human seeking answers to such a question at the corner of africa's problems he says inside government and why is it still so prevalent? conflict would or supports all of our scoring. we say they were about never giving up sports flies every weekend on dw, the as with so many african come fix. the latest fighting into don has brought death misery to huge numbers of civilians. this time even the un has been shocked by what's it called? the unprecedented speed of this integration, whatever happens to africa's long last promise to silence the guns. mo, abraham 6 ounces to such questions. these are suit, denise born bridges,

billionaire, for the foundation, the researches africa's problems and rewards. those who try to solve them. does he ever lose faith in africa that feedbacks in some countries? unfortunately, one of them is my country. but we, we would find a way for one of the core of africa's problems. he says is by governance from why is it still so prevalent? how was it that african leaders voted themselves immunity from prosecution to the most serious crimes and what's behind the refused or some states to condemn most goes invasion of ukraine? is it payback for the rows of colonial occupies but we bring him some more. welcome to conflicts of thanks to us. you've tried so many years to promote that governance in africa. in some countries you've had some

success, but the violence never seems to go away. and su, don, the country of your bus decades of fighting another killing has become again, an honest how personal is this conflict to you is very best instead of work. and i will be able to have a bit of this. and what we have here is 2 sides to this, fighting a button in, in our capital. each side wants power and was power comes financial. this was, this is instead of the story, this is story of photos. yes. i made it to the cause is essentially old story unfortunately. and enough is enough for all those guys, despite the treasures by both sides to respect humanitarian principles, that hasn't been the slightest effort to avoid civilian casualties. why is it okay?

absolutely. i don't see the shift each of them think they can somehow when this don't they kind of be a, we're not here to kind of be one of the only who is us is find is losing a new so that these people are losing the little frustrated we have is being destroyed, detective easy, isn't a mess. and most of it is of buying the soldiers. it's, it is, it is very sad. do you ever lose faith in africa? no. despite to this, that's going to get but that's one can be out of $54.00 countries according to the index in the last, over the last 10 years. you know, we produce an index, somebody, you have governance in africa. the majority of episodes of applicants living in a bit of government countries that 10 years ago. so are moving forward. that's it

backs in some countries. unfortunately, one of them is my country. but we, we would find a way for what but this conflict is you've also said is taking place against the really dismal tapestry of backsliding. democracy as the number of states, bad governments. you've quoted africa's own goal. and you said we are responsible for how much of africa shit is your sense of responsibility for this? we okay. this the funding governor, governor, it's a z d. i bought a number of of, of deliverables. one of them, of course, is human rice delivery about sufficient it's, it's not, i don't have boxes, you know, corner me then is a human developments. and the security and the bitch of the bishop is really mix yes. course over the last 10 years after got made the point of progress in the area

of infrastructure and human development bits of educational based on hand, but non secured, no security i haven't heard of little is going down. and actually why, why is the connection between the 2 that the problem is marginalization of minorities and sometimes a, it's, it's inclusion, a creative assessment. then you have also extend the factors like climate change with your end up with conflicts between they have those of the farmers and if that's not to manage, it ends up. it's a, it's like a conflict like i've been in the for i didn't have a claimant on legitimate, but she has been using malicious to sort out the probably that end up and see 100000 people get. so it is, it, is, it mismanagement also of natural disaster habiting because of climate. that's one

element you you, you said earlier this year we started to see qu data, which we saw it was something in the past. we started to see this phenomena of a strong man. it's something we need to fight back against. how do you fight these so called strong men who are entrenched in the countries across south africa? protected sometimes by foreign policy, often by criminal gangs that kill for the sake of it. how. how do you fight back against? i think the young young people are looking to to having in comfortable weatherstone banners. so that for 50 years. encouraged jenna. but she was in section about 430 is created for this military organization. and i was just not enough for the him to have an army, he's going to get into the support forces and called him him might be, you know, and instead of him at the, is my board addiction and the,

the collision center. he just has an army. his party has a militia. he had ordered the stuff, the just curriculum just course. so to use, hit the same kids who grew up on the he's or those are the guys were dying of the city for them. oh gosh, a. this is a and b will will give us whole because they will not accept the soldier. they will not accept a tyler any. they will not accept the death of ships and you went to the city to 3, it is now green solutions. so then, because the young people would not accept this or just you, you say, you say that you say that, but that's one of the more depressing by products of conflict and back governance is that africans are showing increasing tolerance for the role of military and politics. according to afro barometer report last month, that view is particularly strongly young people, 18 to 35 year old. after a barometer reported that over the last decade,

opposition to military rule has declined significantly. now a slim majority, there's a majority, is willing to accept military intervention if elected officials abuse the past that has to be dangerous for them. of course, at least it is dangerous. and the problem is you take guinea for example, we have to have a difficulty abusing fall off his power and then trying to deal with the constitution someplace the, the, the, the position. i'm fed and a guy who was the democrat before getting follow then power gets to his head and now being data. when electrical came again, is this guy you understand why people say, oh, is one definitely good rate for him. so don't know, 3, this important political heavy to get rid of the really a corner of civilian who really up using is

