free weekend. oh d w. hey guys, it's evelyn sharma. welcome to my podcast to love the matter that i and life celebrities influences and experts to talk about all playing. loved beg from dating and india today. nothing less of all these things and more in the new season, off the pot. com. make sure to tune and wherever you get your podcasts and join the conversation because you know it love matters. mm hm. hello and welcome to another exciting edition of the 77 percent. the show where we talk with and to each other about issues affecting us zambia passed a mental health law in $2910.00, but it's implementation is still patchy. sh in this week, st debate,

the 77 percent heads to lusaka to find out why, despite the law, people who have mental health problems can't get the help they need. take a look ah, and diety, depression, bipolar disorder, mental health issues like these are seen as taboo topics in many african societies with limited access to medical health go services, young africans to struggling with their mental health. i left to their own devices, the d. w. 77 percent is in zambia, precisely lusaka to look at this silent epidemic. sagal salad epidemic, of course, talk to the people at the heart of its advocacy. and i'm going to start off with here. mr. benjamin who has 10 years experience of course are talking about mental health 1st before just give us an overview of the mental health situation here in zambia. we have most of us services, highly centralized in osaka, on this services. ah, ah,

we are with government institutions and of private practice coming up. i do have a number of arm is to shawn's that are also providing ah, like telephone counseling or to her services. just to make sure that access to mental health services is made available, accessible and affordable, even to those why not within a 2nd? let me just come to an am at am i here? benjamin has been in the advocacy for 10 years. you started just 2 years ago. tell us what has been your focus. is it that for the past decade, a lot of work has not been done invest that made you want to start your own advocacy as well. so my focus has been on raising mental health awareness and ending the stigma that surrounds mental health. because in the past, people have been glued to or you know, have stuck to these misconceptions about mental health such as the belief that mental illness is a curse or, you know, it's demon position. so my focus has been to debunk those myths and make people

realize that mental illness is something that can attack anyone. and we have duncan here who yourself has experienced this live. talk to us about the experience with mental health. how was that phase of your life? like i struggled with depression and non factory for about 12 years. in that moment, i became suicide by the age of 10. and at the age of 16, i studied attempting suicide. i did my migrant dic somewhere at the age of 6, which i developed souls on my lips. you know, sometimes when i, when, if i go to school at home, my friends would laugh at me that because paulson blood didn't come out of my deep . so i received rejection from there and coming from a broken home as well. so i felt i had low self esteem and out my unfair to kid me as a way of out so much scared of the future. because the opposite point in my life,

the doctor told me that i might have been called blind because of the migrant dick, which had started effect my eyes. so i sat down and i thought, what's the in the future in doubt? we just the way things where because we struggled so much in the family when mom and dad separated. we went through so much by nice shad the so the i was no any form of hope for me. what about the family, your images surrounding? you do understand what you are going through. i know they did not understand. okay, let me just come to mom here. briefly. she is duncan small mom, if you could just tell us how you feel after realizing that your child was actually struggling with mental health. and you could not really up in point that that was actually what he was going through permanent, none vena in em. villette, abd of dub blaylock to lunch, but a lemon on emptied when you looked my meanings of fluency by the number was another

song, as he by jeff, good day, the bone in his acquittal, meta is indeed according to meet him master. wishing them in his will be dam. nasal been deed date was up, is already dated by manella. was it by a name? the been in to my phone is somebody in b keesa? did you receive any sort of help during this phase? i never did in there. the sad part isa. i never knew that i was struggling. mentos . i'd. i'd no idea what mental health is. let me just come back to you quickly. benjamin. when we're looking at some of the causes on which societal causes i that i actually result into some of this mental health issues in zambia. what are some of those that you've encountered? so the most her common causes of mental health issues in xanda was bill took a barge, i increased substance abuse, alcohol and drug abuse in young people. but we also want to emphasize on day aspect of what we call the bio psychosocial. so some individuals i use ready ballast, harper dispos, where they are born in families where there is a significant future of family members being treated. oh,

