has is to hold the continent will make russia great again. what's lacking are prospects and a chance to live their lives? 30 minutes on d. w. d w's crime fighters are back with africa. most successful radio drama series continues through the whole episodes are available online. course you can share and discuss on w africans, facebook page, and other social media platforms. aren't fighters, tune in, know as the fighting rages in russia's war of aggression against ukraine. the international criminal court has issued a warrant for pollutants arrest, accusing him of the war, crime of unlawfully transferring at least hundreds of children from occupied areas of you praying to russia. my guest this week on conflict zone has called the deportation of children, a genocide, and demands justice,

ukrainian m p and chair of the parliamentary committee on integration of ukraine to the e. u. ivana clim push and sada joins me from keith. she also served as deputy prime minister under president poor shanker. this warrant is, i'm sure not the last warrant that i to see will issue against president putin, for his war crimes and crimes against humanity. can ukraine get its children back? can justice be served? and as it fights for its survival, how prepared is it for a spring offensive? yvonne, a clean purse inside the welcome to conflicts out. thank you for having me. the international criminal court has accused russian president vladimir putin of the war crime of unlawfully deporting at least hundreds of children from ukraine. do you think he will be brought to justice? well, definitely i see this as a 1st step um with hope that this war will be finished with justice. and this

warrant is, i'm sure not the last warrant that i see will issue against president putin, for his war crimes and, and crimes against humanity that are being conducted under his command on the ukrainian land. moscow meantime, has signaled that more transfers of children are on the way. many of these children are especially vulnerable, and we're talking about infants, sick children, orphans. they may be lost forever. if there is no trace of them, what can you actually do? while that's a very, very painful question. we have right now about 14000 recorded cases of the forceful ripper, the deputation of ukrainian children. but we understand that unfortunately, there are many more of them being taken from their parents or those who have become orphans, that we have no access to for that term specific data. this particular moment. and

only 300 have been brought home up till now. so we need all the efforts of all the international organizations, non governmental actors, everybody who could help bring ukrainian children back home because this is not just the war crime. this is also a one of the traces of genocide. and this is exactly the act of genocide, of the ukrainian nation, this the partition and, and stealing of the ukrainian children from ukrainian families. so you've called it a genocide, right? there are to be clear, prosecutors to date have not brought genocide charges, but the you and commission for inquiry on, on ukraine just last week said that it was indeed a war crime. and they also said that war crimes additionally include attacks on civilians, energy related infrastructure, willful killings, unlawful confinement, torture, rape, other sexual violence. presidents, lensky is office,

has said that the arrest warrant for putin is just the beginning. what do you want to see? what more? well, definitely we want to ensure that mr. fulton and all his clique and all his cameras are brought to justice and also all those who have been carrying out those some war crimes on the territory of ukraine. but we also would like to see the creation of the international tribunal that would lead to a bringing mr. put in for justice under they are crime over the aggression that can not be unfortunately tried. and under the i c, c. and yes, you are talking about war crimes, but the problem is that at this particular point, we are all operating, both the international community, ukrainian authorities. we are all operating with the confirmed legal data. the problem is that the occupied territories only occupied territories,

fresh and federation. continue this brutal crimes and unfortunately the whole humanity does not yet have access to understanding what type of um, crimes have been happening there as we saw in liberated areas like in boucher or in the zooming kind of give region or in his son. so unfortunately, i believe we are still ah, to see the, the, the brutality of this war. and i hope that the brutality of this war will be then finished with the, with the justice and those who are guilty of that brutality being brought under the investigation. and basically put behind the bars, the likelihood of a trial while putting remains in power though, appears slim. what real world consequences can, can you, realistically hope for right now? well, at this point, i think more of isolation for mr. put in definitely should be the case will so hold

that all the countries parties to the rome statute would also take that seriously. the eyes to see arrest warrant as we already heard from the german government, from the german minister of justice. and so that he will be limited also in his international travel. ah, we also believe that this arrest warrant will make think twice, all those war continuously carrying out and supporting the decisions that put in is taking in this war. so they might think, you know, rethink their approach and their actions in order to preserve themselves and their families in the future. so i think it will have also, and it also has, i think, a very serious ray of hope for all those ukrainian families that have lost the last, once their homes, their health in this, in this the barbaric war that russia is now conducting against and carrying out

