taking all the powers that be, they risk everything, gender, darknet, activists, journalists, and politicians living in exile. they will in torture. they live for their mission. what drives them? could be nice to know what is happening there. were series guardians of truth watch now on youtube. d. w documentary as vs war of aggression against ukraine bridges on the battlefield. it is also using just information campaigns to promote false narrative in a conflict zone, special immunity security conference i spoke with the czech republic, foreign minister nato's assistant secretary general. google's president of global affairs and a south african dis, information specialists. how can the truth win the battle against its information?

ah, hello everyone, and welcome to dis information, navigating the battle of narratives. we're here at the munich security conference, and we have a very distinguished panel. and mister foreign minister, i'd like to begin with you because dis, information is a big part of russia's war in ukraine as they attempt to dominate the narrative around the world. and i'm just going to give one example kremlin lead propaganda blaming a global food crisis on u sanctions has spread in africa and in the middle east. so when we're looking at the czech republic, when you're looking at the situation, how big do you see the security threat of this information? it's a huge, it's a huge concern. and so, but we should to acknowledge that this is some look something new. this kind of information warfare, as it is understood why russians they play this book at least one century half. so we have little bit forgotten o 25 with that and what is the proper cool?

it's not different in the digital age. absolutely. it's the same as in the h of newspaper for radio. radio for people are gossiping people, thinking roles thinks, asking questions, gray thing and crafting calls groceries. so what is the proper answer in the digital age, when everything is very quick and fast, that we need to have a capacity to react? states needs to have capacity to react and turn to be truthful to the fighter. and we understand that your country is actually, i'm debating right now criminalizing the intentional dissemination of this information. so i'm gonna ask you a bit more about that a little bit further in the conversation. but 1st, i like to turn to the assistant secretary general of nato to get to get your view here. and i'm going to add another piece of this information into the max. now, this is from pro kremlin sources which say that nato is not only threatening russia, but may even wish to invade it. so when you see that, where do those rats that this information,

i stand on the spectrum of security risks right now for the alliance. well, thanks a lot. nato also was accused by russians of creating the earthquake in turkey just to put things out there. so it's, i mean, everything that this happened happening in the world is in a way fault of either the us or natal in the world of russia and her for us. again, as the minister said that, nothing you, that has been there forever for nato and, and that's part of russia's political warfare. but in the same time, of course, are on our side on nato's side. we clearly identify information. we clearly identify that the means how to defend ourselves as part of the instrument of power . so when we look at the whole spectrum of instruments of power, what we have is diplomacy. we have information, we have military, instrument of power, economic, legal, and so on. so forth and only the information is across boss,

civil and military spectrum. what it means is set information contributes to the implementation of nato's mission. nato, as a defensive alliance is based on the un charter article, 51. if there is armed attack, the collective defense principle comes in and that is what nato is about. so we do defend also in information sphere by making sure that we know what is happening. so invest a lot in inflammation, environment, understanding. but we also do a lot of calms, making sure that our core tasks, the turns the fence of our populations, the crisis management and corporate, the security that it's all reflected in what we do. so we are being proactive. so there is a whole spectrum of activities that we make sure that our populations our, our stated threat thrush and her is groups and, and partners. now, what nato,

isabel ponds, lam, turning to you. now, i would like to ask you, because you've really seen firsthand, actually in your country, south africa, what happens with these campaigns to one in particular, to stoke racial hatred and unrest in the country through your activism. you are actually a contributor to kicking out a major p r firm that, that was behind that. and i'm wondering that experience that you had. how has that informed now, what you're seeing going on in the continent, what we're seeing russia and china make major inroads when it comes to disseminating dis information and, and gaining a foothold. and those narratives often feeding into each other as well. yeah, answer from my kind of work against disinformation to south africa got to see 1st hand as he, as you've correct correctly said. and but nowadays the danger of disinformation is electoral interference. am as the story in the guardian revealed and the was

electoral of interference in the canyon election. so what my kind of great to point is that there needs to be far greater focus on the african continent. and so as a basis to spread kind of at and t, ukraine at this information on social media, a lot of african accounts are being used. so that's the kind of playground and arena that they using to spread this information to. i'd like to see the conversation moving beyond just the u. s. or the u, and going into africa and the deadliest war right now isn't if you appear and that one's not getting enough attention, i'd really like to see a greater focus from the global community on the homes that are being caused on the african counted by dis, information by russia, as through disinformation, by china, through the purchase of media outlets. so i think that's where the greatest threat