and you did with mentor uranus. this stresses would beverage where to day then. yes . and eventually you normally run ips or that now someone would need psychological and you know, either from a college cause a boy intervention. let me just come quickly to a polite or here who of course talks about a lot of social issues. and you are a boy to amazing she and voice of the voice less. how do you e? see the issue of mental health in zambia? i think the, the, the conversation around mental health is probably one of the exclusive compositions . you can't find such compositions in poor communities. why do you think it is like that here? ah, i'll tell you. ah, the poor people are of no excuse for whatever happens in their mind. if you doubt school they'll say, you're just dull. if you, if you, if you traumatized, nobody will know that the ones i used your muscle whose kids lose your parents when they're young. and most of these kids i experienced so much without nobody bring

attention to them. so these composition is, is exclusive to a certain class of people that of an opportunity to even understand with re max is his composition, their own mental youth. let me come to you duncan quickly add to just take us through that, that state of mind to really out what was that when you were going through, what was it that you felt that you needed? what were you communicating through your actions, your emotions that people were feeling very difficult to understand and grap? how did that make you feel? um, so i should or the science of so site to my family, the people that i was leaving with. but nobody could be able to recognize my mental state. so i had to withdraw from people i. i lived a lonely life and i was very shy. i had low self esteem was, well, i also could talk much about death and write more so much about die, not be the only solution the only way out. so i showed all those signs. sometimes i'll talk to may be spiritual people,

but they told me miss prayer about it. so i felt less understood and i felt the only way out is just to end my life. i mean, you talked about am seeking for spiritual help as well. duncan, let me just come to our doctor francisco here. tell us how is the situation of medical access when it comes to treatment services? mental health is a health presentation like any other health presentation. thus, if an individual feels like they've got any mental health issue or can discern or problem, they should go to the nearest mental health center just like we go to. they help near as health center for a headache. for hypertension, debit is h i v. this is not the casey i you we are in though only by the way the only our mental health hospital is shane mike, this is the only one we have in, in zambia. is that correct? allow me to correct that study name i have so it's the t sherry psychiatric hospital. it's the final referral hospital when it comes to mental health. so we

can consider like the scent of excellence when it comes to psychiatric practice is mental health. really embedded in your primary health care system. this is what the question is. i think this is something that we're constantly investing in. and i believe this is not something that is unique to samba. it's actually a global issue. i think for a long time mental health has been sidelined in the practice of medicine, but i, you know, excuse in the, you know, the duration here because, well, i had to move one soccer, a major area that was thought it is with primary healthcare is awareness and since deposition, as you have heard from them, a tama from dan can even from badge a man, even polite domains, and we need to reach out to the community. so firstly on our strategy has been improving awareness as his physician or mental health. i'll go back to that, i will come back to what exactly you are doing, moving forward, but for now which establish that there is a problem is i spoke about that briefly at least. introduce yourself. yeah, i'm here bro. much in the army. so catching nice to some of the things that we want

to talk or ease. yeah. and we want to improve on. it's not just about talking and coming on t v and making sure. but what we want to send to the would be and what we want to achieve as africa, as xander, is that we want men to her to be it prioritize. do we prioritize so right now it is not a priority, so much us, right? yeah, and this oh, see through my born. yes, because i'm another good to for a mental health patient. they would rather sponsor efficient who's suffering from casa and not me way because he sort of priorities to but let me just come back to dr. francisco, he, i'll come back to you that he said it is not a priority for this country mental health i will beg to differ one as i am speaking right now. here. if you compare it maybe to other conditions like h i v t b which are well funded and we have many partners finding that we it to look like the ministry is only prioritizing those areas with that is not the case. we have

many international partners on board that are funding those activities. so it'll make an a field of medicine like mental health, which doesn't have many partners look like it's been neglected. ok. and further, on top of that, i know you said we're going to talk about some of the things that we are doing. oh, come back to that later because i am still trying to understand. if it's that it's really been prioritized, and i'm going to come to your duncan here. would you say it has really been prioritized? maybe you've mentioned that having enough, pardon? as that could probably is also sounds like there's not much interest vested in that . if you would want to just come in there. um for me, my comment on that is that i feel this more that can be done. because i for example, i struggled with depression and anxiety for 12 years. i was a young person in school. i never buy then i don't know, but then i never saw anything about mental health on tv. if dr. you're seeing that, it's been given that attention and but then why is it like that?