a constituent and that losing his body. if uh yeah, if they can get rid of something. but then, but then the problem is you are, you are replacing the soccer and it was a different, i mean that, that is, it doesn't look like that. that's why i, its people need to live that there is also a loss to to seek z for of a bad z that it's also important to know what you're going for. and this is, that is instead of ending up mid support usability. cool again, is that somebody african looks tim, tim, about about the, the, the, the strong man. unfortunately, this is something we can passion of work with only in africa. our guys in africa, lou cut out. and the c o just thing meant strong. mean, all over the place, you know, and we have something that states will have. the key was russia will have

china web for the beans. what. how many strong men of them we see this fraction of a strong board is, is coming back again. what about this and i was, i look at this and say all that is wonderful when it comes to do like are all the about why i cannot be like to look at like under would be like, yeah, this is a time for strong man. unfortunately. and we need to wake up to that is what i'm african phenomena. it's a global phenomena. i'd like to talk back and go back to the bottom of this has taken place since the done at the moment. um one to the violence according to the un, which should both sides trump cling on humanitarian go back in 2010, the new york times bureau chief of east africa reported on how come back in africa had moved from soldier verse a soldier to soldier versus civilian the most domestic, despite, as he said,

what bevels with the cause, they were predators. and for them, tara became not just a means, but an end. to what extent is that still the case? it is. it is unfortunate to paper that a number come with some countries or plastic i'll have seen like a blank was in the list in the last few years. unfortunately, we thought we finished last. it was you who, you know, the disease at a, in the 70 sixties and seventies where every morning we used to have a course on wedding. i think we thought that this finished unfortunate is coming back. and something we need to be careful about is send, that gave us an extra is a question. i mean, i know it is, is today's to say this, but in all honesty, do we need armies in africa? why do we do that? what does the job of items the item is suppose to protect you on board? who is it and the african category?

so i think i don't have applicant categories to, to have any, was the between african countries. i don't record any. this is why you need the arms who's been though, is this money to get those guys, bags and guns an arrow blades when i want the one to come on to that and yeah, i'm in a moment to, to, i, i just, i don't think we need it, it is all nice and those guys has been goals as many of them, and then they come much with us with the cabinet that, i mean, what is last week. so those government told the un human rights council that it was basically none of the u. n's business, what was happening inside to done was an internal affair. they said, and the student needs armed forces. so of course of launched attacks, and this strikes intensely populated subsidiaries in the capital, as you said, they were simply doing their constitutional duty. what do you say to a government like that? does it make you angry for the hobby bombing its own people in the capital is just doing its constitution, but that is not the government. that's not, that's not the shipment. what causes those guys government?

it's the only government they have. i just it always people just took it by paula. by guns. yeah. no, to lift it down. no, to drive, look at it, but yeah, i mean, those guy is just, you know, making themselves lot of shows in general. those on the f i live or things acting, bouncing this while the african states to that african union actually is, is, is, so it's been that, so then that's it. that's all they've done. what else comes into? what as the problem is applicant here that hasn't well just on the bottom me for a long time, english at this time, the force of the african union should be finite and should be on then it is able to go and deal with all of those claim and as of categories and whatever. unfortunately, affleck under that hasn't been, hasn't godaddy has pentium good you the tensions doesn't to but it doesn't realize all the motor power. what. what, what happens assignments with guns by one and t 20. yes. what happens? what, what about 6, what is the account for the applicant? you know, what about security? because why does this security accounts a i think

a lot of people forgotten about the schedule cause is defined by the veto, is that the 5 cause, i guess, is by lice. the point, the whole bubbly order is in a mess. the whole popular, the whole, or the whole world of this, you know, or the global instruction. i miss you quoted accounts. it is important. cannot do anything. yeah. for can you the dfcs doesn't have the means to accept it. they've had all the extra bliss. i think he's more on the ridge which included the accounts of kind of even the so we're not seeing much of that as for where, so i know that's the, this is that the, that and finish is on the date. we have the conference, 2 weeks of all as we had most of our keywords on the old guys in the conference and just clear was the stand ones we want to do that if it's, if it is, comes to kind of go through their content. look, even expressed on obedience and what's going on for them. shift for you have access all over the come to do you. have you talk to either of the generals for the,

causing this concept to sit down at the moment. i know i, i don't have enough common ground even to start the conversation. i believe was guys of goodness that should end up and take will they of i to i whole thing, i hope so. what's the, what's the chance of $11.00 day it would come one day look. but she ended up in prison. i'd be able to sit all what but, but she understood, nobody can touch him. he wasn't prison. so what happened to, i'm afraid that is not what happens, the african codes pushing for african solutions and offering african accountability by what happened to that i thought from guinea and central african republic, where the trial i think is important to support the i. c. c. i o projected to there's an attempt to replace isis. he was an applicant court. i don't think that was the right decision actually.