much more news on our website. that's d, w dot com. ah, journalist evan gosh, covets had sat in that very moscow courtroom, many times reporting on other people's trials, often those of political prisoners. to day it was him standing in the defendant's glass cage while his colleagues on the other side faced the disheartening task of covering the trial of one of their own. in his 1st partially open court appearance, the wall street journal correspondent appealed against his pre trial detention, but was denied bail his lawyer say he's in good spirits reading tolstoy and planning to write a book upon his release. but a lot of time could pass until then, if found guilty on espionage charges curse. cabbage could face 20 years in prison on the call for the kimberline. and this is the day. ah,

i can only say how troubling it was to see evan. an innocent journalist held in these circumstances. i can speak to heaven as a reporter. i want to very, very closely with him. and i know how seriously questioning his world the charges against evan are baseless. how much short he gave to her and partial reporting from russia. we continue to call for his immediate release from this address. and i think i have a direct written showed on incredibly dangerous to this because evan was simply doing his job. and also on the day is the west abiding by sanctions imposed on russia over its invasion of ukraine. there have been questions whether switzerland is doing what had promised. this was president came to berlin to say he is fully committed to cave b. it's also alicia, and we are all struggling with this situation which developed brutally

a little over a year ago. he's right up to switch. linda has fully accepted the sanctions. switzerland has been very active on the side of ukraine for the reconstruction of ukraine. you'd also a welcome to the show. it was evan girth coverage. his 1st public appearance since his detention 3 weeks ago at a court in moscow in front of many of us journalist piers who have worked alongside him for years. the wall street journal reporter was denied pre trial bail. he will have to spend the time until his next hearing and the notorious left for tow prison, a symbol of state sponsored repression. since the soviet era, the wall street journal reporter has been charged with spying. following his arrest late last month, rskovich and his employer denied any wrong doing and washington is calling for his immediate release. the 1st time, are you esther analyst has been detained on espionage charges by russia since the end of the cold war. and we can now speak to william courtney. he's

a senior fellow at the rand corporation in washington, d. c. he's also a former u as in basset to kazakhstan and george, i'm mr. courtney. thank you so much for joining us now. evan gorski, which is the latest only, and a series of foreigners facing what many observers are saying are trumped up or even fake charges. what is your take on what the russian authorities are doing here? it certainly is affect charge, but in the past, the oceans, so certain places sometimes when the russians warranty trade a spar. so for example, their dental oscars would like to search the previous one or what your journal o, susan russell was born to go over your job training material 1st bar. so you expect to see a prisoner exchange here then because there are other us americans currently held on faith charges that they alleged or fake made up charges against. for example,

paul whelan, do you expect for the authorities to move more quickly on gross given his case here, russian course take some char, the russians typically will not trade for more until after they have been convicted or russian court. so it takes a month for this to play out all the terms intrude will be it's not, no, there is a spart in brazil currently who wants of the united states in graduate school. it's possible you could be involved in charge of just on clerical sport. and now these kinds of swaps they are problematic in a way aren't they? russia has sold previous prisoner exchange. this is the last one, for example, the one with brittany griner and, and, and mr. boot there as an american capitulation. so how should the u. s. government

go about these kinds of negotiations or even back to the soviet period. there was a question. yes. and the trade for example, the u. s. received a, which is think or just that and gave up a john one spot. and some people argue the insurance rates. and the case of britain greiner, she was so certainly innocent about in some respects, that was on church road since there to vote. the person who was involved in the trade was a legendary and notorious or national arms dealer. but the politics, so the situations mirror on the case. and so in britain, a grinders case, for example, the been quite successful for the united states under tor, but was, had already started almost 2 thirds of the sentence. anyway. this is meant, of course, not only tend to be a journalist, but also to pressure washington to soften. it stands on moscow in a way, is there a chance it could achieve that goal?

