ever seen a stone in the side of the secret house isn't really said he the fugitive right now . that's literally nothing is right here. the where it is, who is covering the wanted stops, june 29th on dw, the after months of predictions, it has now begun. ukraine is low and states counter offensive and forcing russian invaders of ukrainian tennessee that, that now occupying the weapons provided by the west of thought to be play a key role. but what happens after the offensive and just the west have a longer term strategy when it comes to dealing with ukraine and with russia?

i'm feel gaming by then, and this is the day i the still make it at least is what the mike, at least as much as what might be expected. the enemy showed resistance. tried to pin this down with artillery. but we managed to break through that and take the initiative with not saved the main, so definitely not seen made of main force. you crazy brigades get committed, slow the house by house we took the village at the credit. is that excellent? the section is a type that if we can expect them to do the pick up also on the day italy shaking this morning by the death of full time prime minister silvio berlusconi. at the age of 86. maybe. oh, really familiar. you seem to molto, but anyway,

i'm sorry to hear it because even though i don't show his use the tools, he was to say that he did really historic things that have all these years. and he was a great political impresario. problem to the day, ukraine's counter offensive against russian occupies, has gradually taking shape kinds ministries as it should be taken a number of villages from russian forces in the southeast of the country. the gains reported over 2 days of the 1st by your training months. the village is set you up in recapture and a cluster of settlements in that region. this partially occupied by russia. ukrainian troops released this video, which they say shows, imposing with the flag and one of the captured villages that she has. ministry, however, says it has repelled you crazy. the attempts to advance in the area as well. in that video, released by the ukranian ministry soldiers spoke about the advance. here's one called doc describing what happened. a product temperature last to the operation

started as around 5 in the morning we study. so we deployed from our vehicles and started to charge for chuckle, water. the enemy showed resistance as quote they tried to pin is down with artillery for you. but we managed to break through that non take the initiative. but a lovely thing is that there was nothing it that they will for you. it will slow the house by house. we took the village for so we we destroyed the enemy, special buffalo equipment, but asking for assistance with taking this p o w. so he checked the phase 2 blocks out the falls. i see from that time as a senior fellow and the american stagecraft program economy, he and diamond for international peace. like many of us, he's been watching the war in ukraine unfold. but for some time, he's also been thinking about the future and whether a stable piece can be achieved. welcome to dw, and let's start with the wes current stance towards this war,

backing for ukraine. come, what may do you see? this is a sensible position or i think it makes sense given this stage of the war, but it will soon not make a whole lot of sense and there will be a need to move beyond the uh, the pastor of as long as it takes. and finally, answer that question that's begged by that phrase. as long as it takes to do what i think there's a pretty wide awareness in europe in the united states. that the outcome of the current counter offensive, which is finally underway, will be really important to trying to evaluate what can you crane realistically achieve through further conflict and what might afford you create enough security to return to the negotiating table or at least attempt to go to the negotiating

table and see if moscow is, is also interested. ok, lots to, to pick from, from what you've just said amount in that one on. so you say that, but besides that you'd is ok for now. so what's changes at what point the just the west side. all right, let's, let's just rethink this as well. i think as the, as the counter offensive comes to a close later in this year. and i want it besides much later. it is the very early days we can't draw any conclusions really about how the offensive will go from what we've seen so far. but toward the end of the year and the ottoman, you know, then i think we'll have a sense of how ukraine has fared. and in turn, that will put people in a position to ask, you know, what, what another year of fighting yield and how solid is the coalition of ukraine's partners in supporting ukraine is time on russia side or on ukraine's

side. so i think these conversations are already happening to some degree. anita will hold a summit in vilnius next month, and that will also be an occasion to, to think about what ukraine's post war post conflict support might be. an interesting you, your use of words that the post of war situation involves and paste because any pace, if it comes is likely to be an, an easy one forward ukrainians. i would have thought was either they win and join night so and then they have to constantly worry about the russian bad on their doorstep or they lose and become absorbed into rushes. sphere of influence in the west gradually becomes bored or distracted by other matches is not only do we not know when this war will, and more importantly, we don't know how. and it's not clear that there will be

