lind charmaya, welcome to my pod cast. last matters that i advise celebrities, influenza, and experts to talk about all plain love data. and yet today, nothing less. the south. all these things in more and the new season of the fuck. com. make sure to tune in wherever you get you up plus costs and join the conversation. because, you know, it's last matter it'd been almost 5 months of virtual stalemate on the battlefields of ukraine. and yet, europe and america are clear that the f one gets a fight to aircraft and long range weapon systems, ones. so what's the ground phone seen from brussels? is that one? my guess is showing me show president of the european council. this is very clear that you do have, we think, you know, the 2 german teachers to return the superintendent to me. so feel free. it's one of

the rich story, a few created may seem to clear. and what about the confusion of a policy on china present? a macro says taiwan, isn't your business. your best phone policy chief says it really is whatever happens to unity in the european union. so obviously i was welcome to cover the to thank you. let's talk 1st about the war and ukraine, if we may, for the past few months, has been very little movement on the battlefields of ukraine. the west, you included, has given large amounts of aid and weapons, but clearly not enough to move the war into us. direction is the danger now that you are beginning to normalize a stalemate is very clear that the on the inside you determined to do everything to simple, to create a specialist return. and you're absolutely right. it's a very tricky also to stop all the for security division launched by rochelle, we decided to provide really to really quick. but this 1st time in your opinion is

history that you took such a decision. and since then together we have a partner as our allies across the world. we provide submitted to support to create we provide financial means to create, we help to clean or support the my 3 sites. it's not enough to move though is, is you, i just one of the example a few weeks ago we to the decision to, to, to get the new member states to produce a munition. because we feel that is excluded to strengthen our defense industrial business in order to speed up and you're absolutely right that it's important to do everything to, to accelerate efforts. this is really important that the uh, the ukrainians made the shows to to is this the extremely true interest and is a tragedy for them. and it's what i would do to iris basically is everything returned, you know, that to assist to, to support them. and of course, the,

they're not, they're not impressed with the relationship with the you at the moment you cranes 5 minutes to meet you calais, but has complained bitterly that the e u was failing to intimate its own decision on the munition to purchase munition for the country because member states were arguing over which suppliers they should actually expand since and sign the contract and since that statement made by them. so for the fact we had their chosen to clarify with the print authorities and you know, the truth was wasted. we are, we are entrenched intact teresa prisons and winston and was the ukraine authorities . and i can, we assure you that the, the know that we all we label friends and reliable thoughts. and they also know that this is that the magic bullet we do, and we seem to speed up you for taking significant political decisions. this is very clear that there's a strong positive choice on this and you side to, to, to, to, to be active. she know support through quickbooks and that was that it is that there

was still a bunch of bullets faces. we need to make sure that we reproduce more munition in the weeks and months to come. mr. clip as deputy andre melnick says that wolf fatigue among you members is now the biggest challenge for his country. there's a feeling he said that now the tank issue has been settled. people can put their feet up. a lot of them still don't understand that the war is far from over the sea, right to, to worry about war 50 in the, you know, it is very clear that we moved to convince. i was citizens across the u. a. what 60 it is, the future of the european union, the future of our citizens, our security, our prosperity. but not sure if you looked at the situation in a few months ago, i'm absolutely convinced that the putting circulation was the will for to wasn't impressed. simply change for the european union to stick to death,

to be united. and we're putting at a criminal by surprise because we are able to stick together. we are able to have the support of public opinion across the working. and we were a but we have been able to, to, to, to, to, to, to stick together with, with uh, northern america allies and other pop they're supposed to do say that, but your phone policy chief, you as a barrel said, recently fortune and maintaining a you unity against russians invasion has not always been easy. some states complained others disagree, but in the end we maintain the unity. so you've papered over the cracks. what, what could open those cracks up again, this is, this is very clear that you need to it, we try this a lot of effort, but the fax, all the facts, we should be able for instance, a to sanction were shot. you remember that the a lot has been search on the summaries of, of fund mentation. on the new side. we took to the c since altogether on 10

practically. so 1st thing since and we are implementing these positions. so essentially, we got work in order to get to be like the international community on the international stage, but i work in research efforts within the past issues we split and then maybe we can, you know, the to explain to argue as a, to try to print things, and sometimes you have to have the last one, sanctions come, i just, you know, make a point to you, but you're still using vast quantities of russian oil supplied mainly by laundromat countries. these are countries that load into the oil for most go and sell it on to you. china, india, turkey. you a single pool. do you know about this? have a switch. look what lines were on the russian or what to us. what was the situation a few minutes ago and a few minutes ago, we were on the european so, brutally dependent on the russian force in fuchs. and only in a few minutes, we succeeded to 2 decisions in order to, to reduce our dependencies and the doors to and those dependencies on the rest of