bo, dot strasburg forever. or slash swamps usually don't reach that far into genuine political issues. so for example, russians war on your grade is a huge issue and aspire swap will not have any impact on that war. what do you think? because you, of course, have observed russia for many years. what do you think is going on behind the scenes in the kremlin? is there anybody telling food this is not a good idea? let's not go down that road or is everybody just applauding these kinds of decision? well, as remember, kremlin is now run by security serv, of kids. the veterans, both who did himself and his top aides. and so they sometimes are eager to get caught spies, russian spies who are called abroad to get them back. partly because they're concerned that the spiders, my review information to afford intelligence service or betray russia. so in

this case it's hard to know, but it's quite possible that they are concerned to get back a russian spar. and just on monday, opposition activists and fellow journalists, bottom your car moore's. i was sentenced to 25 years in prison. do you think depression of anti kremlin voices in russia could get any worse at this point? so in the 3 decades of modern independence now, russia has never been more repressive internally than it is now and never been more aggressive extra early that is now waging the war. my dinner has been caught in s. see, as genuine hero, a russian who really as a patriot sticking up for freedom, it has counter, he has caught on s as in elect, sorry about it. this is terrible prices that they have to pay us having health issues in prison. for example. right now seems to want to become more and more

repetitive and purpose and scared their own people may repel. how should the international community respond to that? where for, for sort of condemnation and that is what is happening now in europe. this a bruce, media of, given a lot of attention to both accounts, most of our cases, certainly that's the case of the united states members of congress speak out. oh, so it's important that the strict will not be forgot that governments are n g o z and b abroad, a speaker for them? does vladimir putin care about members of congress speaking out though, because he clearly has an agenda here. yes, no, he, when i don't care a whole lot, but members of congress, hassle sanctions, a lot of the sections are really beginning to do deeper now until the russian economy, and also members of congress approved funds for army ukraine. so tutoring probably

does care to some extent and he of course, cares a lot about the defend within the country being silent. is there anything the russian civil society it can do to work against this crackdown? oh, bring enough just proof. no 2nd power. have there been so many stresses on the kremlin was enough as the alternation the hardliners had been quite critical of russia military performance in your grade. and now in a very unusual circumstance and citizen of the guardian for goshen has created a private army with the kremlin support and for government to remain in power. having private armies outside full control, the government is a sign of weakness and so it is possible now that the problem is more worried about how long it's going to be able to sustain itself at a time of military action. your crane have been very embarrassing for russia and

the economic standards of living people architecture to go down because of sanctions abort, comical form. it's. yeah. what the kremlin is trying to do, most of all is to symbolize strength here, right. how do you expect that to play out in the coming weeks, months, years for that will depend on the success or lack of granite counter offenses, which are going to take place this year. the cranium show a lot of momentum on the battlefield. russia just attempt to the offense the last couple of months and it sputtered pretty much failed. so that's been pretty embarrassing. others cause more hardline, criticism of the trauma. it's difficult to predict how these things come out over the past year or so. the been a number of predictions about the war in your brain in the west, a lot of those predictions are not turned out so well. so we should follow events

there. but let's be prudent about making predictions that was fully courtney the rand corporation. thank you so much for your time greg. welcome. a, we adopted the e u sanctions. and of course we take this completely seriously and we are simply doing everything that can be done in order to enforce them seriously. and stuff. was it? that was switzerland's, president alarm bell said, speaking in berlin to day about his country's commitment to sanctioning the kremlin over the war in ukraine, but is switzerland really doing all we can to implement sanctions on russia and what are other western countries doing to prevent russia from trading with the west . well, according to a report in the financial times, some switch companies are using a loophole in switzerland sanctions legislation to circumvent restrictions and are continuing to trade in millions of dollars of russian gold and oil. the authors of

the report say, a provision and swiss law allows its companies overseas subsidiaries to trade russian commodities, as long as they are legally independent term. this was sanctions enforcement agency declined to define and about all of this, we can speak mount anastasio, fedex. she is an assistant professor of finance at aha school of business at the university of california berkeley. and she's also a founding member of the pressure group economist for ukraine. miss. vedic. good. see you again. i want to get on to switzerland in a 2nd, but evan gross coverage of the wall street journal was detained shortly after the paper ran a piece precisely saying that western sanctions were biting. how worried is russia about these sanctions? they are worried and to see that we just need to look at what they're doing rather than what they're saying. as an example on the russian government actually entry band every single and non ukrainian american member of our international working group on sanctions. right. alongside prominent people with jill biden,

