sondra inside corresponds is on the ground of reporting from across the continent of the trans stuff from outside to you. in 60 minutes, d, w. they want to know what makes the deadline to dustin, the gym, love and binding thing, step away from the spot. i'm not even allowed to go to my own car on everyone with later holes and every single day stuff. getting you ready to meet. the gentleman can join me. rachel stuart on dw me this week on the 77 percent street debate the question of eligibility. i think this country has never been a question because based up in the states, we're not supposed to exist 3. usually when it comes to the form you the 1st of every, like all that much. so you, so you do, what do you have is do you already sexualize?

yes. yes. we wait politics to leave that we, we used to be those dates where no one talks about, you know, these things. and i'm going to give you a, someone writes, when we think you will not know anything about us. hello and welcome back to the 77 percent street, the beach. and today we're going to be discussing the rights or lack there of the l g, b to q i community here in the country out of 64 countries that have outlawed homeless actuality of simplex x in the countries. nearly half of those are right here in africa. kennedy is of course, one of those nations. in spite of these legal barriers, the queer community is still trying to challenge the society to create more space, more access and more visibility. and our question today is, is it possible to co exist without discrimination? and i'd like to ask my 1st question to po, now the co founder of golf. again, let's be clinician of kendall, but also

a lawyer. so i think with both of those heads you can sort of paint a picture for us of what the situation is like for the community here and can. so the lo criminalize is from sexual us. i'm very generated and then below so criminalizes the ways in which that act is performed amongst different community. so same sex relationships and same 6 sexual us. but also events. trade couples must division oral affects. so if anything that's considered unnatural, going against the order of nature as it's written. so just to clarify, what is illegal, what is criminal? what can you go to do for what you can go to just voice for being phoned having the sexual act. what you can go to jail full is being perceived as having had both of so a lot of police man will address to detain you for being perceived eligibility, a or being perceived of having a very 186 orientation or gender identity expressing it in no way that is notated

or effectual, but that in the low he's not criminalized. the simple fact of being korea is, you're not going to go to do for that. but really, you know, we're speaking here in terms of the legal framework. all these big words, what does it actually mean to be clear in kenya? how does that life look like? first and foremost, it to me is being human. and i think the me, the most frustrating thing about the whole concept is that human beings are founded on different says we all different, i mean, look at to you to click it. to me, we don't give me specific examples. i came over to my family in 2017. coming out to my family, i got this on that. i wouldn't say so many prostate came out to my mother. my mother took me to all my siblings and then consequently, all of them this on me right. and it has been size v as now i do not have a family, but also that is what's called a pulls us to a lot of issues that are human being with dealing with it. because if you want me to do on you today, you lose diabetes. and why the general public likes to look at the clear people on 6 are legs the hall exits. so some of these people, these are people,

are going through some problems that everyone goes through when they go through this. that comes and says, let me hear from the people at the back. i want to introduce you for a 2nd. but does anybody want to share the experience of ever being an ally? being quin uh any specifics that they've had to encounter go through your looks like you want to say something. this is i'd say one of the biggest struggles ends up being the last of social connections, right. you grew up inside of communities, plenty of communities where that your family was that your church, whether that's your classmates or schoolmates and at some point as one becomes inside of their career journey, you end up losing a lot of these connections. um, but what i found to important truly in my life has been to seek and search for community and to build it. let me bring in cuz you can continue. he's a policy analyst with the leading pot to here in kenya. and so i think you can speak on the part to position, but also the question of when the law says that you know, such will accept criminalized and yet you don't get access because of how you

present which law then you're supposed to protect you against that discrimination, the beginning of the foundation of this whole discussion according to the president, we really don't, this country is based on the african values, norms, college i said, traditions. and of course, largely because a, our community or i was had to here in kenya has, you know, those a issues that they can see the, as that happens. but they have a d, the supreme court of kenya. was it they had to rectify this issue of both a and d. b q. yeah, just for the benefit of all of us who are not kenyon in 2019 the high courts of this country road to keep in place the law that now criminalize homosexuality. but in february of this year, the supreme court, which is a higher court, said that it is legal to prevent these communities from creating a foundations of societies a can fight for their rights to be starting to. yes. so what's our christian values

in models have a brought to the full is to open up a conversation on whether the legitimate sites of every canyon or every human being to be whatever they wish to be compromises for each of these country. and that they may be sure to attend because they've been to do such judge. let me introduce positive james sheets from level no charge. it's a very sort of, i would say liberal church here in kenya, very cheap, very young. and do you have a very interesting view point talk to me about this. so what i see in the bible is that what had design and context for sexuality. there was, uh, it will consist of my age of between of mine and the woman, and it's within the confines of my age. and the reasoning behind that is because these, these fruitfulness, it comes with the, these, there's no way that men and women a bill differentially. and so together we become better able to save of, of the society. and so i feel like the 1st one is that uh,