the russian flushing shows. this is why because this is very clear, why didn't you close this loop? does this, does this what we all do when you are working very hard to close all the different loopholes with, please? would you prefer the european union? nothing to position for going to the supply of energy resources for our businesses, for our hostiles? what do you prefer, the collapse of the european union? i suppose that there's not what so you are advocating for, and that's why we need to be was unable to be russian and to be determined is exactly what we are doing. on the one hand, we've done it through our long term strategy. we want to more renewable energy on the new side. we what we want to more independence in terms of the energy partition on the new site. and also to make sure that we defend our economic business. and if we defend the social institution of our citizens, you mentioned the risk of what for teeth and you are right is very important to

work in order to avoid being victim of sex service is free one to 2, to support the 1st citizens it's, it's pretty important for demonstrate that you are working, you know, the also to overcome the energy challenges for instance. yeah. but if you want to do something about war fatigue, isn't it time for a clear explanation of the new strategic objectives for ukraine and russia? plenty of generalized promises we've heard from you. you told ukraine in february, the european union will support you in every way we come for as long as it takes a can i can i just ask the question, for as long as what takes, what exactly does this promise me? this is very clear. and the original austin's nutritionist, interesting because so it showed that i'm not exactly sure the windshield approach in our approach is not new, which has to, which makes it easy to, to decide when it to but you make the promise. please please let me see the different features and try some new tricks and i will, i will answer. we split your question, we should have the ukrainians,

they have the responsibility and just as a suffering transferring to the side when and the way in which are elements in the, you know, the to, to assist. when does each time to, to, to, to, to open a new, a new chapter. and that's why we all support industries for me. the developed and proposed by president, let me see. and it's why the also supporting the say, dear to have an, an international piece assignment, you know, the to defend the ukrainian position in spite by what we believe in the move to the, to an older, the boost international older. the thing we told you on integrity, in silver and to of, to different to of, of, of nations. because the, what is the, you scared of russia? you said in february, we're not intimidated and will not be intimidated by the kremlin because ukraine and the u. r. family, but the truth is the west is very much intimidated by russia, is that the only reason for not giving care of the weapons,

it ones is your fear of escalation with ad and perhaps of new care conflict. and this is where we treated you remember the beginning of the notion by russia. this was important for us on the one hand to support your crew. on the other hand, not to be pots into $250.00, another to, to avoid any we surfaced generation. and it's very clear to try to the example of the nuclear weapons that we are extremely fun when we induce china. for instance. another 2 turns into this that committed to china, intrude and to be very fun and very clear. the newest and even the threat of nuclear weapons is not responsible. and we need to do every seems to know that to me, show it to not to be used when we supposed to hear the positions in separation. for instance, another to prevent any resurfaced collision. it shows that you are serious, we are responsible and again, the ukrainians. uh people and then you finish october. the new executive. uh, what we are doing now. the 2 had been toys, just removing the into this war,

which may well define europe's security architecture for generations to come. and we're still not sure what the use objectives. uh so. so what is the big plan? because what scenario do you envisage? it's on the wall, frozen conflict. after all, the killing and destruction, these 2 countries, i'm not going to just shake hands and be friends ave. what, what, what's the big plan for if this war with this war finally comes to the plan and the promise of erecting interest to security and prosperity. and then the situation seems to me easy. it was easy to set to and difficult to implement. you absolutely right. but this also what we do to in what we have been doing a full this is a across the work in 20 minutes. but it is very, very clear that the what we face a treasure that 1st for did you creating people?

so didn't you test an impact on the security and the prosperity across the world? and that's why i strongly believe in what we told the strategies to a ton of, of the you opinion, i sent it to this turn. 50 is showing that is really important to us in 3 different this trans 1st energy energy independence don't need to explain a lot to why is so important. and this is very clear, was the 3rd 152nd point you were in defense together. we need to within nato, but this is very clear and we are, i think that's what we built into fast under eruption. so when some industry decides to reduce the investments in defense, we think we need security tools. we need to try to tick abilities his needs between both trojan nation in repeating the level and for 3, innovation it to them based you know that the government and to persevere within these all the 3, the 3 major pillows. and we have a vision flight because we found that the future of new queen and was over is we

send you, this is a very clear message. we just have a clear plan for the future of they were contracting. and wow, presidency. lensky is not getting over the weapons he wants, but what if you can stop losing? this was the contingency plan for that. what if russia against the old starts winning more battles on the ground occupying for the territory? what if you wake up and it's too late? to get, get to credit, the weapons, it needs a russian victory. it cannot be an option. and that's why we support new create. and i haven't distorted it to you have your own impression about what we are doing . i can guarantee you with it, or the methodist is old and you were to lead us. they know what it states we use or you will not let russia we are. you. are you making that from this is, are we clear it is what you're making that from? this is very clear that you do have, we think, you know, the terms are intended to return yet a severance in signature footprint. which means the rich cohen feel create with the syndicate. however long though it takes, and that was the longest time that was it. as long as it takes and i can return it,