i'm so that's a clear signal that they are proceeding our sinks is recommendations as extremely negative for the russian government. so for sure, there, there are worried about sanctions that zooming in on switzerland. they say they are doing everything they can to seriously implement sanctions against russia. are they ah, that that's a great question. and i mean in reality you sanctions are not perfect non perfect in switzerland. they're not perfect in other places as well, but in switzerland, in particular, there is this tension because historically they've had an entrenched believe that a lot of the success of their industry, especially their financial industry. i'm sort of relies on privacy on kind of hiding count ownership, and these kind of ask no questions. and that type of approaches. and that's just kind of not the case anymore in kind of in the modern and interconnected would

largely global economy. it's a lot more about corporation, a lot less about their hiding and that kind of privacy. and i think what's run is moving in the right direction on that front. but the question is, what, whether that's too slow. the g 7 and e, you ambassador signed a letter recently calling for switzerland to close loopholes that would allow companies there to circumvent sanctions on russia. now is that completely without hypocrisy or sanctions being implemented to the fullest extent in the g 7 nations and, and an e u member states? i mean the short answer is no technically not fully without hypocrisy. and of course, there is scope for better implementation for better tracking everywhere. but i think the important thing is that the hypocrisy angle and away is irrelevant. it doesn't change what is right and wrong,

and it shouldn't be preventing an individual members from calling each other out to do better. so i think there's quite a bit of research heterogeneity. and the way that sanctions have been implemented across different countries on different countries are leading or lagging in different domains, right? so for example, individual on russian oligarchs and or sanctioned by the you is not exactly the same set as who are sanctioned by the us or the state sponsor of terrorism designation on has been implemented in the you where it's less fighting. not yet in the u. s where it's more biting out of so one of the main recommendations on from our sanctions and the group of economists for 2023 is to bring those things. morning sing. and of course, that should be done by adopting the maximum of union set of sanctions. so for example, if an individual is sanctioned in either u. s. or to you on the should be sanctioned by phone. and to do so, i think leaders in each area who are, i'm kind of at the forefront should be able to apply pressure and to call out

laggards without getting bogged down in these kind of what about isms hypocrisy issues. all right, fair enough. now you talked about switzerland's business model, there being based on, on this principle of privacy and no questions asked, but, but switzerland also has been proudly leaning on it's on. it's as sad as, as a neutral country for a very long time. right. and i want to ask if a country can really call itself neutral if it's passivity is benefiting the aggressor? yeah, of course there limits to neutrality, right? as sir, i guess, as an example, refusing to prosecute a murderer would not be cold neutrality. that would be cold, a failure to do justice, as of the same can be said for can continue to do business with russia on refusing to apply appropriate levers on and punishments it to maximally, stop russia's ongoing aggression in ukraine for sure that the term you can you try lady and have has those limits when you start running into clearer violations.

let's look at some of the specifics of the sanctions that are in place against russia because the price caps on russian oil introduced by some countries have been really cut the price of russian oil as much as was hoped. does that have to do with the mechanism itself or with russia limiting production? i'm yet so there are few on things in place. i would say. then there's the mechanism. then there is kind of the specifics of the mechanism and then there's implementation. so i think the mechanism is kind of the, the success rate. that's what we worked out as we took several months on the for the alley countries to really kind of put in place. and so having that framework is already of really large step forward because now we can tighten the specifics in that framework on. so that's the next step. uh, we definitely can the economists in the sanctions group do recommend lowering the price cap. i'm now that we happen at can is my place. we can now start applying that pressure. i'm the other thing, of course is the implementation and, and we are seeing i'm some evidence of issues there in terms of what price rushes

actually selling oil to versus what is being reported. so i think that for sure, the 2nd lever that should be a big focus with 2023 and is going to be to prevent this kind of side transfers that are violating the price can how can that be done? so i think kind of quite similar to what we're talking about with switzerland and when applying more pressure on our allies to kind of do their job in terms of frameworks for tracking. and then putting a lot of the kind of tracking reporting, transparency requirements on private entities. and so can i know your customer type of regulations were individual firms should be responsible for tracking what is happening with, with their products, including products that they're insuring in the case of oil or transporting, as well as kind of affirmatively attesting that they're not in violation. where of