this is i've seen and seen just basically means that it's an abuse of what you are created to do. but then that doesn't give me the right to shine you. but of course not everybody in this country believes that 80 percent of the people in this country identify as christian. and most of them are very conservative going as far as thing. but not only is this a natural, some people calling for violent acts against the queer community. what do you say to them? it's had to regulate what people think. but if you call yourself extra tendon this time, that is the bible and that bible doesn't allow me to be violent against another person. thank you. i want to hear some reactions from the box. let me hear from one your response to that. the church will coming everybody. what's your view on that? i don't think it's wrong. uh because they also our children's video. so, but that's what he says. but at a property, when you have been way to come to touch it as a community. come uh, well today is to do the, the touch, the cost sons day. so this one,

some of the tests be presentable. they can, they do want to be, don't come, didn't find yourself. i've of them this community also got to us. so can you give me an example of what your opinion appropriate, inappropriate, uh, thinking uh, come in with you. uh, the color is that the rainbow? yes. oh no. uh no, it's like if i really want somebody to get this reaction, the pool, let me get through a reaction because uh you, you literally holding your needs and just we need someone to tell me what your thoughts are. certainly what your thoughts as well it's so frustrating when people start prescribing what you can and cannot do. mostly because all of us get to a stage where you start to expressing yourself based on who you live based on what you like with. isn't it fair to say that if you're coming to, you know, we're speaking here about church, but it could be a mosque, it could be a temple that you just a line with those values of the church, the temple, the more so i really like to give integrity to institutions when they offer me

integrity and the thing about queerness and the rainbow, whether you're ready to not for me is a non issue, but what i'm willing to hear is what feeds you. are you russian or c a or hatred for the rainbow itself? because that's just a cut, let's put together that up here. so not to read the and people have claimed the test, but so many of the collected sub claims the rainbow. yeah, let me, let me ask for a response festival. are you fearful and do you have hatred, or is it also just assumed that if you do not like these practices that you are hateful and fearful? no, i'm not hit with different. what is the emotion that you are feeling? i'm not against you. so you have sued the touch, it's about it the way you come with the president. you know what you up with the, you know what, you, what see the really is that the to get it. so what do you claim? they cut us and then you come that to that or the told you on the 1st they've been maybe you can call you it by a the height of maybe talk to you. maybe you can see what you,

what we talk and i'll be brief for you if it didn't, but talked about maybe say continuous and maybe the next side in the next session, you're just basically what. so what are you trying to say, okay? because jim is a pastor and she understands how the structures of the church work, you know, the very valid points that are being raised because while you are welcoming the career community and to the church, you also don't want to ostracize the very conservative people. but to what point is, what they've been asked you, we've decided least likely on what you said. so it would not go to the extent of think, or this is how you should dress. i don't want you to see catalogs. i don't want that, but that's only going to be meant that takes time. you from what just danny? to ease. it's not just about a bunch of thoughts, doors and once, but then i wouldn't expect that you've come one sunday. you will be sent to someone or now you're transformed, you've changed, nobody does. but what, what is transformation here is transformation to, for you to stop being gay, what, what is the outcome intended outcome. so in the past,

when people critical about this, that is to be more about conforming, you'll behavior to what we think is acceptable. yet the point of christianity is to transform people to be more like christ. and so that means that it's what about just more defined, you'll behavior to make me feel comfortable to make me feel better. it's about to your understanding for you are in good. and so that these thoughts that comes out over that. so my job is not to come and tell you, you need to be straight to breakfast and that's not the thing for sure. and not all such as, believe this. in fact, we had invited some representatives from a more conservative church, but unfortunately they weren't able to make it today. we have a come into that by us. hi, my name is alvina. gosh google. and i'm an atheist. so personally, i believe the problem started with religion because you were talking about our traditions. what do you know about the traditions as the lived in the street? all the born to, you know, one to minutes to get them is when we officers has a particular community we'd really living in to get together. this is that any loving thought that is just hatred because someone believes different than just