we picked it to several times. this commitment expressed by 27 at the stairs. i can tell you, i'll never forget to civilian motion in a moment. the 1st virtual meeting, grissman swinson, a few hours of to start with the 1st and vision. the 27 you need us were around the same table. we spend things by spitting virtually. it's amazing. i came to the office office with image, it says the seriousness, the importance of the moment. and that's why only in a few hours when they've been able to take from them. and so this is in terms of support for you, quinn and sanctions against russia. you've spoken by phone to reading the putting over the course of the last year. if you have to pick one concrete result from the conversation from the discussion, what would it be that when i had the phone portion after the start of the course, to like very start the process of the way when i had to do it, those photos we had to turn to, to focus on some issue mentoring, showing,

as you said, i can give you an example of one color creatures. obviously this is a, this is very important to know some shumate through agencies. the request for instance, in our washing coast and categories. this organization to make sure that they would have access to some to reduce the risk into the, to provide some support settings example, the district of present us very tricky after the stuff of do the torso stuff it's uh, through some international agencies on digital present. these are 2 examples, and in point 3 i, i think it's very important also uh to, to, to advocate because even when do we, so that was the principal. and this is why we are so committed to make sure that we different ability. there is no place we trinity, are you in the come to says we shouldn't humiliate mr. prove to his on that was that i would use pedrosa. this is very clear that the put in his way and to him and it a big part of the was talking with. so the ukraine's and you said you don't have much

sympathy with mr. michaels. i, i just want to talk to you with some, just on that call, but i wouldn't as used to this just this what, what disabilities, what is very clear. this is very important, or full transition was the west of the world. this is very important because we have our own vision and we, we, we have a very, we store case, we have a very, we store and true print for the tooth to, to, to defend. and the social or the european union, the route to that's why the corporation, what this one team was doing important also transistors, effort to produce restricting america between different in the past. if you're treating the, in other words, you know, just move, others know the, to come to the russian food or for that repetition and what, what are we all should narratives as well? exactly what just the rest and the choice going on? because i really like to move on to trying to because paging has been awarded a lot of face time by european leaders. you yourself met? she didn't think last year i was struck by you'll comment on the meeting when you

said that both the e, when china have an interest in the rules based world with the un charter at its cool. it really given china's illegal expansion in the south china sea of the massive human rights violations taking place inside the country. it's clear they're not working from the same you enroll book as you are. so why suggest as a common approach to a rules based? well, when they clearly, when they truly is a for the 1st the 1st i, i strongly believe in the move to the, to i post. i strongly believe in the, the wind shop is this one my question, but i will answer your question. makes it and point to so that i'm looking at it. we know we can observe that china would like to set the international ruth and ruth, the toilet that wouldn't be inside by the same value with that you have on the new site for, for, for, for instance, nursing 3 points, you know, relationship we saw it was china, 1st, we will be always,

always fun in predicting and defending the human rights in the democratic principles. and it is very clear and systematic. when i hit decision to told was a change of thirty's i system, i think you're chosen to, to, to, to explain our, our convictions on those questions. point 1.2. i'm absolutely convinced that you need to, we balance the internet relationship between china and the you appear in the union . and this is, this is the idea to the rich relationship free. so yeah, but you flex your flex at them with the tools, the thing that they, what you're interested in the say rules paid out. well, this is nice. what does this not serious to you? is this uh well, just enough my just not the how i'm acting too. so got you. so china and point 3 this for ya. series on the new side, on time of change for us here you. so on some of the sit with the challenges we need to, to, to try it out. we need to engage with the china. it doesn't need the to agree on the, all the stuff to 3. so try not let's to, to kind of change, for instance,

is really important to try to convince china to be much more active, to put in place a carbon price in meetings. and for instance, let's fix toby's name to the stick to the 19 and, and slices. so if we want to address those changes the future, we need to talk with them. and we saw the transition to us. look, i'd like to come back to the issue of human rights which, which you stressed you didn't please everyone on your trip. 10 major human rights groups are in the sense that you've reopened what they called the meaningless human rights dialogues, with badging, which was suspended in 2019 after they, you sanctioned chinese officials involved in human rights violations. fed up points by those groups, isn't it because of the tops so far have changed nothing and will continue to change and ethics. you agree to talk about your agrees and talk about human rights . and they agreed to a little how we'd like to discussions of that. i would like to us through a trash do feel that the issue with the inverse of century, with the center community, from research on those tokens. we want to achieve some sense of some of the terms