any breach of such an effort made of at a station would then carry them appropriate penalties in, in terms of fine, straight for the corporate entity. yeah. now that you mention pressure, the g 7 as worn repeatedly. that any country helping rushes war effort. you know, looking over a china mostly would face severe costs, but they never really explain what the consequences would be. how effective can these kinds of threats b if they're formulated in such a vague way. yeah, and i think the reason for that is similar to the reason that we took several months to design our price cap. a mechanism, right? there was a large diplomatic aspect to it where we need to work out what is feasible on what, what is going to work, what we have to buy in from, you know, a larger set of to 3rd parties. and so that's why they're big for now, but, and that, that doesn't mean that they're being not being worked out and then,

and kind of more specific basis. and certainly i'm kind of in, in terms of issues specific guidance that the sanctions group does recommend being up front. and that once we have anything specific in mind about this will happen to kind of deter, rather than have to actually go through and you know, punish exposed, which is not in anybody's interest. as i said it from the high school of business at u. c. berkeley, always great speaking to you. thank you so much. likewise, thank you. for now, fierce debate has been sparked and the world of photography after an artist entered a photo competition with an image generated by artificial intelligence. and one, the image shows to women which do not exist and was entered into the creed of category of the sony world photography awards by german artist boris and jackson. alexson has refused the prize and said he submitted the image to find out if

competitions would be prepared for a i images to enter. looks like they were not. and the artist behind that picture joins me now, boris elder than welcome to the day. now it's being reported that you revealed that the picture you submitted was a i generated, but you were pretty up front about it ever since you found out you were selected, weren't you? yes. because it was not about winning and you've seen laws making a test trying to find out if i'm to competition is prepared. and my mission was to create awareness for that, that we need to keep this in mind and for the community that it is going to happen . it's going to happen on a much, much larger scale in the future. and how did the organizer is our b of and react when he had told them the picture was in fact, not a photograph. wireless the i offered them. they could like give it to someone else,

but if they don't, would be good to have an open conversation for the public. yeah, because it is something that is pressuring the for the community. their response was taught, they were saying you can keep it. and dad was, if there was no response to my off of having the discussion or conversation and how did you react? because you obviously wanted to take this further and, and as you say, create a conversation. and i was just waiting what was going to happen. and how day would announce my work in the press release or 2 weeks later, and they sent it out and there was no word of are good to us. a i generated it could have been like stress stedman saying it is the 1st day i generated image in a competition. and boris didn't tell us before or chicky monkey and m yes but, but how do we go from here? yeah, he is right. this can happen, this will happen on

a larger scale. we need to talk about it. we need to look at our correlations. we need to find a structure for the future. that was my intent. but it never happened. and press inquired very early after the press release was about that image looks different. is it a i generated and press executed, contacted me. we have some inquiries about your picture. can you tell me more about it? and then i realized that press executive did not know what it 2 weeks before. i explained it in detail in an email. so the conversation a communication amongst the team of the organizers did somehow feel. then i sent a statement describing again what i did, an audi image was produced, how active i am in a german scene in talking about this in the photography world, about the future relationship between to talk a fee and a i to night images. and it's important to do an open discussion and the response i

got late and even in versus my name. thank you. no now on while my offer, let's tie and as long as they send you honest out, we don't have much time. but i do want to, she wants to know what you think the discussion should be focusing on, but it's happening and i have to really thank the community for taking it further. the day started to talk about it 1st night and it became such a large debate that the media like you became aware of it. and this is what i was hoping for. so what we need for the future is to be need to have term for this kind of imagery. it's not an a i photo the best to test and i have at the moment it's a prompt or crappy. it's produced with prompts. it's very clear up front and it shows you can either generate images that look like do i know painting? and once we know it's 2 different entities, we can talk about as malaria t's because they look like photography. they have

learned the language of photography that now it's free, floating an entity in itself. so what are you doing now in the photo community? how do we define photography? is it large enough to invite a i generated emitters or palm to graphic him? or is it better to keep it separate? but for competitions, i don't think it's wrong that both compete in the same category. all of this is happening now on a large scale and a vague thankful for the community that made it happen. and there is a big discussion to be had, well, unfortunately do not have the time to dig it any further for as alex and thank you so much and thank you for starting a very, very timely conversation about the future of photography. ella, future of, i think thanks for having me. that is our time. but make sure to stay informed, staying aged, and stay in touch. you can follow our team on twitter at the windows and myself at nicole underscore foolish. now though, from the entire team on the day,

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