because people are speaking more about it doesn't mean it's happening more. it was happening before. we just didn't have the platform to discuss these things as much . well, most actually has always been that you've been in the animal kingdom, people to them them. alright. same on my question to you as a says, gentleman, are you talking about this with fellow men? we know that in this country it can become very vitriolic among men spaces. well, primarily what i would say is that a fiction between morales i love it because that means this uh which uh, conversation is shifting. we of liars, he's actually changing know shift from like one state to the next in the previous leaving. i think even way back in the day with our grandparents there was this thing of like even ladies and even where trousers now, when it comes to morality in that aspect, it's interesting, you keep using the word morality is almost actually to a moral issue. now that's what i wanted to get into, who defines what's moral within us, the site. now that's exactly the thing now, because literally, even when you say now being honest, let's break it down, being all to see when you can, can you, even when you go the majority of kenyans,

they define what's moral because they are past the, who's the most influential person even within their society, they say, oh we look up to you, this is what we defined as more. but this is what i mean. do you live by these more was realistically, how many people, how many pastors actually complaints you come to church every single sunday, but do live by these principles in which that we speak of right. you're behind the appropriate title to my dad is also a pastor. the other thing here is 5, the thing is being is living and even like when you actually know, hold up these moral principles so high and you start saying we are in the with, this is how you as a study should live. and then now you start, now that what happens is that people don't live that way. guess how they feel also sites em pushed away and they see you as an enemy and has would immediately when you start seeing the past they've been, i saw some of you guys starting and i brought in or is like, oh really? and then that i could see that, and i love the fact that we're having this discussion amongst us. and guess what? even a mazda, even us guys, the most guys, being honest,

it's almost all the is big. i want to lean into that to little bit. why do you think, 1st of all, what do you, what's the assessment? is it prevalent to not? i think it's only fair to ask for any homophobia. has always been prevalent, but it's the abuses busy in silence. and that's what clear people cry for all the time. that's now we're saying we have confidence enough to say we are here. we've been here since time immemorial. we've been bused and the charge on all systems in place that publishers homophobia found the power to abuse us by making us keep quiet and not say anything. it takes one person to begin until all of us, like you for it to become something, be great, but it's up to you. okay, that's when i would be good. so why would they be hating someone, or what would they want to be leaving the system? but them tells you keep quiet when you do happen so that we can be called to a boat stuff. put the boat, what stuff the let me come back to when do you? because i have a question for you when adventure, nobody died. edits, you know, but was a fashion designer who also identified a square. and he was murdered in

a most brutal way. and when the news came to light on to the level of homophobia was actually meet scary. is it too much to ask the government to intervene in those situations and said yes, we know what the law says, but surely this is also not acceptable is of course i do agree with you that to any human being created by god through never die. but the reason why the president would never support, you know, such a is because number one as the president of this country, he makes this issue on behalf of everyone. everyone the majority of kenyans understand and do support the president in that position. however, like we see it is now tiny note to be active using and so when you think about that or of a government, you know, these majorly, we white and politics in way and governance and policy will drive a,

have know that the, that claiming noises or supports and the be to will drive that leave that way. we used to leave those days where no one talks about you know, these things because the more it exemplified they might to shift from may. now identifying nice people who up on that to me to work on visual of making money for them. you know, the rest and know about can you ok, let's, let's give the people who are visit has a child. so yeah, thank you very much for highlighting the question of dona age, because it's important that we're clear, even the canyon government is reliant on during the 8. so every organization that exist and exist, as i mean, jewel or any institution that collaborates with other governments, you received funding. so there is no gay agenda that's funded by doing the funding . let's be clear on the 2nd thing. i think the question of homophobia is so important for us, because again, i want to use fia russian of fia and hatred. because when we say homeless libya,

we make it seem like it's such a fluffy, it's idea. no, people are afraid because we have not been they do get to the now for both the people. i wish i had the answer to that and i hope somebody says that the nation is, i'm an example it's. it's like straight up, even when it comes to guys is mostly more, more as, as guys usually when it comes to them before we unfortunately we like, oh, snap. you gave it so you so you do what do you do like what happens? do you like the wrong opening that you go inside your book? is that what you start to do that? that whole idea like this can actually happen. like, what are you trying to look for? like yes, yep. and then now that's what you'd be have because even though you start thinking that what can this person do to meet because you're also a guy and now you're in to me at the same time that way, that's an event. but then also in what we will come, some of this when you don't understand something, fear comes into play. jim also wants to give us a clue as to what else people are fearful. i feel like we judging,