because i feel if i add people that came to my school to talk about mental health out of definitely not what i'm struggling with and out of reached out and seek for hill. okay. as an active is the also have a platform, right? do you have up a block? is that going on a podcast? how do you center? i'm the communication around mental health because of course the media is very important in that crusade. ok, so on my radio podcast i, i usually include a professionals and also people with lived experience. please allow me to am, contribute to the question that you had asked doctor wyatt on without a mental it is a parity. i don't agree. honestly speaking, we only see the government doing things during these special days like suicide prevention day, and mental health gay. and then even when we go to these hospitals, that the claim help people with them inter health. there's a lot of stigma you'll find that i go in there with a mental health problem and the doctor is actually going to 20 me and laugh at me.

and there's also no protection. the police also, you know, make fun of people with mental health issues. and where do you report that to nobody takes etc, etc. so definitely not a prayer to latter. would you agree on that? i do agree with mama and also i don't think that the claim that we need to raise awareness. ease is a lie because is no need for you to raise awareness when you don't have the facilities. are the hospitals and trained a people to, to work on the, on, on, on the problem. what i think is because if you raise awareness, you're raising the demand. so larger is the demand of people to go to the hospitals who is going to treat them. if you don't have foreseen to that, what tends to these people when, where are they going to be? let me come back to your doctor because i think the unanimous agreement or statement here is the fact that the people also who need to attend to people struggling with mental health are not really dad. some have their papers or the degree, but they're not employed in the system. why is that?

so indeed, we have a lot of work to do when it comes to mental health that i would not deny. we have a lot of work to do, and it's an upcoming field in medicine and in health globally. globally, i should emphasize that and i think a zombie in the region. i think we're doing pretty well. though allow me to do in peter was the indicator for that. we have several projects. mental health is a month. those areas of fields in health that we're factoring in. the raised a very good concern about the health facilities. allow me to educate my panelists as well as the public. let me take advantage of this platform when, when we go for health practice or medical practice, you know that for every proper medical health practice, you have to rotate through psychiatry to mental health is part of our education system. and in zambia, we've prioritized it to ensure that everyone who graduates in the health sector should have retreated through psychiatry, thus beloved or martin. i'm a tama,

when any individual comes to health facility they should get, they missile mental health. all of us medical health personnel have been trained is a catchy and mental health on a to order to challenge what the doctor says. so being able to are being trained to diagnose an unit does not mean treating that unit. okay? yes, so the able to see that they able to know that, but they have the power, the necessary tools and necessary equipment to treat. because if they say they're trained to diagnose it, then what's the point? i mean, you know, many dominique people we have in the rural areas that have been treated for mental health problems. and i think that is what i wanted to raise again. here it is. the people are there they can diagnose, but if the facility is not giving the right treatment, then what's the point? this comes back to us. the honor is on, on every mit health 1st personnel to take up their mentor and prioritize mental health. and that is what we keep encouraging for mental health. what to ski is

a good history taking. remember, it's psychological, it's information, it's social. this is what we aim to train. are you really dealing with that with, with the psycho social aspect of it as well? because then why are we having suicide? so site is every of the many reasons why one will reached a level of suicide and the many factors to presentational site. first one, the individual factors. i, the 1st is the individual able to open up to anyone. how is it be portraying, remember, even the most of them must be put in the word with so many people are on them. have committed suicide. they've got access to all the best mental facilities, beth mental doctors, psychotherapy, psychiatrists on their team. okay. and that still commit suicide with a smile on the 5th, i'm going to come by because duncan did mention that in the beginning, he did not have a place to go to. and even where he went to hospitals or places, there could not really tell what his father was. this is what we're trying to normalize. duncan. are we saying that there hasn't been some shortfalls? no, but are we working on them?