is and a lot of attention needs to be focused. okay, thank you so much. um, you know, on this panel we have a lot of public representation, but also of course, private representation. i can't, i'm turning to you, of course i'm youtube's reach. there's more than 2000000000 active users on the platform we understand. last year, the international sac checking network, i'm representing more than 80 organizations. they had the following warning, and i'd just like to read out the quote. one of the major conduits of online dis, information and miss information world wide is youtube. they said that it is not addressing the problem. fair criticism. i think we're making dramatic strides in improving the quality of content online. a google search at google news, our antidote to fake news, in most cases, not that we always get a ride, but we are working every day to make sure that the quality of the content, the authority, evidence of the content on all of our platforms. i is reliable and trustworthy. the

challenge on the product like youtube, where users are uploading of whole variety of content, hundreds of hours every minute, has been to identify problematic content and remove it quickly. and the good news is that the progress has been dramatic. so we have gone from a few years ago, having one view and a 100 on the u to platform filing our policies to one view on a 1000, using advanced artificial intelligence, enhanced enforcement techniques, etc. so we are continuing to progress that we recognize, particularly in a war situation. the old line is that truces the 1st casualty of war, there will be more and more efforts to try and spread this information on all platforms. so one of the reasons why very quickly, after the invasion, we removed r t and other platforms. we actually saw the moving from europe in united states into africa. we did this on a global basis. however, we have now removed thousands of channels from youtube and tens of thousands of

videos that are conveying dis information. so we're making progress, but jobs not done. let me ask you a little bit more about how you're making that progress though, because you know, there are reports that last month. for example, this is reporting from the new york times that you tube quietly reduced its small team of policy experts in charge of handling misinformation. and here's what the critics say. i can't, they say that they're concerned that you're putting the bottom line above the public. good in the battle to combat this information. so what do you tell them right now when we're an environment with economic headwinds? sure, if it's clearly not the case, we have tens of thousands of people working across google and youtube. reviewing this and disinformation are the time story you refer to the, the evidence was a team of 5 people, of whom 3 had been moved out out of 20 or 30000 people working on this problem. and that more important area is beyond the number of people. it's the amount, the number of engineers and

a i tools we can put against from that's what allows us to quickly identify and remove problematic content. so i would say our investment, siri has grown dramatically and continues to grow hensler. i like you to jump in here and perhaps i respond to what we've been hearing from from can't because i'm, i something that i mentioned a little bit earlier. you're a founder of south africa's 1st electoral disinformation monitoring project. um, what more would you like to see from, from the big tech platforms and are you satisfied with what you're hearing? yeah, i mean this a lot of work bit tick platforms could do. i am and i think to be fair, google's one of the better ones and, but we've seen a lot of disinformation spreading from facebook from twitter. and i think the great problem in africa, and like in the u, the u. s. where there's been legislation in a lot of african country as people don't necessarily understand why this is important. and i think there's lots of concerns around basic bread and butter

issues. and people don't necessary appreciates what a grave danger disinformation is beyond kind of electoral this information and manipulating the public discourse, but actually fanning wallace. i'm so i think there is so much more platforms could do one. a basic thing is having content, moderation, and beyond. just english, but in languages that are spoken in africa. so that's a huge problem with identified. and, and we've noticed that there just seems to be very little care of what's happening in the online space from social media platforms. okay. assistant secretary and i like you to also way in and then i will hear from the foreign minister. oh no. on the private sector. i think it's part of the problem as was rightly identified, but it's also part of the answer. currently, we will not be able to get to

a society that are resilient with both the governments or the, the individuals, the groups, the private individual education system have an understanding of how to treat information as part of, of everyday life. like we treat cyber like retreat, other hybrid threats was all the private sector. so actually the trainings investment in, in literally every day security features for people at a certain age and the training is, is crucial again, every country, every society will do it differently. but responsibility lies was, every one, it lies was begin to national organizations like nato, to make shoes at oak or tasks. the defense of citizens against external, like, aggression, is, is implemented. but also it, it's her this responsibilities through the private sector because obviously,

and we have seen, as you said, was a number of platforms. i don't invest in small languages, identifying the hostile or disinformation patterns as they don't take c content seriously in smaller languages. because markets are smaller, they dont treat advertisements as a way. so there is space for improvement. i think in, in a lot of places there, sir, could i miss her up for just a moment. i just want to hear briefly from the foreign minister 1st and what i wanted to ask you was, you know, the e u has recently revamped its anti dis, information are code m as part of the digital services act. and so some of the criticism of that is that it, it largely relies on, on voluntary measures deep. what do you need to see from the big tech platforms and you have any hope actually, lee, that, that, that approach might work. you know, i agree that i have seen a lot of disinformation on facebook and on youtube,