against ukraine and the free world. so i hope that they are, that this hope is also and grace additional possibility to find to us some kind of foreclosure for those families as well. many of the children who have been deported to russia came from the mar you poll area, which was taken by russia. about 10 months ago. the kremlin has reported that putin made a surprise visit to mario pool and crimea in the wake of the icy c warrant. how provocative do you see that move? i think it says men, a pitiful attempt to a to tell something and that they are a quote and unquote have everything under control. and that is mostly, i think, the message for their domestic audience, ah, to say that they are taking care of the of the occupied territories, which has nothing to do with reality. they 1st turned down the city to ashes. and

now are building potemkin villages to sol. all for the to the lab to the society in the russian federation. but i think it looks it looks rather dental can about beautiful. as i said, it's the 1st time though that that putin has visited the dumbass region since announcing lastest september that he was annexing it. what do you make of the timing? oh, as i said, you know, he's trying to, to show in the, ah, when, when we see be arrest warrant from the icy on one side when he is more and more isolated internationally. when the, the economy, the russian federation is becoming weaker when the pressure on this society is also becoming stronger, i in the russian federation, he is trying to sell this as if there are any victories for the russian federation that they are making up in his mind. and we,

we have seen such theatrical scenes before in different versions, so from put in. so that is just another attempt from his propaganda to. busy so him as a strong leader, let's talk about your international partners in the us. the pentagon is blocking the biden administration from sharing evidence with the i. c. c, a gathered by american intelligence agencies, about russian atrocities in ukraine. do you find that acceptable, given how high the stakes are for these children, these vulnerable children? i'm sure that they'll. busy be illegals, our solution found to have access to as much information as they are, is available in the world. you have any indication of that happening from the americans. i am not part of this negotiation, so i cannot comment on that. but do you find that acceptable, that that's what they've been doing, that this is the decision that the pentagon has made, that this is what it's advising the biden administration?

i think that they will find the, the possibility to provide as much as a information that it is as it is needed to ensure that how criminals are brought to justice. let's talk about the situation on the battlefield. president zalinski has said that ukraine's future depends on the outcome of battles and key points in the east of the country, including and bach moot. and now we've just had word that authority is in of diva are urging residents to evacuate amid fears that russian forces are attempting to encircle it. the fear there is that the situation might become the same as or similar to that in bach moot. how critical is this moment right now? what was c b, a continuous effort of the russian federation to exhaust ukrainian armed forces to exhaust ukraine as a country and as a society, as an exhaust. also the willingness of the west to support ukraine. and that's why i think the, the critical situation right now is in ensuring that how efficient and very

urgent and fast delivery of the weaponry that has been pledged already for ukraine is taking place. so i think that this is critical from that perspective so that ukrainians on the top of their bravery of the, on the top of their courage would have actual instruments enough at hand to be able to a protect our land and b to liberate our land. zalinski has vowed to destroy russia's military power there. you mentioned your partners, you can't do that without support from your western partners. how can that be achieved? well, yes, we cannot achieve this without uh without the support of our western partners. and that can be achieved only with deep understanding of every single partner, both on the political elite level and on the societal level of the threats and the risks of the russian behavior that it carries out for them as well. it's not

exclusively about ukraine, it's about changing the international, or it's about attempting to reinstall or to, to, to install actually totally different culture in the international law. and trying to suggest that by force the borders of the countries can be changed and there is impunity to the, to the crimes that are carried out under the pretext to that is made up. so therefore, i think understanding is the key to of both longstanding support but also to the urgent and very prompt support that we need right now is the battle for bach mood, a must win should be at, at any causing the must. i think the must win is the battle for a democracy, freedom and international law, and that is the battle for your grade. and if that is requiring, you know, specific a tactical military or even withdrawals on our side. i think that that is should be

