or that the nation for basically middle class 7 months before russia attacked to ukraine, a filtering documents daily life of the town. how are the people who are dealing with the growing tension? they change their world frame hold on. we are with, you know, when i me insight starts drawing on dw, the china has not changed its position, neither on ukraine, nor on time on and yet china is trying to win. friends can mutual trust be established again? china has so far, refused to criticize the shell for its water, new trade. it remains adamant on the thigh one issue as well. this handshake seemed like adjust to the device diplomacy. she gen thing, receive blinking,

fuss movie. but the dies also fraud that re establishing stability looks fall fast. mean by in germany, johnson to all of charles repeated his appeal to china to use its influence on russia to help in the war on a bill that was blatantly ignored. so on to the point we are asking china global ambition can to west keep up the hello and welcome to to the point, i'm each of how do you sound? i'm hearing belen, it has been a week off visit us secretary of state and to me blinking visited china was chinese premium. leach young, made has false bought and trip to germany and from both of these visits could be called successful during this time that i've 3 wonderful i guess with me today the

have john scouts now. he's in all tops broad, costa, and has worked with various media houses and also rides for international publications on global affairs. next, on demand movie have dodge event is chief international editor to walk over that. and last but not least, he has got stream to the ashbrook. she is a political scientist. she has worked with cnn as a tv doing this and she continues to die for various international publications on foreign and security by a very long back. i'm to you, a lot of times we're joining richard, i mentioned to with it, but as being a told one as well. and then from into submitting some of these with it to the us. just a coincidence, timing wise, or is it part of a bigger strategy? yeah, well, i mean, i think we did. the timing is may be the co, incidental. but obviously, you know, state visit to the united states states a very long time to organize the and tony blinking visit to china is something that

has also been kind of long into making it. but uh, but i mean bodies visits of us is certainly seen as it is a very important visit. i'm certainly a lot of a lot of symbolism in that the united states is really trying to reach out to india as what it sees as a potential partner in trying to manage the risk around around china, india in the pacific region. um, so yeah, i mean a week there's absolutely packed with diplomacy. i you almost a new way to begin on that but, but yeah, the moody trip sent me something we're going to be watching very closely here. catherine, just to be after blinking up, visited, beating biden dressler to she's in thing as a dictator. now, on the one hand, he's for walk in china, and on the other hand, he's welcoming multi with open arms. what kind of message is he trying to send up? well, i think on the diplomacy piece, this is classic triangulation and diplomacy. i mean, you have seen, if you were to tribute anything to the west that would look like

a coherent strategy. it would be that the west has tried very hard to focus on the biggest part of the bricks, which is to say, uh, illuminating russia from that equation which is, you know, beyond the pariah and the international system. but has tried very hard, at least to be reaching out to different parts of that constellation and my new way . my call is talking to brazil as president lula sort of, as we, as we speak. you know, we're thinking hardly at least to the west or attempting to about how we address the true issues of the global south. and it has been very specific, you know, it has an enormous economy to run and it has certain needs unless those needs are met. you know, this indian leadership has been very proud with test. and so that's what it's looking for from its various western interlocutors and the west has to leaning because of course, yes, the threats of china and russia are consistently of the offer, but to the by them piece we have to contextualize, were joe biden was when he said what he said, i think for the wider diplomatic arena, probably not a great move. and yet we have to see that he was at a campaign event. he was at

a campaign event for his re election only a few hours effectively after it was revealed that china has built or is building a spy hub in cuba. and is potentially investing in military training of cuban military personnel. one might say in a quick protocol, move of the americans leaning increasingly into their military aid for taiwan. and at the same time, congress announcing it wants to do more for taiwan. so in as much as there's the global international diplomatic picture, there's also domestic pressures on this president. i just the election. exactly just, you know, 1514 months ahead of a major us election. a lot of plans here, john. now the body language between blinking and changing things on the one hand, unload the invite and on the other hand is also being discuss a lot what do you make of it? at the heart of all of this is this whole question of pivot states. in other words,

as obviously the western approach to russia, as it is as an immediate acute threat, there is the longer time strategic piece, which is how do we deal with china, which will be discussing. but the sad part which is less discussed are all the states that are emerging and uh, absolutely important counter weights to the west on the one side to china, on the other. these are states that are a love, see a lie, and in terms of it's not that they haven't decided all they during and that along with the west or china, they are simply standing up and saying, you gotta talk to us, you have to engage us and we will work with whoever we want to work with on the basis of our national interest, which is why is use a new introduction. the moody visit to the us was so important because the west has basically taken a view. the body is the bulwark against china. perhaps the most important one of