yes, i'll come back to you. but let me just come to the madame a quickly before i come back and you are studying psychiatry and tell me how is the enrollment off of this field in your school and how many people do you have in your classes just in order of the stat numbers here. so the moment is not so difficult and in my class currently we are about 36 inasmuch as people me want to study psychiatry, i guess the interest is growing slowly, but then you know, even when we were getting into this field, i'll former students would tell us that we are just wasting our time, you better find something else to do because the government doesn't improve as many . so, you know, even our lecture, i sometimes advise us that we should create our own employment, create your own mental health facilities, because the government does not employ people that will be private and very much expensive us. well, exactly, that is going to be exact. let me just come to you quickly here. yes. tell me what, what, what you want to comment on that. so the problem that we're having is the information gap. most people don't know about mental health, right?

was this so minister your types towards mental health. so many beliefs and misconceptions that need to be broken down 1st. so we need everyone here. the advocates and stuff like that. what they really need to do is get to the grasp grassroots because of the moment it's regarded as something that spiritual someone may be going through. duncan mentioned right. he was going through him into health challenge. when he went to people to ask about what was going on, people didn't want to tell him, they didn't know what was going on for it. that just shows us the real problem that we need to address, which is thing for mission guy. there is an information awareness gap and again, so when it's talking about traditional, you know, resort interstate traditional means i mean this is a medical issue, but traditional healers make a major part of it's walk force i in fact to regulate in their operation. how do you oversee this? that's why anyone i brought up. they sure says they vision and awareness. it's important and on a stigma that we're seeing is because of a lack of knowledge,

but then we'll bag the highest responsibility. this state is the primary duty bearer. this is where you should have started. we have to understand some just culture context. there's that 2 aspects. there's the spiritual aspect of zombie as i'm a christian nation. secondly, we have the traditional aspect as well. so even when we talk about mental health, mental health has a lot to do with beliefs, psychological, social perception to life for meaning. even as we approach diverse individuals, we have to factor in that. that is the pathway you are actually looking for to undertake. we are considering everything and everyone, and we're getting everyone on board traditional people, we're getting them on board spiritual people by getting them on board academics, mammoth. and no matter what, getting them on board mental health personnel, we're getting them on what we're calling everyone together. it's everyone's problem . this little allusion comes in the horns. it starts from the home. interesting. let me just come to benjamin quickly. do you agree to that point? of course at managing the traditional healers away the da da da da biomed. if you

like at do you think that this could be a possible pathway to this issue? it shouldn't be possible pathway. it should be part of a pathway. before everything else, we belong to a community or a system kind of yesterday we saw with her family it right if there was traditional issues of values which they practiced under value, if they promote shooting. that is what recording hollister. turner approach to talk to care and treatment. yeah. oh, i'm dr. you wanted to clarify a point. yes. oh. so as much as there's the spiritual, a cultural tradition of context, remember, all still have to be firmly comes to the medical treatment. oh, let's give, let me give an example. something common like h i v, a lot of people use, i didn't deny about h i v and they'll seek alternative treatment, traditional treatment prayers. but after some time, we still cancelled them to come to a point to realize that please, you also need to adhere to our treatment and our medical guidance. and that's why i ask, where do you draw the line?

and then how are you trying to make people understand that at some point, this is a medical, you know, medical issue even though maybe the spiritual aspect might be there as the most of you have said. but where do you draw this land going forward? yes, so i think even in practice, we try to make an effort to do that. but at the same time being very respectful of the appliance opinion, view and perception, but still being very objective in our communication and also still highlighting the medical aspect. let me just come back to you duncan, before i come there, he wanted to say some. i would love to, to ask the company to also, especially include advocates and activists as want to also give them we pot. there we are, the chemist saw begin to reach out very well and if at momma can just also tell us, and because someone mentioned very important point, that in nice and holistic approach. and that means everybody, the system has to be functioning. so tell me i'm going forward. how has the struggle of duncan? your son had changed your perception? niga in garaged advice?