the case. i think it's not about, you know, holding part of the territory of at any cost is, is it's about planning how to ensure that all the territory is regained. poland and slovakia have said that they will send mig $29.00 fighter jets to ukraine in the coming days. you criticized partners for being too slow last year. has that change? are you happy with the levels of support right now? ah, as i said, we are grateful for everything that has been already delivered to you grain both forms and financial, political, and military aid that has been provided to the country. and unfortunately, some of the decisions as we have seen, where the whole long discussion on tanks have postponed as deliveries and have postponed the possibility of training of our, of our defenders in different countries as the decisions were not taken. so i'd

really love and you know, western political, a lead be as courageous as ukrainian armed forces and ukrainian society has been up till now in order to ensure that they are not taking a late decisions that, that might cost us additional loss of light. but there are practical realities and let's go through some of them. you ministers have approved a 2000000000 euro plan to supply ukraine with badly needed ammunition. but you know, your country is saying that it needs $350000.00 shells every month to stave off rushes offensive in the east and to prepare for a spring offensive. stocks are already running low among your partners. are you confident that your allies can supply the ammunition at the rate that you need it? i think the right answer would be that we hold that they will and then yes,

this decision that we value by the you minister. so that was taken a couple of days ago. we value it very, very highly, but it's again, one of those decisions that would have been a we would have been much better off if, if it was taken i couple of months before. so therefore, right now it's about the speed of the implementation of this decisions and also about the speed of a similar approaches of an additional production in different other countries that are also partners in this and supporters of ukraine in this war. i think that the we can also count on the us. we can also count on canada. we are seeing be also attempt already in, in japan to change their legislation to, to help us though we are counting on other partners beyond europe as well. and all that together, i hope will make it happen, but you're seeing the situation around the world, your st countries facing energy crisis. citizens facing soar in cost of living. and

i'm wondering if you personally are concerned that support could wayne we understand that that is the expectation of the russian federation. and here i'm coming back to what i said earlier. it is important to understand that this is not a only existential threat to ukraine. it is an existential threat to the way of living of many, many countries, and many, many societies, even what we see with the food, a security issue, how russia has been using best leverage and, and how many countries have understood that ukraine has been that this bread basket for, for lots of nations around the world and russia is playing with that leverage as well. so understanding and getting on board in the war where it's black and white. where is the war for of good against evil? i'm countries getting on board. this is important whether they will be getting

tired. i'm sure that russian propaganda and russian money and us present corruption money will be trying to work to that. and. but i hope that the tick 20 changes in understanding what ukrainian stand for and what are the consequences of russia not be defeated for the whole world. and for the cold, global security are getting route across the, the whole different continents, against that backdrop of chinese president, she, asian ping has been visiting russian president vladimir putin on an on a state visit in moscow. that trip has been framed as a mission of peace with china calling for talks. would you support that? well, was seen the plan that the or so called plan that the china has a foot forward. ah, we didn't all to see the actual trick conditions for actual,

for actual piece of being reached through that particular plan. because it doesn't say anything about the withdrawal of russian troops with this from the sovereign territory of the sovereign, an independent country with recognized borders on to the international law. busy so i'm a bit skeptical with regard to, to that suggestion, to put it very diplomatically and very mildly, you mentioned your aim from the ukrainian side, which is the withdrawal of, of russian troops. and i'd just like to bring in something that the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff has, has said about that, mark milly. he said that he believes that this war will and at the negotiating table with neither side likely to achieve their military aims. again, neither side likely. do you think that at some point ukraine will have to accept that as a reality sooner or later? i think it also depends so very much on our whether our partners have made up their mind that russia actually has to be defeated in this war. because we've seen the,

the development of the narrative from russia cannot win in this war. ah, to, or your brain has to win in this war to russia has to be defeated, but not necessarily destroyed. so to say. and i think we are all still there with full understanding of what the goals of the, of the whole world are. and the, the fear that is still there are, some, are in some political levels from the russian federation being a nuclear power, i think, is also limiting the possibilities for the armed forces of ukraine to, to liberate our own territories. so i do know that every single war is finished with negotiations, but i think that it is in the interest of the whole continent and world that it is finished with negotiations after ukraine has liberated all its territory behind