the most important, the west is now prepared to pretty much kind of blind eye to bodies, also retiree and attendance is within india. they've got to do the same with other one re elected in, in tacky and other states as well. that's a question of we're dealing with we being the western mindset is dealing with a world that is very different to the one that appeared to be the case only a few years ago. talking off mondays, visit this is movies 6 with the to the us and sticking over as prime minister in 2014. but his 1st stay it was a to the us. meanwhile, i know you a secretary of state has been to china since 2018 and in spite of both sides, claiming that they wanted a deal with friction, their strategic assessments of each other remain unchanged. chinese presidency receiving us secretary of state, blinking in badging. they are on speaking terms again and according to she more than that. so it seems like the 2 sides have also made progress and reached

agreement on some specific issues. this is very good. more passenger flights between the us and china, more pieces for students and business people. a reciprocal visit to washington by china is for administered small steps. but the large conflicts remain including commercial disputes with reciprocal sanctions, cheese proximity to or large pollutant badging, aggressive military threats to democratically rules, taiwan and chinese territorial claims in the south china sea. most recently, there were dangerous confrontations between chinese and us fighter jets there in may. and lincoln cannot report that the 2 militaries are speaking directly to each other again. at this moment, china does not agree to move forward with that. i think that's an issue that we

have to keep working on. china and america help 10 says the relationship between the super powers john tensions between china and us. now the relations are of the lowest drive now is enough being done to divided well as we were talking about bite and his remarks about and she being a dictator, you never quite know where the bite and means to say what he says or whether he speaks so i didn't know whether that was just the, the adrenalin of the campaign trial. but us and, and europe and being towing with how to do a deal with china. haven't worked out both within themselves and between themselves . how to do it. germany far more exposed to china, right, in terms of trade as, as all, most european countries. i'm in all the different strategic reviews, germany having just published it's uh, it's one of the a few days ago and all the countries,

the description of china ranges from an acute threat to a strategic rival, to a strategic compact as a, to a partner to all kinds of things, and the reason people don't know how to describe it is because they don't know how to deal with china and, and the carrot on the stick. completely in contrast to russia. now, of that western countries have pretty much removed their exposure to china's, to russia's oil and gas. there was no reason to need to engage with russia economically. rusher is a, is a spent force. it doesn't have a political model that anybody particularly wants to emulate it. has brute force and it has a nuclear weapons, but beyond that, there was no russian appeal. china is completely different. the west is actually dependent on china for such natural resources and role materials supply chains, us so interwoven that it's very difficult people are trying to on shorts, initial to friend shore,

to use the times to be less dependent on china. but look at germany's automotive industry. look at so many countries, economies. so how do you work out this, this, this threat versus opportunity question? that's what everybody is trying to do. but america's position on 31 has not changed . and yet lincoln found the need to say again, that we do not support independence on. why will such required? well, the chinese position on taiwan towards the united states is essentially saying to them, you say that you have what, what the chinese cooler one china principal, the americans go to one china policy, which is, which is saying that they recognize the people's republic of china as as the legitimate government over china, that they do not recognize taiwan as an independent states. um, but the american say was absolutely essential. is it so that policy on this whole thing is that there must be no unilateral attempt to change the states as quote and particularly not by force. and,

and i think the reason why blink handles that we've had this from joe biden also when he to possibly g 20 summit in bali when he has he met c jim pink the last time i'm reiterating that position in public. because the, the chinese are saying, well, actually, this is what us in sibley mean, but your salamis license that you're providing weapons more and more weapons. the taiwanese and joe biden is also in various comments where there's also be an interpretation about what's the despair of the moment thing, or was it a really intentional thing has on various cases. the last couple of years said that if the chinese were to attack taiwan, but the united states would definitely come to tie one's aid that goes beyond official us policy. and whenever he said that, then the, the administration is usually want to comment back within the space of $24.00 as well. so and the chinese, when they look at this, they say your, your salamis slicing your your policy. you say that you believe in one, china,

but in reality, you're providing weapons who are providing more and more political support to taiwan. for instance, with the visits to of the speech of the house, nancy pelosi to taiwan last year, which caused, which was one of the the, you know, the things that alicia is extreme, the style of periods in us china relations. so that's why blinking is, is saying that when he's in badging, then how do you can use would react if china low to use minutes reaction info on? well, i mean, hopefully with some way away from that. but of course, i think what the united states and the world's being confronted with with rushes and vision of ukraine. is it, it's made even clear at the something that is being thought of as a sort of a theoretical possibility for many years. because that's the china is always said that it resolves the right to take taiwan by force. now letting me preaching is gone ahead with a full scale invasion against ukraine. this just makes that that prospect seem older, more conceivable. and there's a debate though about whether china looking at what's happening and ukraine might