my parente a good t rana was and i'm gonna ran ran and got t own daddy move my ad. you own c as you, i ran my many that eat that t. well no man, not so nick, up we know and up, we know i want to coordinate a that we're going to move funds intangible. death in a number on a banana fi. got going. it a like a bond and i'm going on a chain of which to the chain. so buddy jennifer know, would the keys a mom mark all good to my quarter and they ran now my call often called dandies. i ran. would he see the vehicle would dwell up in a when a may daisy mccord on that suite, a minor before he was a physical to which a man at desolate and we just come to you in ama tamar because someone mentioned that the 2019 mental health law he had the act has been passed, right. which means it's now into law. so i mean, it also has to cater for a protection. non discrimination of people are struggling with mental health. but is this a progressive attempt on the side of the government looking at where you've come

from, the or the last that you had? ah, from my perspective, no. when you go to the police station and report something, the moment you say you are a mental person, you get ridiculed the police, don't take those things seriously. it's like these laws have been passed, but they're not being implemented. i am for lack of a better word. i'm disappointed for to hear that you're developing the mental health act to that level. we've been uploaded for that mental health act and that was a huge step for mental health because it protects, it promotes but what, what, what that advocating or she's saying is, is it really gaining flu shot in terms of the implementation aspect of it? because if that has that ended law is still meaningless, it is dear. we have a lot of political bye in our permanent secretary, in the, in the health for all the major programs that have been facilitating this mentality or st. government will sort something else along. it's a wrong attitude and meet us. government is the primary duty mer, hear you. we hear you, but we are helping that foster because in the policy we need to understand that we

can compare mental health to other areas in health right now, it will be a mis norma. we're still on the way forward just way forward. yes, you are raising your hand. yeah. how are you offering solutions? what we don't have a stigma index in the government does not have the system in place or have and the not very unreliable. and i don't, and i think you would honestly us just to that. so my question is that, how are we offering solutions? when you do knoxville, the population you're working with? you don't know. you don't know what good, what population is actually affected by stigma without, with adjustment or personnel. you do not size little population cannot access or cannot, cannot afford our mental health services and is going forward. should be a way forward to break this down to make it easy. pretty much what i'm saying is that before can actually go go get ford will get the data 1st thing. so and here and then yes to doctor. yes. i think in closing, i would really like has to have an understanding of i understand as an advocate, it's not my job to do the, the government's job. i'm here to hold the government accountable for where there

are gaps and where things are not happening. and i feel like this is getting muddled in this conversation. so i think going forward. yeah, advocate gather meant yeah, it's not my job to do the government up as an addict. i think that's clear as to why a dr. fransisco will, we're having the conversation, of course, around the government is not doing it because you need to push and do a little bit more and you've had on reliable data. and some of the other issues that emanate at the government say, what are you doing towards the issue of mental health now going forward that the law of training that's coming up from into health personnel. we're doing a little supervisory and mentor re, a mentoring visits when it comes to mental health across the country. then in terms of since those attend awareness top on our priority as well, we're looking into that. then of course, one other important aspect that i'd like to highlight, we are calling for partners. what has just been established is that mental health, it's real mental health struggles are real and definitely exist in zambia, oswell. i know that it can be too much to do so much, especially when it's supposed to be the work of the government. but as people what

we can do as well is to be more empathetic to one another. sure, love, sure, kindness at spread smiles where you can because you never know what people are going through. this has been the 7 to 7 percent to live from zambia and to thank you so much for watching that scene from us this week. if you enjoy the shore, then you don't wanna miss out on some more great content from the 77 percent. pay us a visit on instagram and youtube until next day. good bye for now. blue . ah, ah, ah, ah. ah.

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