in exile, the way to which they live for their mission. what drives them? people need to know what is happening there are ceilings, guardians of truth watch now on youtube dw documentary they've been almost 5 months of virtual stalemate on the battlefields of ukraine. and yet europe in america are clear that key f one gets the fighter aircraft and long range weapon systems. so what's the ground plan is seen from brussels? is the one my guest is shout michelle, president of the european council. this is very clear that we do every thinking of the to guaranteed to return your 17 digit of your credit. it means the rich story of your credit to be clear. and what about the confusion over a policy on china? president macro says taiwan. isn't your business?

your foreign policy chief says it really is. whatever happened to unity in the european union. michelle, welcome to come. thank you. let's talk 1st about the war in ukraine. if we may, for the past few months, has been very little movement on the battlefields of ukraine. the west, you included, has given large amounts of aid and weapons, but clearly not enough to move the war in key of direction. isn't the danger now that you're beginning to normalize a stalemate is very clear that on your side you are determined to do everything to support your credit, which has retained and you are absolutely right. it's a very tricky after the start of the food stealing division launched by russia, we decided to provide military equipment is the 1st time in european union history . the 2 took such a decision. and since then together we have a our allies across the world. we provide needed to support to ukraine. we provide

financial means to ukraine. we help you cream on my 3 sites to move you to one of the example 2 weeks ago we to the decision to work together. you members to produce ammunition because we feel that is needed to strengthen our defense industrial base. you know that to speed up and you're absolutely right. that is important to do everything to, to accelerate the effort. this is really important that the ukrainians made the shows to resist the stream lea courageous and this tragedy for them. and this is what i would do t i responsibility is to do everything return, you know, the to assist to, to support them. and of course, they're not, they're not impressed with the relationship with the you at the moment. ukraine's foreign minister dmitri labor has complained bitterly that the

e u was failing to implement its own decision on the ammunition to purchase ammunition for the country. because member states were arguing over which suppliers they should actually and since, and sign a contract. and since that statement made by me for, for the fact we had your titian to clarify with the you can authorities, you know, that was wasted. we are, we are in turn to turn tact prison till instance, and was the ukraine authorities. and i can, we assure you that the know that we are, we label friends and we label parts and also know that this is a magic bullet. we do everything to speed up. we have taken significant political decisions is very clear that there's a 20 political choice on this you side to, to, to, to, to be act he, she know supposed to quit, but the realities that we still measured, bullet faces. we need to make sure that we will produce more ammunition the

weeks and months to come. mister columbus, deputy andrew melnick says that war fatigue among you members is now the biggest challenge for his country. is a feeling, he said that now the tank issue has been settled. people can put their feet up. a lot of them still don't understand that the war is far from over. is the right to worry about war fatigue in the, you know, it is that we clear that we need to convince our citizens across, you know, what state is the future of the european union, the future of our citizens, our security, our prosperity. but look, if we look at the situation of a few months ago, and absolutely convinced that a put in situation was the will for t, y, the impossibility for the european union to stick together to be united in we took 14 and a criminal by surprise because we are able to stick together, we are able to have the support of public opinion across the european and we were

able, we have been able to, to, to, to stick together with our northern america allies and other partners across the well you say that, but your foreign policy chief, you as a barrel said, recently, forging and maintaining you. unity against russians invasion has not always been easy. some states complained others disagree, but in the end we maintain the unity. so you've papered over the cracks, what, what could open those cracks up. again, this is a very clear that unity, it requires a lot of effort. but the fact all the facts we've been able for instance, to sanction russia, you remember that a lot has been set on some lists of fragmentation. on the new side, we took decisions altogether on 10 packages of sanctions. and we are implementing these packages of central. we are working altogether,

who mobilized international community on the international stage, who are working with africa within the past history. is that in america, in order to explain, to argue, to try to convince sometime that you have done the lot on sanctions, can i just, you know, make a point here. but you're still using vast quantities of russian oil supplied mainly by laundromat countries. these are countries that loaned the oil from moscow and sell it on to you. china, india, turkey, you a and singapore, you know about this habit, with buying wounded russian oil. what was, what was the situation a few minutes to do? only a few minutes ago. we were on the european so, brutally dependent on the russian forces. hughes and only a few months we succeeded to 2 decisions, you know, the to, to reduce dependencies and the doors to end the dependencies on the rest of aggression for seen fuses. why do they? because this is why didn't you close this loop?