a clear ending on the conflict that took place that began in 2014, in don bos became a quote unquote frozen conflict. so it was not resolved. there wasn't a piece. but it was also regarded by many observers as something other than a, a very active war. so a kind of stalemated situation is one potential possibility for this conflict. although the scale of this conflict is, is much greater than and then the one that was confined to, to, to dog boss, since, since 2014. so i think we might actually see, we're used to thinking of a binary between warren peace. we might see something that is somewhere in the middle where we need to take a long term view of what will provide security for ukraine and do so in the midst of a war that we all very much hope will come to

a definitive and lasting end but very well might not, for example, um, make a multi year commitments by ukraine's partners to provide defense materials to, to ukraine. this is something that could start sooner rather than later. and could actually have a positive effect on the conflict itself. it would show russia that western support will be ongoing. so that can't just weight out ukraine and weight out the west. i might also give you crane greater confidence that it doesn't need to adopt the most maximal list ams in this war, because it has a viable path for security and the longer term, and just the end in tubs that longer to secure. so you kind of ukraine, that is somewhere in the middle as you put it. i cannot ukraine join nature too.

well, there's been increasing discussion of that possibility. it's something that you create in a want at this point that you create a new president vladimir zaleski has said that he, he wants, although he's recognized that under nato standards, it couldn't happen until after the current conflict. and again, there's been a conflict between russia and ukraine since since 2014. um, i think though, when we think about whether ukraine should uh, eventually join nato. it's useful to think of a balance sheet of how would ukraine's membership enhance to trance versus the possibility that it might provide a provocation that would cause russia to reinstate so many people hope that nato is the basic data is the ultimate to current. so i think that that is subject to questioning. i fear that the nato pledge and ukraine's case would potentially have

a credibility problem. because in fact, a when ukraine has been attacked by russia since 2014 and since 2022, every nato country has demonstrated that it did not, in fact, wish to go to war with russia directly to defend ukraine as article 5 of nato's charter would. would require, so that makes be concerned how would moscow actually perceive the credibility of the deterrent? on the other hand, if you have the prob occasion, and you know, a lot of our putting has consistently said that ukraine, joining nato is unacceptable and would be treated as a threat to russian security. it was one of his, several rationality for launching the, the full scale invasion more than a year ago. and frankly, this is concern that you know, whether we like it or not. and we don't like it. i said to speak for people in

washington, among many others, but it's been well recognized over the over decades that as the current c, i, a director bill burns, wrote when he was in bassett, or to, to russia in 2008 that ukraine joining nato would be the brightest of all red lines for the russian to leap. not just to cool. okay. he's giving us much to think about that. we thank you for, for that statement that time from the comic and damage for international pace. thank you. so my pleasure. it's really now and remembering formerly to silvio berlusconi who has died at the age of 96 passed away after months of illness. use one that he was the country's longest. subbing prime minister building at media type could remain active in politics even after he left office. in disgrace and spot control was the last year . these comments which went interpreted as being supportive of russia. a day of

national morning has been declared for wednesday, easily bids farewell to one of its most influential political figures, silvio berlusconi, dominated the wealth of business and politics for decades. a billionaire who made his fortune from a thriving meteor empire, and the populace lead a plague by scandal. don, yeah, italy learned from him that it should never have limits imposed on it. but it learned that it should never give up. who with him? we fought one last many battles and for him to we will bring home the goals that we had, set ourselves together. your good buys, you'll be out of the many loved him. many hated him. everyone today must recognize that his impact on political but also economic sporting and television. life was unprecedented. the starting, the presented himself as

a self made man. he transformed each of these political landscape building the country. biggest commercial tv network and leading photo italiano essential rights . political party, with his polarizing policies, critics accused him of eroding democracy. and he was infamous for diplomatic guests and scandals. the most notorious of which sent it on his circled bunk among the policies. bella stony faced prosecution molden 30 times for alleged embezzlement, false accounting, bribing a judge, and for allegedly soliciting sex with the mind. after initially being convicted, he was eventually acquainted of the charges and meet the scenario, bowling scandal. he step down his prime minister in 2011 by millions of battalions, celebrated his phone from power. despite the controversy many admired his brush style maybe or really familiar,