but in my case, the, the biggest number of design formation i've heard was from my mother in law. so are we to regulated somehow? i don't think so. and so therefore, it goes to a hostile man, it goes to, ah, how the whole society works. and now the whole fabric of society works. and of course, the digital platforms are important messengers and other new actors in that. and in traditional media, we know how to our all the, our regulate the content of it. ah, on the other side, we are learning that for the digital platforms. and i think the act you mentioned is the way, how to find the consensus to society. how to approach to algorithm or so we don't, oh fives. we don't, we don't apply censorship as such, but certain a certain algorithms doesn't need to promote it to,

to everywhere. and we are also learning how the emotions in society works in a new way. and because the digital platforms are very effective, spreading emotions, so that would be my input into that. you ask about the debate in jackie, i bowed her about this new law. it's a very premature to debate. i don't think that the need to criminalize or something which is already in a criminal court of a far more democracy. so in the market, the countries you can lie, but you cannot lie in a way that is cause harmful effect. right. i think this is that most important distinction, which also applies for spreading, are spreading cur, does information misinformation, et cetera, et cetera. so the platforms are important part of that, and i think her google is, is do good, fair share. and i think we are over the time, i think it was maybe like 5 years back when we really had a serious debate with big thing. if this companies will take responsibility for

effects, will deposit folks are doing? i think they are now accepting that that's my view on that and i will. okay, thank you can't the can i'm going to let you jump in. but i also want to add, perhaps a little bit of food for thought here and shift our conversation to the race a, dominate a i right now, a huge conversation around these chat thoughts. they're out there, especially ah, chat g p t. we have people calling it some of them, the most powerful tool for spreading miss information on the internet that it has the potential to do. so we understand google has an arrival bard as well. ah, legislators are sounding the alarm. where are the safeguards? so let, let me start by responding very quickly to a prior palace and come back to this question. i very much share the notion of platforms having a share responsibly with governments in addressing this, this problem. so for example, in chakiya as well as us lakia, poland, and soon in germany we have want something called pre bunking,

which is trying to work together to make people more resilient against the risk of fake news. disinformation, things like overly emotional pitches, or one sided presentations. youtube has a program called hit pause, which is reaching out to a 1000000000 users to say before you buy off on something, hit pause, do your own research, double check, get the facts. we've actually seen numbers that people are in fact influenced by this and are more resilient, more skeptical of some of the claims we're seeing out there. so i think we can, there are ways of a, from replaying offense and clue. so back to your point, we're proud the we've expanded the, the google translate tool up to now i think something like 400 languages. this is allowing us, in addition to the 80 or so language as we are already covering in europe, to expand into africa, the middle east at the asia pacific region, et cetera. so it's an important area of research and more than research actually bring it to product. now sarah, back to your question. the, as there's obviously been a lot of work around the m a. i generally,

and large language models. in particular, this is a technology that google pioneered in 2017 and he called transformers the to pay off from that. innovation has been dramatic. we tend to focus on the chat bots, but it's also important to realize that this is bring a huge advances in science and technology. precision agriculture, nuclear fusion, personalized medicine. it's people who have studied computer science, their entire career, so they have never seen anything like the inflection point we're at now. now with in those incredible promises comes the risk of abuse and misuse. a i plays on both side to this equation. we are able to identify misinformation much more quickly because we use a i, tools, and workspace, and how we're using them and using them in languages around the world without a i, we couldn't do nearly the job we do today. but you're also right that the synthesis,

the and the dissemination of these tools that allow people so many more people that everybody has their own megaphone create a new set of social challenges. some legal as it addressed some technological on our side product design and some in terms of social norms push pamela way. and i think the challenge posed by a i and particularly chad bites em. i don't see it as at all as something very easy to deal with and particularly for regulators because they all these changes coming up all the time and they just can't keep up. so in terms of dealing with it, with that and neither whole of society approach as a foreign minister pointed out, at my vein law example, i've become kind of the fact very a fire for my est, my then has circle of friends, you know, they send everything i have to say no vaccines will not do that. no, you're not being microchips. so i think there's the, i think with a greater response beyond the platforms beyond the regulators and just for