closed door. and though right now in the parliament, is there a conversation happening about how the government might approach piece talks? now there is no such conversation at this point. so you have to understand that we have already once surrendered and negotiated a century go with the russian than russian empire or then russian federation. as a soviet republican, we have as a result of that occupation, we have seen the great feminine, the territory of your brain, the great hall of the martyr. we have seen the, the atrocities when gulag out was exterminating our best of the best to we have seen the on the tragedies of many, many families in our world. so a, we understand that now we can not allow that to happen once again, many countries around the world, especially in the global south. they continue to trade with russia. they have not condemned. the invasion,

the world is split in many ways. not everyone has sympathy for you. do you feel that split and how dangerous do you think it might be? yes, we do feel the split where and i was naive and, and that is unfortunate though, also the results of our under representation, an hour and not enough work in those parts of the world and russia. serious financial and informational presence in there and with different leverages that russian russian federation could offer. but that is a continued effort from the soviet union times. and the yes, we are worried, but we are also trying to upscale our communication with those countries in the awe in the global south, and also our appreciative of the efforts that our hardness from the free world of trying to tool. so take in order to, to ensure that goods is backed by majority of the countries in the world. i like to

talk a little bit about our ukraine's you ambitions. as we mentioned, you are the chair of the parliamentary committee on integration of ukraine in the european union ahead of an e u summit. last month on the ukrainian prime minister. i'm said that ukraine had set an ambitious goal of joining the e o in 2 years. is that fair for ukraine to expect the e u to grant membership that quickly this is where we totally disagree with each other here internally. and i've been pretty vocal explaining to the ukranian public that unfortunately this is more to realistic believe and we should not target this and we should not mislead the ukrainian society with her being able to join the u within 2 years. and i think that this is, this has to be done with respect to the ukranian society. however, i think that ambitious, but realistic goal is to target the opening of the,

our negotiations for accession at the end of this year. and that is where we have to concentrate on our efforts right now, and we have to make her homework. there is a lot to be done. but i believe that this transformation on the, on the wait on the path towards the e, you will ensure that, that the country is changed for good. yeah. and, and, and includes further measures against corruption, tightening laws, against money laundering, and the excessive influence of ukraine's oligarchs, your administration. you, you couldn't realize these reforms fully years ago. do you expect, or how do you expect ukraine to now effectively do? so during a full scale invasion i let me disagree with you. i think that we have sown an incredible, incredible cutting off of the empirical court with the bitter soviet

legacy of firm, also corruption and, and different either flores and good. including with problems with the role of law and other problems here in your brain, since there are lucian of dignity of 2014. and that's why i believe that it is possible for us to fulfill this. also part of it during the full scale war, but i don't believe that we will be able to do all the necessary transformation before the war or the war. and, and that's why i also do not believe that it is possible to join the you are within 2 years. i think we have to be making mobilized efforts here internally on building institutions, on making sure that democracy to democratic procedures are preserved on making sure that the rules of law and the system of judiciary that allows every single citizen knowing that their rights of protection is being built, protected, or is being built and just briefly, before we go,

there is no sign that russia is backing off in its invasion. are you prepared that this war could last for many years? i hope not. again, the courage and the ability to mobilize of the ukrainian society has to be backed by urgency of the delivery of the instrument that we need in order to protect our people. and in order to liberate our land, i think we are all interested in making sure that we are not exhausted to death, and that we are winning altogether with a free world and will be able to, to show all the country as a new, new haven for investment. busy for, for rebuilding, for hope after we will win in this war. how do you think the war ends with our victory? we need that in order to survive. thank you so much. ivana clim pushes inside, so thank you for joining us on conflict. so thank you, sir. ah

ah ah, with

time seems to stand still in young the victor's enemies and victims were your 2 present with as is the hope that today will make russia great. again,

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