is no goals. it's only just practice that the nation with a single class. 7 months before russia, tech ukraine, a film team, documents, daily life, the town. how are the people who are dealing with the growing tension? they change their world frame hold on. we are with you currently, no, enemy insight starts drawing on dw, the china has not changed its position neither on ukraine nor on time on. and yet china is trying to win friends can mutual trust to be established. again. china has so far, refused to criticize the shell for its water, new trade instruments, adamant on the thigh one issue as well. this hon shakes being like the just to,

to revive diplomacy. she didn't receive blinking false money, but the dies also fraud that re establishing stability looks fall fast. mean by in germany. johnson to all of charles repeated his opinions to try not to use its influence on russia to help in the war. on a bill that was blatantly ignored. so on to the point, we are asking china global ambition can to asked, keep on the hello and welcome to, to the point. i'm you shop. how do you sound? i'm here in berlin. it has been a week off visit us secretary of state anthony, blinking visited china was chinese premium. leach young, made his thoughts bought and trip to germany and from both of these visits could be called successful. and during this time,

that's absolutely wonderful. i guess with me today we have john guns now. he's an alta rog, costa, and has worked with various media houses and also writes for international publications on global affairs. next, on demand movie have dodge event is chief international editor. i've had to walk over that and last but not least, we have got stream to the ashcroft. she is a political scientist. she has worked with cnn us to be doing this and she continues to die for various international publications on spartan and security. bought a home back. i'm to you. well, thanks for joining richard. i mentioned to with it, but that's being told one as well. and then from into submitting some of these with it to the us. just a coincidence timing wise, or is it part of a bigger strategy? yeah, well, i mean, i think we, the timing is maybe with co, incidental. but obviously, you know, state visit to the united states states

a very long time to organize the ends turn you blink kids visit to china is something that has also been kind of long in the making. yeah. but uh, but i mean the bodies visit to the us is certainly seen as it is a very important visit. um, certainly a lot of, uh, a lot of symbolism in that the united states is really trying to reach out to india as what it sees as a potential partner in trying to manage the risk around around china in the, in the pacific region. it's so yeah, i mean, a week there's absolutely packed with diplomacy. i you almost a new way to begin on that but, but yeah, the moody trip sent me something we're going to be watching very closely here. catherine, just to be off to blinking. i visited beating biden dressler to she's in thing as a dictator. now, on the one hand, he's for walk in china, and on the other hand, he's welcoming money with open arms. what kind of message is he trying to send out? well, i think on the diplomacy piece, this is classic triangulation and diplomacy. i mean, you same issue or to attribute anything to the west that would look like

a coherent strategy. it would be that the west has tried very hard to focus on the biggest part of the bricks, which is to say, uh, illuminating russia from that equation which is, you know, beyond the pariah and the international system. but has tried very hard, at least to be reaching out to different parts of that constellation and my new way . my call is talking to brazil as president lula sort of, as we, as we speak. you know, we're thinking hardly, at least in the west, are attempting to about how we address the true issues of the global south. and it has been very specific, you know, it has an enormous economy to run and it has certain needs unless those needs are met. you know, this indian leadership has been very proud with test. and so that's what it's looking for from its various western interlocutors and the west has to lean in because of course, yes, the threats of china and russia are consistently of the offer. but to the bite and piece, we have to contextualize where joe biden was when he said what he said, i think for the wider diplomatic arena, probably not

a great move. and yet we have to see that he was at a campaign event. he was at a campaign event for his re election only a few hours effectively after it was revealed that china has built or is building a spy hub in cuba. and is potentially investing in military training of cuban military personnel. one might say in a quid pro quo, move of the americans leaning increasingly into their military aid for taiwan. and at the same time, congress announcing it wants to do more for taiwan. so in as much as there's the global international diplomatic picture, there's also domestic pressures on this president. i just relaxed and exactly just, you know, 1514 months ahead of a major us election. a lot of plans here, john. now the body language between blinking and changing things on the one hand unloading and biting on the other hand is also being discuss a lot, what do you make of it? at the heart of all of it. this is this whole question of pivot states. in other

words, there's obviously the western approach to russia as an, as an immediate acute threat, there is a longer time strategic piece, which is how do we deal with china, which we'll be discussing. but the side part, which is less discussed are all the states that are emerging and uh, absolutely important counter weights to the west on the one side to china on the other. these are states that are a love, see a lie, and in terms of it's not that they haven't decided all they during and look with the west or china. they are simply standing up and saying, you gotta talk to us, you have to engage us. and we will work with whoever we want to work with on the basis of our national interest, which is why is use a new introduction. the moody visit to the us was so important because the west has basically taken a view. the body is the bulwark against china. perhaps the most important one of