this is what we are doing. you are working very hard to close all the different loopholes with please, would you prefer the european union? nothing to position to guarantee the supply of energy resources for our businesses, for our host, or would you prefer the collapse of the european union? i suppose it is not what you are advocating for, and it's why we need to be reasonable to be rational and to be determined exactly what we are doing. on the one hand, we do not lose our long term strategy. we want more renewable energy on the you said we want, we want more independence in terms of energy producing on your site, but also to make sure that we defend our eternity based. and if you defend the social sufficient of our citizens, you mentioned the risk of war fatigued and you are right is important to work in order to avoid being victim of such or which is free one to 2, to support for citizens. this is important to demonstrate that you are working,

you know, the also to overcome the energy challenges, for instance, you know, but if you want to do something about war fatigue, isn't it time for a clear explanation of the use strategic objectives for ukraine and russia? plenty of generalized promises we've heard from the you, you told ukraine in february the european union will support you in every way we can for as long as it can. i can i just ask the question for as long as what takes, what exactly does this promise mean this is that we clear and the way you are austin nutritionists. interesting because it show that i'm not exactly following your approach in our approach. if you wish to explain simply to, to decide when to but you made the promise, please please let your difference your choosing to answer your question, i will, i will answer your question, which is the ukrainians. they have the responsibility be just suffering 13 to the site when and the way in which the enemies, you know, the to,

to assist when this is time to, to, to, to, to open a new, a new chapter. and it's why we are supporting this piece formula developed in proposed diapers lindsay. lindsay. and it's why also support nice idea to have an international piece so meet in order to defend the ukrainian position in spite by what we believe in the move to la through all older was boost international, older, the territorial integrity and sovereignty of the different of nations. because the word is the you scared of russia, you said in february, we're not intimidated and will not be intimidated by the kremlin because ukraine and the e u r. family. but the truth is that the west is very much intimidated by russia, that the only reason for not giving care of the weapons at once is your fear of escalation and perhaps of nuclear conflict. and this is where we clearly remember at the beginning of the war last by russia. this was important for us on the one

hand to support ukraine. on the other hand, not to be part in 2015 other to, to avoid any we still facilitation. and he's very clear, i take the example of the nuclear weapons, it's, we are seamless fun when we induce china, for instance, another to convince the international community. china included to be very firm and very clear. the use of the threat of nuclear weapons is not responsible, and we need to do everything in order to show it to not be used when we support the united nations in separation. for instance, in order to prevent any resources collision, it shows that you are serious. we are responsible and again, the ukrainians. people in the you know exactly what we are doing to help them to resist. we're more than a year into this war, which may well define europe, security architecture for generations to come. and we're still not sure what the

use objectives are. so. so what is the big plan? because what scenario do you envisage? eternal war, frozen conflict? after all, the killing and destruction, these 2 countries are not going to just shake hands and be friends. are they? what, what, what's the big plan for if this war, when this war finally comes to an the bitch plan and the promise of european justice, security and prosperity and the sufficiency extremely easy, easy and difficult to implement? you absolutely right. but it's also what we do to what's been doing for ditches across the european turn tenant. but this is very, very clear that what we face is a tragedy 1st for the ukranian people, since it has an impact on the security and prosperity across europe. and it's why i strongly believe in what we told the strategy to autonomy of the european i think

it to this to fit is showing that is really important to us in 3 different strengths. first, energy, energy independence. don't need to explain a lot why you saw in, and this is very clear was the 1357 point european defense together. we need to, we need to but these are clear and we are acting that what we did in the past on the european. so when some members do decided to we use the investments in defense, we can see to the we need 3 to tours you need to, to, to your tip abilities is nice that we need more cognition, the european level, and point 3, you know, vision, it shouldn't be you know, that guarantee to prosperity. these are the 3, the 3 major pillars, and we have a vision. why? because we found that the future of ukraine and rolled over we seem to you did, is a very clear message. this is a very clear plan for the future of the printer and wow, presence landscape,