communities as i like the idea of investing and plead banking because that's actually the most powerful tool. because when something has gone viral, it's really, really difficult to de bank. so there needs to be more investment and digital literacy. and so i think everyone has a role to play academia. some of the fact de regulates as platforms. i like to get the view now from nato, from the assistant secretary general. i mean, when you're looking at actor can, can i just and quickly quickly comments on the app until it was saying, i couldn't sign what you were saying because really, that is own approach. because literary, you have to really understands information and william and not only in your own country, but also what over external, internal, hostile inflammation activities. because again, was the intent of release. and, and because for example, in russia's case, they use a whole selection of power of instruments of power including kinetic, for nato. the answer is also,

the whole spectrum of instruments of power will have to be ready. militarily, we have to be ready on diplomatic front. we have to be ready on, on the legal from that so and so forth. and that applies to the allies that applies to the governments to the societies, to the every unit of the society. and, and in that respect, what we call resilience societies. the whole government, a whole society approach, easy only approach and again, south african challenges are different and you spoke of those challenges and i fully agree. but again, that's a whole society approach. there is nothing else said today will work because the whole way, how we process, how we work with information, how we are influenced, how we influence others, has changed. it's not going to go back anymore. and, and private sector is an essential, essential element in that security, a security provider for our societies, mr. farm. and sir, do you think we have an appropriate sense of urgency right now about what might be coming down the been for us? i think we do. i'm the actual so dumb home or the level of you

know, do working group orders information. do you still stratcom her during the beginning of the chick presidency through you? oh, some some conclusions on that for although also ah done. so yes, we do have a, we understand it. ah, paradoxically, lou russian imperial war against you crying is helping us to c o wolf. the real danger is we're are nearing at the end of the live stream portion of our conversation. i just like to pose a challenge right now to our panel and perhaps leave on an optimistic note on the future and pumps loudly to begin with you on the focus of the munich security conference this year is on revision. so that means working toward a much more attractive version of the rules based order. when it comes to dis

information. what do you think needs to be done to make truth more profitable and or more attractive than this information? what opportunities do you see? and if you could answer in 2 sentences, that would be amazing. yeah. so my, my, my kind of focus as part of that kind of the greater global community air against this information is on the african continent. and the initiatives that i am going to kind of be working with others that will society partners. this is going to african elections and setting up this information projects and most projects on certainly focused on digital monitoring or fact checking. but kind of installing a hollow society kind of an approach to protecting elections against as information . so if what my message would be is the platforms need to pay a little bit more attention to what's happening in africa. the global community needs to pay more attention to what's happening in africa and provide support to

those on the ground fight at doing legwork. an important message can ah, 2 sentences. oh, we have to have effect both the supply and the demand side of the equation. if we want to make truce more profitable, we need to change social expectations and desire for wanting to get high quality information regardless of the tool ai algorithms or what you're reading your daily press. we talk about being bold and responsible. that has to be a shared obligation. again, as we talked about the, the secretary general's, we're speaking about how do we figure out how to work together to have a new era of media literacy among our populations and a new era of social responsibility among platforms and government. madam assistant, her secretary, jenna, m one things. the good news is that russia is failing, not only in the kinetic or rushes, also failing in information war. we see that we pull the audiences in nato countries. really neither russia nor china is succeeding. so that's why they have,

they are trying all types of other desperate measures, splitting societies, creating cows fragmentation, everything has to be not believed, trust, not trusted, everything has to be christian and so on, so forth. so creating a situation where there is no truce, so we need truth heroes. we need heroes that are popular. speaking truce in all societies from south africa to iceland and elsewhere. foreign minister are those heroes elected officials. i think 2 o 2 issues can be false, not easily but false, for full immunization. many oh, content creator platforms makes money from his information. if this is target, that it will, it would help to decrease the level spreading and accountability we need to be working on that so that the heart full flying is not for free. that includes our

panel dis, information, navigating the battle of narratives. thank you so much. to everyone here on the stage. thank you. ah ah, ah, with

ah, through completely fascinating persecution and discrimination. no john, cynthia, roma, community the nazis murdered hundreds of 1000. 0, the racism continued long in politics, society and in the media. and it persisted to this day, host rules hassock houston,

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almost everything this week on p w. ah ah, this is d w. news line from berlin, superpower. tensions in the spotlight. us. how speaker defies warnings from china and welcomes high ones president to california, leading highlights, growing american support for the self governing the island, which being claimed as its own. also coming up the program ukraine's liter thanks, poland for support.