the most important, the west is now prepared to pretty much kind of blind eye to bodies, also retiree and tendencies within india. they've got to do the same with other one re elected in, in tacky and other states as well. that's a question of we're dealing with we being the western mindset is dealing with a world that is very different to the one that appeared to be the case only a few years ago. talking off mondays, visit this is movies 6 with the to the us and sticking over as prime minister in 2014. but his 1st stay it was a to the us. meanwhile, i know you a secretary of state has been to china since 2018 and in spite of both sides, claiming that they wanted a deal with friction, their strategic assessments of each other remain unchanged. chinese presidency receiving us secretary of state, blinking in badging. they are on speaking terms again and according to she's more

than that. so it seems like the 2 sides have also made progress and reached agreement on some specific issues. this is very good. more passenger flights between the us and china. more pieces for students and business people are reciprocal visit to washington by china is for administered small steps. but the large conflicts remain including commercial disputes with reciprocal sanctions, cheese proximity to or large pollutant badging, aggressive military threats to democratically rules, taiwan and chinese territorial claims in the south china sea. most recently, there were dangerous confrontations between chinese and us fighter jets there in may. and lincoln cannot report that the 2 militaries are speaking directly to each other again. at this moment, china does not agree to move forward with that. i think that's an issue that we

have to keep working on. china and america help 10 says the relationship between the super powers john tensions between china and us. now the relations are of the lowest drive now is enough being done to divided well as we were talking about bite and his remarks about and she being a dictator, you never quite know where the bite and means to say what he says or whether he speaks so i didn't know whether that was just the, the adrenalin of the campaign trial. but us and, and europe and being towing with how to do a deal with china. haven't worked out both within themselves and between themselves . how to do it. germany far more exposed to china or in terms of trade as, as all, most european countries. i'm in all the different strategic reviews, germany having just published it's uh, it's one of the

a few days ago and all the countries, the description of china ranges from an acute threat to a strategic rival, to a strategic compact as a, to a partner to all kinds of things, and the reason people don't know how to describe it is because they don't know how to deal with the china and, and the carrot on the stick. completely in contrast to russia. now of that western countries have pretty much removed their exposure to china's to rushes oil and gas . so there is no reason to needs to engage with russia. economically. rusher is a, is a spent force. it doesn't have a political model that anybody particularly wants to emulate. it has brute force, and it has a nuclear weapons. but beyond that, there was no russian appeal. china is completely different. the west is actually dependent on china as a natural resources and role materials supply chains off so interwoven that it's very difficult people are trying to on shorts,

initial differential to use the times to be less dependent on china. but look at germany's automotive industry. look at so many countries, economies. so how do you work out this, this, this threat versus opportunity question? that's what everybody is trying to do. but america's position on our lawn has not changed. and yet blinking found the need to say it again that we do not support independence by one. why was that required? well, the chinese position on taiwan towards the united states is essentially saying to them, you say that you have what, what the chinese cooler one china principal. i think americans called a one china policy, which is, which is saying that they recognize the people's republic of china as, as the, the legitimate government over china. that they do not recognize taiwanda as an independent states. um, but the american say was absolutely essential. is it that policy on this whole thing is that there must be no, a unilateral attempt to change the size as quote and particularly not by force. and,

and i think the reason why blink handles that we've had this from joe biden. also when he to approximate g 20 summit in bali when he has she made she jumping the last time and reiterating that position in public because the, the chinese is saying, well actually this is what you will stand simply mean, but your salamis slicing factor, providing weapons more and more weapons, the taiwanese and joe biden is also in various comments where there's also been interpretation about was the despair of the moment thing or was it a really intentional thing? has on various occasions, the last couple of years said that if the chinese were to attack taiwan, then the united states would definitely come to taiwan. a that goes beyond official us policy. and whenever he said that, then the, the administration is usually what the comment back within the space of $24.00 as well. so and the chinese where they look at this, they say your, your salamis slicing your your policy. you say that you believe in one, china,

but in reality, you're providing weapons who are providing more and more political support to taiwan. for instance, with the visits to of the speaker of the house, nancy pelosi to taiwan last year, which close, which was one of the the, you know, the things that i'm, the lease is extreme, the sour periods in us china relations. so that's why blinking is, is saying that when he's in bad shape and then how do you think us would react if china, what, what he was military action info on? well, i mean, hopefully with some way away from that. but of course, i think, but the united states in the world's being confronted with with rushes invasion of ukraine, is it? it's made even clear at the, something that's been sort of as a sort of a fee of rascal possibility for many years. because as the china is always said that it resolves the right to take taiwan by force. now, letting me preaching has gone ahead with a full scale invasion against ukraine. this just makes that that prospect seem older, more conceivable. um, there's