not getting all the weapons he wants. but what if ukraine stops losing? this was the contingency plan for that. what if russia against the old starts winning more battles on the ground occupying further territory? when you wake up and it's too late to get, get ukraine, the weapons it needs a russian victory cannot be an option. and this is why we support ukraine, and i've understood that you have your own impression about what we are doing. i tend to in to you that all the members, this all the european leaders, they know what's it fit. i will say you will not let a when are you, are you making that drum? this is, are we clear at this why you're making that from? this is very clear that we do every thinking that a to guarantee to your servant interpreter few create. it means the victory feel create, let be seem to clean, however long and long as long as it takes and i can repeat reputed to several times this commitment expressed by 27 had the state i can tell you own the forget to us

a very emotional moment the 1st virtual meeting within a few hours after the start of the 1st invasion, the $27.00 you were to need us were around the same table we spend solution by spitting virtually in committing. i to tell you that all of us, all of us, we immediately felt the seriousness, the importance of the moment. and that's why only in a few hours, we've been able to take from them into the scenes in terms of support for you. quinn, infection against russia. you've spoken by phone to vladimir putin over the course of the last year. if you had to pick one concrete result from the conversation from the discussion, what would it be that when i had form cautiously after the start of the 1st day of business, start out of the way when i was so we could do tuesday to, to focus on some human to insurances and attend you an example one. obviously this is, this is important to allow some humanitarian agencies the request,

for instance, in washing close to tech res disorganization. to make sure that they would have access to some territories in order to provide some support certain example, descent of prisoners very quickly after the start of the tools started through some international agencies on the chair of prisoners. these are 2 examples and point 3, i think it's very important also to, to, to advocate just even when we saw the roof, the principal. and this is why we are so committed to make sure that they will get to the ability. there is no place where trinity are you in the camp that says we shouldn't humiliate mr. brewton, these are not worth it. i would use beatrice. this is very clear that the put in is trying to humiliate a big part of the world's starting research, ukraine's and if you don't have much sympathy with mr. macros, i wish mr. mccormick, i would interview just this word. what is very, what is, is there,

we clear this is very important. also transitions the west of the world. this is really important because we have our own vision and we have a very strong teeth. we have to intro principle to, to need to, to, to defend the social vinny of the european union, the letter cooperation with this one to visit. we important also to engage with africa to induce the can america transition in defense if you region, that's another one you know, move other in order to counter the russian fit in for, for narrative and narratives as well. just because i really like to move on to china because paging has been awarded a lot of face time by european leaders. you yourself met? she did thing last year. i was struck by your comment on the meeting when you said that both the e u. n. china have an interest in a rules based world with the un charter at its core. really given china as

illegal expansion in the south china sea, the massive human rights violations taking place inside the country. it's clear they're not working from the same un rollbook as you are. so why suggest there's a common approach to rule face? well, when the clearly, when the clearly as a 1st 1st i funny believe in the mr letter. i certainly believe in the you in shop . what was my question, but i will answer your question and i said in point, you so that look nice. we know we can observe that china would like to set the international roost that wouldn't, that wouldn't be inside by the same venue that you have on your site for, for, for, for instance, nicely 3 points. you know, relationship research with china. first, we will be always the we firm in protecting in defending the human rights in the democratic principles is very clear and systematically when i had 2 children to

taught was a change or to tease i systematically your cation to, to, to, to explain our, our convictions on those question is point 1.2, i'm absolutely convinced that we need to, we balance the iterate relationship between china and the european union. and this is the idea to the rich relationship. but in florida you flag them with that all saying that they were in the same rules. well, this is, this is necessary to use this word is nathan just nathan. hi, i'm acting with regardless of china and point 3. if we are here use on the you side on time of change. if i hear you so on some sit with the challenges we need to, to talk to china. we need to induce china. it isn't me the, to your dream. all the stuff is research china. let's take climate change, for instance, is so important to try to convince china to be much more active, to put in place a carbon pricing mechanism. for instance,