you seem to multiple. but anyway, i'm sorry to hear it because even though i don't share his views, the tools, he was a say that he did really historic things i have all these years. and he was a great political impresario. story, as i don't know, what bad things this will lead to, but i'm sure this will be very destabilizing for folks are totally a in recent use, belzoni was in and out of hospitals. as his health became increasingly fragile. he leaves behind a new generation of more radical right wing populous to politicians. bellis carney will receive a state funeral on wednesday at milan cause a dro. let's just pull this aside. it was all in favor and here's the us john list and also on my way about a scone in his own words. based on hours of conversations you have with silvio

berlusconi on faith and joins us from the gunner in switzerland. welcome to the day of his to receive a state funeral. i'm doing that would be the case if the right wing government. do you help to forward washington power? that's a good question and the, the answer is maybe not. so certainly it was part of a scone who will be remembered as the man who opened the door to the far right. he bragged about it in 2019. he said, thanks to me. uh, that's our rights as joining the government and probably uh he will the, the narrative and actually right now with the but the right government is, since he was a member of it, the smallest member is. this is a statesman and he's going to get all sorts of ours. of course, the perspective on the center left is very different. and, you know, he was always a divisive figure who was both loved and hated. because i was going to ask you at how did see change the country that he led to so many times and,

and for so long. and that's opening the door to the far right. that's, that's quite a legacy. that's quite a change. that is one of his most important legacies because although he was successful, billionaire medium overly builds up in the eighty's and television network. uh and he was able to 1994 to bring the far right together and others are not gonna. so listen and take over and play for a brief government. he is somebody who really changed and transformed italian society and culture over a 20 year period, really from the early ninety's, until uh, just about 10 years ago when he resigned to disgrace. and that was because he use the power of his commercial television. not only get himself elected, but it was a different kind of moved from murphy television sort of like in germany. the 1st time you had the commercial tvs up against the state television. 20 to 30 years ago . yeah, i'm so was, it has a pace, maybe a presence, but made himself popular,

allowed him to recover from what seemed like an endless stream of scandal. will, as is biographer, and having spent a is usually a $150.00 days with him over the age of, of periods. do my movie, my documents, we have my book on him. i can tell you that he's, he's got a big ego. he believes he has the vision for a play, and he certainly was popular because he's very charismatic, is very likable. he's always when you meet him, he's always trying to make you laugh. but of course he was also very crude, very bolder. he did not do behaving to state like way of international stomachs. quite the contrary. he made jokes about brac, obama, a bottom up being a permanent lead times person that's verging on racism. but he was forgiven, always forgiven by the italians because he was uncle silvia attributes audience, a kind of figure who they considered seemed part to go. and now the narrative of

lee is, is all about of worshiping him. the reality of course, is he was a conflicted figure, a slot figure surrounded by scandal, and highly controversial, who didn't really get that much done. as prime minister, he was more active to taking care of his personal interest than governing the country. as i'm going to america, i had occasion to notice back in 2011 a. do a tub is or a regard disability that politician as someone who truly wants to make their lives better or rich mind using political power to make himself even richer. if everybody is asking me the same question, if he was so scandalous, why was he re elected so many times? the answer is that he was the original populace long before donald trump, there was berlusconi. he promised the world the moon. he said he was a billionaire, a successful businessman,

who knew how to fix the economy. he promised millions of jobs. he made lots of promises, but he never kept. but the people kept coming back for more. why is it that when he complained about a witch hunt and being indicted on so many correction charges and people voting for him? because his supporters lived in this almost the cult following where he was the man they worshiped last. so different from donald trump, supporters today in america. right. and the very to 6 year old 1000000000 ad mesa, 33 year old girlfriend, 2 x wires and 5 children. are we not likely to see a big fights over his will? i don't think there will be a big side because i think it's pretty clear to everyone that he's dr. marina, who really is the most senior, a business executive in his empire is in charge of together with her brother. so now i don't think we'll see a big fight the wives have all been paid off over the years. even his former

girlfriends have received the villas and things. so i think uh, the bernasconi empire now has to park the business side of the political side of the business side. his family will inherit the business and maybe that eventually sell it best possible. but we don't know yet. and on the political side who's time a party now that used to be so big. what are you realistically, at 38 percent is now just 6 or 7 percent of the above and is likely to crumble of it and goes to other places. because without so we're just going to use party is difficult to bring a forward assess the nice thing about assessing. we think we follow that touch on this and also ellen friedman in the life and times of sylvia. now this guy who has died. thank the was another 1000000000 i made headlines tonight. george soros is still very much with us, but he is handling over control of his investment in philanthropic empire. so his