of the to what the chief notions and dislike is very important to induce in. for instance, i'm very pro, i am engaged without. i was, i'm very proud. i'm very proud. it's after the meeting we had to expansion in december. we've been able to, we launch this human wife delettre. we've been because institute and for us to advocate to mentioned turn concrete changes and to try to 2 different, really different assume that the human rights of printing thought and the democratic trends without failure, results and youth without any results. i, i fully disagree your friends. if i follow your approach, it means that we would meet more efficient by a student teacher here in brussel, we saw the condition of course fix time of coolant is difficult. i am not seeing that we are delivering to any one meet or anyone from but time to visit. if you do not induce activity, southern to treatment, nothing is when we induce we open the door in order to do ever since then he's just very brief. are you the human rights groups of 10 major human rights groups?

don't agree with you. a total. they say having a human rights dialogue with china cannot seriously being and in itself, they want to target. tyler wants to identify adult, a local to real human rights progress, including in st. john's, into banks. what do i do instead of this, of those things? so if i don't have it, isn't it, is that what you're doing with the system is china. we are, this isn't we saw the in terms of an old discretion? yeah. but can you point to a single aspect of human rights in china that these talks have altered for the better in the past? can you send stories 19 those tours with which on hold and we succeeded. we launch uh those before before. yeah, but the 3rd 19 it was a a b but, but put on own and towards the end we are doing. we are doing a political space, a 4th to develop to industries though. so was this. so it was a century on all the toughest that needs to be discussed and evaluated. by the way, before my trip to china, i, i had to have chosen to meet me. we present that piece of those to me in wifes to

organizations and, and it was really important didn't for me to listen to them. and so he was also an arguments that the, that the shed earlier to see a china played host to from since president macro, who took a bunch of business with businessman with him to sign tre deals. and then decided to open up a risk between europe and the us over taiwan. the great risk your faces, he said, is, gets caught up in crises that are not ours, which prevents it from building it strategic or trying to be in the heights of irresponsibility to highlight divisions with your most important ally, america at a time when both russia and china have joined forces to it road human rights and the rule of law. to talk to us that there is a very clear, erect in position. a life is connected, stacy's very strong, didn't say when you're over for the business. extremely care point one important to

untie when there's also a very clear you work in position. we do the exit, do tend to get to, to change in any like to either way the state to screw. uh, uh, in that one story. it's important point one. uh, and we withdrew nice the one china policy. this is the traditional direction policy and nothing to is changed, which we dealt with. your foreign policy chief shows a bureau public a slap down with your macro by saying you members should actually deploy more ships to patrol the taiwan strait in order to do to page things, aggression how you're going to sort out these differences of opinion on china within the, you know, 2 different things. first of this, a proposal to me that usually people have to be the responsibility of the member states to distrust the focus. and he's the, the, the responsibility to you for just a bit behind to put some proposals on the table to point to one. but we're not going to get some important point to this along the road into those. and the instructions are, we'd like to continue. depression, contrition would show that forces so really insightful that the,

for that the region. but let me tell you that i'm aware that in depression and media, especially the recent the diesel, always the there was an impression of a huge divisions, a on the european side, on china under the impression to the real know this. but the reality i will tell you, because i think i know to be to what are the sensitivities in the, in the don't see the, i can't, i can't tilting that. in fact, we got much more conversions. and then we transfer them to, to the, for the winter, we've induced a democrat to do that. we have in europe, in the, in the, in 2 weeks to come. we, we have to do you have children to, to clarify, into the coming position of china. we went ahead in june is my responsibility to put the tokens agenda into your pin dose hill. this is a bit on china we, we are preparing the dispute at the new serial level. was a different the state older with our office and we so thousands we have a life. let me ask you just one specific question cuz we're running out of time.

what's the use plan? if china invites tie one, what's the time you, you, the planning is to do a we seem to convince china not to matrix in the state. yeah. but if you file, what does that make sense? okay. what does this does? this plan does this been in plenty? uh, i was talking us, we talked on the eruption of sort of everything responsibility to do what in any, in any case, what do you remember the, the weights and just for the start of the war against russia. we worked in chose to ignition it was all with partners in order to assess what, what to be a reactions and we were, we, we do the same and we are doing the same type of problem and it didn't prevent the nation. yeah, yeah. because in fact, you're absolutely right, there was someone in the kremlin which who, who took the decision to install a crazy war, the criminal tool. and we are doing everything to, to, to, to make sure that the increase when we, because this our interest show me show the great have you and confidence some kids

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june 8th on dw, the, the state of the news line from berlin. germany border is the closure of for russian consulates. only the berlin embassy and one general consul. it will remain move as in response to russia's announcement that it will cap the number of german officials in its country. also on the program. are we experiencing the world's 1st real drone? we take a look at how this piece of paper is shaping the.