let's fix turkey's names listed 2019 and, and for instance, if we want to address those show you the future, we need to talk with them and we saw that to increase into it. look, i'd like to come back to the issue of human rights, which would you stress, you didn't please everyone on your trip. 10 major human rights groups are incense that you've reopened, what they call the meaningless human rights dialogues, with beijing, which was suspended in 2019 after the you sanctioned chinese officials involved in human rights violations set point by those groups, isn't it? because the talks so far, i have changed nothing and will continue to change nothing. you agreed to talk about, you agrees and talk about human rights and they agreed to ignore how we'd like to discussion. i would like to ask you attrition. do you think that if we would stay in bruce, or if we would send a community from research on to stop it, we would achieve something and return to the to with the chief nursing. and it's like it's very important to induce. for instance, i'm very pro case without it was,

i'm very proud. i'm very proud that after the meeting we had to prevention in december, we've been able to, we launch this human device delettre. we've been because it isn't for us to advocate to mentioned turn concrete changes into try to, to defend, to really different the human, the human rights of principles, the democratic and without result and you without any results. i fully disagree you faint, follow your coach. it's me that we would be more efficient by staying here in brussel. we saw the condition of course, this time of course is difficult. i am not seeing that we do live winter in one meat or one soon, but i am convinced that if we do not induce absolutely certain that we will not deliver when we dish, we open the door in order to do ever seen to deliver just very briefly, the human rights groups attempt, major human rights groups don't agree with you at all. they say having a human rights dialogue with china cannot seriously be an end in itself. they want

to look just high log to real human rights progress, including in sion, janet to best way to do incidents. this is a very central point to exactly what you're doing. this is shina. this, isn't we? so the tub all discretions. yeah. but can you point to a single aspect of human rights in china that these talks have altered for the better in the past? can you since target 19 those thoughts were put on hold and 16 to relaunch those. it's all before. yeah, but since the 19 it was put on all in total and we did, we did a political space opposed to the tween difference though. so we've, we've history on all the topics that needs to be distressed and value in beggary before my trip to china. i had chosen to route many, we present that he saw him and watched the organizations and just so important it was just for me to listen to them and to use also the arguments that the shed we

spoke earlier. this year, china played host to francis president macro, who took a bunch of business with business with him to sign tre deals, and then decided to open up a rift between europe and the u. s. over taiwan. the great riskier faces he said, isn't gets caught up in crises that are not ours, which prevents it from building it's strategic. autonomy isn't at the height of irresponsibility to highlight divisions with the most important ally, america at a time when both russia and china of joined forces to erode human rights and the rule of law to, to topic the research of every clear european position alliance with native to see was trying to say we are public full digits, extremely clear point one and point 2 on time when there's also a very clear european position we do accept do tend to do to change in

either to either way the status quo in one's tweet point point one and we're we tonight, one china policy is the traditional european policy. nothing is changed, which we will talk with policy chief joseph barrow publicly slap down list your micro by saying you members should actually deploy war ships to patrol the taiwan strait in order to deter beijing's aggression. how are you going to sort out these differences of opinion on china within the 2 different things? first is a proposal made. they used to be behind to be the responsibility of the member states to discuss the topic. and he's the, the responsibility of the people have to put some proposals on the table point one . but it's not going to, it's going to rosa and get in from his a reactive in the pacific region which shows its forces that will interest for the, for the region. but let me tell you that i'm aware that in depression and media, especially in the recent days,

always there is an impression of huge divisions on the european side on china. entrenched real, know that the unity i will tell you because i think a little bit what the other sensitivities in the into chelsea. i think i can tell it in that. in fact we are much more convergent and then very country between the following 2 weeks. just a democrat today we have in europe, in the, in the, in the week to come. we will have the occasion to, to clarify, into the coming position of china. we will have enjoyed is my responsibility to put took you to agenda in the you can don't feel a little bit on, on china. we are preparing the debate at the mystery level with a different state older with our partners, with partners with our allies. let me ask you just one specific question, because we're running out of time. what's the use plan? if china invades tie one, what's the plan you use? the plane is to do everything to convince china not to matrix in the state. yeah.

but if you fail with this plan, he's been playing b a partners with to do what, in any case, really, what do you do you remember the week before the start of the war against russia we worked toward mission was all our partners to do to assist what would be our reactions and we will, we will do the same and we are doing the same so, and it didn't prevent the nation. yeah, yeah. it was in fact, you absolutely right. there was someone in the kremlin, we sure who to, to the decision to stop a crazy war the criminal saw. and we are doing every scene to talk to to make sure that you're quin because he's our interest. sha, michelle. great. have you covered some things are watching data

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