be thinking, okay, yeah, they might be learning lessons about how to, how to do it, where they might be getting dissuaded from doing it because they see how difficult it is. they see the, the huge ramp up in sanctions and the, and the, the relatives units, you have the west in, in facing out to this. so thinking about what the consequences could be for, for china, and stayed mountains of some sort of invasion of that. and will also be confronted even more with, i think, the, the, the, the great, the difficulties to take to i want compared to. and can you claim, given that taiwan is an island? that's a very um, so is whether it, whether it's more or less likely, it is one question, but it's certainly confronted to everybody, not just americans, but most of the europeans with the realities that one, this could happen to one day and both of them by them and you, she's in being able to be face to face and g printing september and later on ethics, do you think that would be able to take things forward? well, i think that's certainly what the americans are hoping. and we heard in valley that

what they wanted to prepare was a saul into phlegmatic relations. and at least we have to get back to a motor come of steady exchange. so the idea was that the preparation of the blinking visit, of course, which were supposed to happen in february, and you remember that the spied balloon incident interceded in that specific readout on both sides, made that situation very valid tile at least diplomatically. but you have points in preparation for this blinking visit. ultimately you had a visit by a chief bill burns. you had conversations with uh by jake sullivan. uh, the head of the national security committee is the and i see in washington with whose counterpart in geneva design and kind of set the tone and the americans have pegged an agenda item very clearly, which is that we come again to a point where we have military to military exchanges because the situation over the past few months and we heard it in the piece has become increasingly volatile. it's not just been sort of uh, incursions in aerospace or where american jets and chinese jets has encountered one

another. that's not just happened once, but a few times. the same thing is true. i served in the maritime at rena, and the navy is coming to close to one another and not an ability to interface with one and one another very directly. so it's very clear that now this potentially even this visit, even despite the bite and comments, opens the doors for what is planned and already on the docket, which is that janet yellow and the head of the fed is supposed to have interactions with the chinese john kerry that had climate invoice, the united states is supposed to have very substance detox with their, with his chinese counter parts. and then of course, you know, right, mando on the trade questions, which are i think vital between the 2. and in as much as richard and john pointed out how dependent the europeans still are on the chinese market. of course, the export import relationship between china in the united states, you know, remains peg that number 3 big, big american businesses still in china. and so finding a motor come of true diplomacy, even tre diplomacy is vital. but, you know,

one thing i would say to a policy make cuz the retreat at the end of last week, germans, americans, and brits. one scenario was, was mooted that really surprised me. and it was less the chinese mil attraction invasion of tie, one of the argument being would china want to attack the chinese and that whole sense of maybe we to coin a phrase, jumping the gun on all the the more immediate and intriguing and worrying scenario is if pretend is forced back in ukraine at the moment the ukrainians are making very little advance as far as we are aware. but whether ukraine is ready to break through and food shouldn't be on the back foot. would the chinese provide direct with a, treat the systems to rush or something they have still well clear up until now and what are they to do that the americans would be required as one would imagine to

impose sanctions? i'm fine. i'm and it's that sort of next step. try one still feels like your own awhile away or more in the distance, but this is right on our doors. and i think that was the substance of the closed door a conversation that will actually it's had with joe biden, a couple of months ago in the white house. and remember that was very much, you know, a close door ida, i potentially come to jesus moment where i very much assumed that the american president would have said something to that effect to the german chancellor. which is to say it is time for you to prepare your industry is um for what a sanctions regime. and richard may the point, it was an in, you know, comparative terms, easy to lean yourself off of recording one track pony uh, you know, in the energy sector in russia and it as hard as that was, you know, let's, let's be honest. but comparatively, to everything that we've set about where earth minerals, batteries that the kind of things that are vital to our everyday lives around the

world. that's gonna be a whole different game. but, and to sequence that correctly, you'd hope that some of the strategies that we're not seeing you mentioned the national security strategy of in german side is playing that out very directly. but that's not all the image you got when you studied what was going on. this past week in berlin, when the cabinet delegation from the chinese side met with their counterparts that hear from the german government. right. where you come to germany. now it seems to be a balancing act between implementing on economic dies. so why blink and tried to improve diplomatic ties? chinese female walked on boosting economic dies with germany. chancellor charles has emphasized that germany is not interested in economic di coupling from china. while visiting berlin, china, and have the reins in hand. no questions from journalists were allowed. premier lee and chancellor schultz express the importance of dialogue despite the differences. their focus was clearly on the economy to joey. so you think we

continue to strengthen our cooperation in science, technology, and trade junior? we will contribute to the stability of the world economy w. sholtes demanded fair competition from an aging and urged compliance with labor standards and human rights and supply chains. but such as i often say it and stressed it again today with my colleague, lee, we have no interest in economic decoupling from china. instead, germany wants to become more independent of its most important trading partner. but the strategy known as the risking was not high on the chancellor's agenda to the annoyance of his green party coalition partner, schultz managed to get the chinese state shipping company costco, to invest and a hamper container terminals that is in critical infrastructure in which direction is the new german china strategy headed richard,