son, alexander, sort of says $25000000000.00 business holdings include the non profit, open society foundations shall funneled around one and a half $1000000000.00 a year to human rights and pro democracy causes. what sources 92 years old and has often been targeted by inviting autocrats and governments for he's backing of liberal causes. your son says he's more of a politician than his father. i'm just pledge to broaden the foundations privacy is to include voting, abortion rights as well as gender equality. a this get moving on the sort of legacy and what this change at the top is likely to main. we can bring in just an oil. every time king a welcome to the w, she's also of the influence of solace which looked strategies live and how he became a favorite target to of the right. the most recent, the book by jews looked at the history of jewish american politics. and i dentist say, enjoys us from the austrian capital ban. okay. get, i'm,

let's start with his best face image that he has, whatever we here is main besides today. and usually it's, it's in the mouth of the east european leader who is condemning him for being this that, and the of the why is he such a boat? the amount for right. we went across the government's east european or a or back home in the united states from from our railing figures. i personally be very clear that i'm speaking here about conspiracy theories and smears. not about criticism, you know, which much of which can be fair but there's i sort of see there's being 2 reasons for which conspiracy theories about soros are so popular. the 1st is that look, i once had someone into the voc yesterday to me, you could not imagine a more perfect stereotypical cartoon bill. and just because of his biography, because he is from hungary, which full here and back home has certain connotations because he lives in new york . he's in finance, he's jewish. all of these different, you know,

sort of characteristics onto which people can project their own stereotypes. when you hear, when you hear it, all these other connotations come up. and the 2nd thing is that his philosophy has opened siding conditions, you know, and it's about building a society in which all of us have, and people are equitable chance to participate. and it's not based on estna city or religion or race. and that is something that i think is directly counter to the vision that many of those attacking him would like to see and active. right. and so what do we mail got about his son who's not going to take over the family business of who is a and why that these days that change his mind about time and the business over to him? yeah, i think it's been clear for not quite a decade, but for several years now that alex soros, son from his 2nd marriage disorder, the heir apparent to the, to the soul tropic i am hire. if you like. he's 37 years old. he always in new york, i think it's important to remember that he has a very different biography from his father and soros became george soros became we

is by surviving nazi occupation of hungry and getting out of hunger and are socialist control and, and really, you know, being introduced to this philosophy of called hopper at university college, london and building his own for the making is unfortunate and building this, you know, built building this thing. and his son is the product. so he's the product of that world in that time. just son is the product of the person who built all of that. so i think that they are quite different people. they had extremely different biographies obviously. but we also know that alex arose is much like his father, you know, is a center left liberal minded. i don't think that i, you know, of course he's, he's a different person, but i think we should expect continuity as well as change it. he's, he's, you know, the sort of speaks of the same liberal in those but his, that us and george saw as has been a massive financial, doesn't have to the us democratic policy. i'm will this a change of the top of any significance in terms of the packing for candidates next

year's presidential election? i think, i mean his sunset and as this interview, that in the wall street journal that he's even more political to his father, which we should say that you know, it's not, it's not that works for us. hasn't been politically involved since 2004 in the united states has been a major donor, not only to kathy and the candidates, but also to causes you know, one that gets a lot of attention back home is the progressive district attorney. and it is because he's interested in criminal justice reform. and so i think we should, we should expect that to continue the focus of exactly which causes the political wing gives to might change slightly. but no, i don't, i don't think that we'll see a retreat from from that he said, and they sort of would have, have both said you and others in sort of in that formative said that it wouldn't be wonderful if big money weren't in politics, which is one criticism that people have of sorrows and it's as you know, 1000000000 or masters more generally, a 1000000000 or donors were generally but so long as there is money in politics, they feel that the, the liberal side should be getting as well to who you are. thank you so much for

joining us in outlining so clearly i jealous to know if i'm really talking you've had any as well the day is almost done. the conversation continues online to find us on social media channels, dw use for more in depth analysis at dw, don't com on the w the

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front bought the the this is data on the news line from the night. so stage is the largest air force exercise in it's history. and by germany, the drills involved 25 countries and more than 10000 troops, the seen a sending a message to moscow also on the program from italy and find that it's that silver bell. the scone dies 86 in the back of the legacy.