a debate though about whether china looking at what's happening and ukraine might be thinking, okay, yeah, they might be learning lessons about how to, how to do it, where they might be getting dissuaded from doing it because they see how difficult it is. um they see the, the huge ramp up in sanctions and the, and the, the relatives unity of the west in, in facing out to this. so thinking about what the consequences could be for the, for china, if they mounted some sort of invasion of that. i would also be confronted even more with i think, the, the, the, the grace of difficulties to take time one compared to invasion, you crime, given that time on this and i left. so there, um, so is whether it, whether it's more or less likely it is one question, but it's certainly confronted to everybody, not just americans, but also the, the, your opinions with the reality that well, this could happen one day and both of them by them and you, she's in thing, they will be face to face and d, 20 in september, and later and fx. do you think don't be able to take things forward?

well, i think that's certainly what the americans are hoping, and we heard in valley that what they wanted to prepare was a saul in diplomatic relations. and at least we have to get back to a motive come of study exchange. so the idea was that the preparation of the blinking visit, of course, which was supposed to happen in february, and you remember that the spied balloon incident interceded in that specific readout on both sides, made that situation very volatile, at least diplomatically. um, but you have point to preparation for this blinking visit. ultimately you had a visit by a chief bill burns. you had to conversations with uh, by jake sullivan. uh, the head of the national security committee is the and i see in washington with whose counterpart in geneva. uh, just hi and kind of set the tone and the americans have pegged an agenda item very clearly, which is that we come again to a point where we have military to military exchanges because the situation over the past few months and we heard it in the piece has become increasingly volatile. it's not just been sort of uh,

incursions in aerospace or where american jets and chinese jets has encountered one another. that's not just happened once, but a few times. the same thing is true. i serve in the maritime at rena, and the navy is coming to close to one another and not an ability to interface with one and one another very directly. so it's very clear that now this potentially even this visit, even despite the bite and comments, opens the doors for what is planned and already on the docket, which is that janet yellow and the head of the fed is supposed to have interact since with a chinese john kerry that had climate invoice, the united states is supposed to have very substantive talks with their, with his chinese counterpart. and then of course, you know, romando on the trade questions which are i think vital between the 2. and in as much as richard and john pointed out how dependent the europeans still are on the chinese market. of course, the export import relationship between china in the united states, you know, remains peg that number 3 big, big american businesses still in china. and so finding

a motor come of through diplomacy, even trade, diplomacy is vital. but you know, one thing i would say to a policy make cuz the retreat at the end of last week, germans, americans, and brits. one scenario was, was mooted that really surprised me. and it was less the chinese mil attraction invasion of tie, one of the argument being would china want to attack chinese. and that whole sense of maybe we took the phrase, jumping the gun on all the the more immediate and intriguing and worrying scenario is if pretend is forced back in ukraine at the moment the ukrainians are making very little advance as far as we are aware. but whether ukraine is ready to break through and putting the on the back foot, would the chinese provide direct the treat, the assistance to russia, something they have still well clear up until now,

and what are they to do that the americans would be required? one would imagine to impose sanctions. ok, fine, i'm and it's that sort of next step. try one still feels like you're on a while away or more in the distance, but this is right on are those that i think that was the substance of the closed or conversation that will actually it's had with joe biden, a couple months ago in the white house and you remember that was very much, you know, a closed door i'd, i potentially come to jesus moment and where i very much assumed that the american president would have said something to that effect to the german chancellor. which is to say it is time for you to prepare your industry is um for what a sanctions regime. and richard made the point, it was an in, you know, comparative terms, easy to lean yourself off of the quote and quote, one track pony uh, you know, in the energy sector in russia and it as hard as that was, you know, let's, let's be honest. but comparatively, to everything that we've set about, we're minerals, batteries,

that the kind of things that are vital to our everyday lives around the world. and that's gonna be a whole different game, but, and to sequence that correctly, you'd hope that some of the strategies that we're not seeing you mentioned the national security strategy of in german side is playing that out very directly. but that's not all the images you've got when you studied what was going on this past week in berlin, when the cabinet delegation from the chinese side met with their counterparts, that here from the german government, right? we come to germany now it seems to be a balancing act between diploma thing on economic ties. so why blink and try to improve diplomatic ties. tiny stream, you know, loved and boosting, economic dies with germany. joslet charles has emphasized that germany is not interested in economic di coupling from china. well, visiting berlin, china and have the reins in hand. no questions from journalists were allowed. premier lee and chancellor schultz stress the importance of dialogue