the chinese firm, has refused to take questions during the press conference. did you have a days of all my time? remember we were there in the press conference, but more the visitor button. well, it wasn't just the chinese premier refused to take questions or shots did to that with no questions and but it's on the one side of the. yeah. and the fact that it was because of the chinese side. but the yeah. but, but the, the germans rolled off, rolled over on that demo. it was the same and it was the same when the venture moody was in berlin last year. and i think, yeah, it's a dangerous precedent was set during that mode you visit because of course, you know, that gives the chinese cover to say, well, you know, if you don't have to take questions with moody, why should we answer questions? um, so yeah, there was a certain amount of kind of quiet outrage among the journalists that was to see if the germans could try to summon up some unity to to, to make more of a stand the next time something like this happens. um, but yeah, it was a,

it was quite a notable a, a press conference party because of what they call this as of an encounter with the press have was no conference that happening of course, but how low key it was. it felt a little bit like a flash back. not just a moody, but also to the macro years when these government consultations were brought in. and just to take a moment to stress what they are. i mean, it's not just amazing between the chancellor and the counterpart. this is hold of government consultation. so the, the chinese came along with, with 9 ministers and, and heads of, of the various bureaucracies, the germans had 8 ministers and in addition to off shelves. so a wide ranging kind of engagement between the 2 governments and this is something that ongoing medical brought in during hard time. and that was a time with germany when full speed ahead on, on engagement with china and built up very significant economic ties, particularly between it's very biggest companies is call companies, it's industrial jobs and china and exposing them to the chinese market to

a great extent. so lot of this discussing now about this idea of taking the risk out to the relationship, the risk. and this is a question about the exposure of child. some japanese most powerful companies to that market talking will be this. going to on shaw seems to have a different definition of the this thing as compared to the rest of g. 7 is the rest, not united. it's not united. um, and the reason schultz has that divergence is as rich and size because germany is so exposed, it's a de risk is a, is a suitably vague to, to, to minimize the risk. one positive aspect that germany and other european countries are doing is looking for looking more assiduously at other parts of partners in asia. and the considerably closer ties we've, we've talked of, of course about india, but also japan is much more of an important plan that us the, the u. k. and japan a very much with australia,

which is a really big plan now in, in all of this much, much closer on a lot of these issues. so these are shifting sands, but germany has always jimmy's entire post unification, the post war post of it just when the economic miracle model is based on high end goods and, and exports. and germany is obviously the pos mazda of the hot. and it's a, it's on that, but this countries a post will wealth is built and that is why the risk is so much greater carpeting. you'd mentioned the meetings with feel and yet now both the dining stream. yeah, i'm the indian prime minister. i'll be meeting, see you in germany and us at a spectrum, you seem to be competing with each other to get dressed attention. so final thoughts, india or china, who's going to be the more important partner in asia in the future?

oh, i think it's all a question of time. i think very much the germans and the rest of the west would like to see india step up to the plate and push on some of the high tech pieces. i think the, the you india tgc, the tech and technology tech technology council is right in that damage. but for now, and i think i'm, it raises an important point. it's all about time. the risking takes time. and if a huge american defense manufacturer like raytheon says, we can't pull out of china quickly, that's just as true for all the german manufacturers. and now what we need to see is the german businesses need to learn from their s m, e counterparts. the other things that have made germany strong economically because they are very nimble players here, but the big ones, the time to prepare to get out. i think that's where the hard truth is going to meet rubber and road china. the was the 2nd largest economy, is becoming increasingly influential, economically autonomy and to the degree. the question that is defining the essentially is whether the risk can keep up with china as global missions. what do

you think about that? if you're watching us on youtube to let us know your thoughts, thanks a lot of time. goodbye the

. the conflict with jim sebastian america, the secretary of state. and today, clinton was finally engaging in a long delay that had to hold the slide in us china relations. the main sticking point is scro, taiwan. i guess the time when these foreign minister,

joseph the island, the sorrows, conflicts in 30 minutes, dw, was making the headlines and what's behind them. dw news that the show that hopefully issues shaping the continents slowly getting back to normal here. well, in the streets to give you in the for points on the inside corresponds is on the ground reporting from across the continent. all the french stuff from outside to u. d. w. news africa every friday on dw, how many portion of loads us are now in the world right now? climate change. the story. this is much less the way from just one week. how much was going to really get we still have time to work on doing

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the, this is the, the, the news line from berlin. india's prime minister hills, whose countries ties with the u. s. during the latter state. visit direct remotely addresses on joining the meeting of congress, plain of the partnership between deli in washington. we'll look at why the west is courts in the indian leader. also coming up the west coast garden.