day. what lies behind the cut, and 15 minutes i. d. w. m. r. flying rivers formed by hey waterfalls, perspiring trees, or slee evaporation during forest fires, like mine don't get the answer in

a invisible river that flows through the sky starts march 23rd on d, w. ah ah ah ah, i was just rescuing daughter from a farm this one body globe. i found it like this and i couldn't just leave it there . should meet. 2 ah, this is such

a great burden with it was so dirty that cleaning your turn the entire bathroom into a mess. this is the water birds 1st swelled one of the most beautiful moments i've ever experienced. that a truth with a donkey series about our complex relationship with animals. well, i think i will live long enough to witness the end of factory farming. the great eat debate this week on d. w or ah, this is dr. news, and these are our top story of the international criminal court, have issued on a death warrant for russian president vladimir, lieutenant propensity, the court that the warrant was issued over alleged war crimes. and you can put in a suspect that to have been involved and unlock.