despite the differences. their focus was clearly on the economy generally. so do you think we continue to strengthen our cooperation in science, technology, and trade in yet we will contribute to the stability of the world economies. w. sholtes demanded fair competition from an aging and urged compliance with labor standards and human rights and supply chains. but so i guess i often say it and stressed again today with my colleague, lee, we have no interest in economics. decoupling from china. instead, germany wants to become more independent of its most important trading partner. but the strategy known as the risking was not high on the chancellor's agenda. to the annoyance of his green party coalition partner, schultz managed to get the chinese state shipping company costco, to invest and a hamper container terminal. that is in critical infrastructure in which direction

is the new german china strategy headed picture. the chinese firm has refused to take questions during the press conference. did you have a days of all my time? remember we were there in the press conference, but more the visitor button. well, it wasn't just the chinese permit. i refused to take questions or shots did to that with no questions. um and but it's on the one site that the yeah. and they said that it was because of the chinese side. but the yeah. but, but the, the germans rolled off, rolled over on that tomorrow. it's, it's the same, the more and it was the same when the ranger emoji was in berlin last year. and i think, yeah, it's a dangerous precedent was set during that mode you visit because of course, you know, that gives the chinese cover to say, well, you know, if you don't have to take questions with moody, why should we answer questions? um, so yeah, there was a certain amount of kind of quiet outrage among the journalists that was to see if the germans could try to summon up some unity to to um, to make more of

a stand next time. something like this happens. um, but yeah it was, it was quite a noticeable press conference probably because of what they call this as of an encounter with the press was no conference. it happening of course, but how low key it was. it felt a little bit like a flashback, not just to moody, but also to the macro use when these government consultations were brought in. and just to take a moment to stress what they are. i mean, it's not just amazing between the chancellor and the counter, but this is hold of government culture patients so that the chinese came along with, with 9 ministers and, and heads of, of the various bureaucracies, the germans had 8 ministers. and in addition to all our shelves, so a wide ranging kind of engagement between the 2 governors. and this is something that i'm glad medical brought in during hard time. and that was a time with the germany when full speed ahead on, on engagement with china. and built up very significant economic ties, particular between it's very biggest companies is call companies,

it's industrial jobs and china and exposing them to the chinese market to a great extent. so lot of this discussion now about this idea of taking the risk out to the relationship. the risk being this is a question about the exposure of child. some japanese, most powerful companies to that market talking will be this going to on shore seems to have a different definition of the this king has compared to the rest of g. 7 is the rest, not united, it's not united. and the reason schultz has that divergence is as rich and size because germany is so exposed it's the risk is a, is a search of the vague to, to, to minimize the risk. one positive aspect that germany and other european countries are doing is looking for looking more assiduously in other parts of partners in asia. and the considerably closer ties we've, we've talked of, of course about india, but also japan is much more of an important plan that us the,

the u. k. and japan very much with australia and which is a really big plan now in, in all of this much, much closer on a lot of these issues. so these all shifting sounds, but germany has always jimmy's entire post unification, the post war post of it just when the economic miracle model is based on high end goods and, and exports and gemini, is obviously the pos mazda of that. and it's a, it's on that, but this country's a post will wealth is built of that is why the risk is very much greater carpeting . you'd mentioned the meetings. what's the use and yet now bought the dining stream . yeah, i'm the indian prime minister. i've been waiting for you in germany and you said respectively, there seem to be competing with each other to get dressed attention. so final thoughts, india or china, who's going to be the more important fox in the, in asia,

in the future? oh, i think it's all a question of time. i think very much the germans and the rest of the west would like to see india step up to the plate and push on some of the high tech pieces. i think the, the you india t t c, the tech and technology tech technology council is right in that demo. but for now, and i think government raises an important point. it's all about time. the risking takes time. and if a huge american defense manufacturer like raytheon says, we can't pull out of china quickly, that's just as true for all the german manufacturers. and now what we need to see is the german businesses need to learn from their s m, e counterparts. the other things that have made germany strong economically because they are very nimble players here, but the big ones, the time to prepare to get out. i think that's where the hard truth is going to meet rubber and road china. the was 2nd largest economy, is becoming increasingly influential, economic any autonomy, and to apply that to the question that is defining the essentially is rather the

risk and keep up with china's global ambitions. what do you think about it? if you're watching awesome youtube to let us know your thoughts, thanks for watching. goodbye. the the, the

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