would you be for the position that you stick in yet? i guess what he's trying to to, to speak about when did the president of the nation, you can't take subjective. would you call it a subject to position on something you present other people? and so some of the views he has and what he was talking about in terms of, of advocacy is that the majority to still have i see, and it's very had to mix. i'm going to change what the feel about, you know, lots of things that they need. one is really fight. i don't think they need one is responsible for this. it's just human beings in general. human beings in general are the problem that we always find a way to discriminate. again, is to chat about whether it's listen, listen, whether it's homophobia, it's 6 to being with the rest of the human beings, a human. so it's very hard to truly just lead my opinion on something, but when it comes when it comes to religion and this is what i'm speaking on in terms of the bible, it gives us a framework to treat people equally, whether we agree with them or not, it's kind of cool. that's on file for the. yeah,

let's, yeah, here let's here. i'm what i need to know to put us can, who's mortality for? because as far as i'm concerned, you're looking at a human being for example, a christian right. what is your belief? why should your belief be my point of action? you love good. why should they be having a good? you might not. as you don't like gaze, why should i like you wouldn't legging gaze? we have still been to, i'm saying this thing umbrella. concept of, you know, morality, model fabric and all that kind of stuff. where do i buy the meat as of the fabric on how can i live? i, it's the human thing. so this is the thing that it was saying. i think it's important that we educate ourselves because i want to contest the rarely done and tied to being the but let me tell anything because i totally can use the secular state. and yes, we have a religious president, but can you still remains a southern and secular state and all of us have the leeway to become whoever we

want to become a practice. we tethered religion that we went to practice up to including traditional practices that said, as eligible people, nobody wants to get married. nobody has us for the same 6 months and nobody has us to be a funding touch is what we're asking for is very plain, but they so much violence in the communities and that's violence must talk. so at the beginning of this debate, we us a very simple question. is it possible to coexist without discrimination? now that you all were giving eyes to jim when she walked in and maybe people in jim's touch, somebody give you all i is when you walk into her touch, how do we create more of these spaces within our communities? let me hear from you. i think it's possible because even before that we were saying women didn't have voting rights. evan, like someone brought top saying activism. why are we talking all about this things yet? when it comes to religion? if we can just see each other on the same level,

let me put it back to it because people have a bit of is it really disappeared? because when we remember that even at some point, whites and blacks couldn't quite exist. there's an important reason for active vision because it's because of this hatred. and so if we can just talk more about it and focus more on what we level both to, to the average human schools at the end of the day, we are humans and we have been doing nothing. then all of a sudden, some no more summer, most of the periods web to those votes come from. okay. so here's the activism and leveraging that you might need to be doing the activism. so most solutions can use . how do we move forward? i think the honestly, but it's very important. we have people, i hit this because the section lies 6 is hot everywhere. do you know the number of strip clubs and they will be do know who goes there? have you been the same people? usually people don't like the data right now because they're going to leave this right. but it becomes a problem when clear. people are happy to be expressive about, and he's not expressive about 2 years, shooting photographic videos and posting. we don't bring none of that. we just coming out to say, hi, my name is mary louise buell. i am

a lesbian. i have rights. i have a doctor who folded me in 2019 and i've talked about his story on social media. many times is keys are going to college, is a go for a pap smear. he asks me about my 6 what next week was best. what do you on? so when you go for anything about your sexual did have any way. right. and they tell me, mamma lives been on from the on now just will no longer pups, me. it was a muscle to me and me having to go through that experience. the end goal is give a someone writes when we feel so if you will not hear anything about us, all right, so to live on a c, okay, we need to wrap this up. we really need to wrap this up. so i only want solutions. now please, i believe that the most important thing is that representation and positive representation is key. because right now lots of kenyans see gave people as people who don't exist within their society or something that do not deserve to be talked about. but this image that is sold by the media, the church, and what are the other institution exist, is an image of people in the l g, b,

t q plus community. that's not even real. ok, so positive an on this representation. so most of the shows please for my solution is very simple. i think we all exist in a space of curiosity, rather than invest so much in having by us and judgment and expressing that. can you spend more time being curious? i want people to ask me questions about my life, but not in a sexualized way, you know, to, to, to, to a, because i want to bring the question of into sexuality like you raise it. we as getting into suffering from hunger, from land listeners from, for the and security to use from like political, corrupt, political lead does an all of us are impacted by that. the question of eligibility rights in this country has never been a question because based the penal code that states we're not supposed to exist freely, the supreme court has allowed us to associate so that be able to educate so that we're able to move the conversation away from where we are. so i think all of us

has a space where we can existing curious. yeah, i like that. thank you. good, jerry. this is my point that nobody should they either go to town or a, they got the violence and all those kinds of things because of what the identify us . however, we must also be careful as a country to protect the future generation. the people who come of tasks, we need to have of springs. we need to have a donation here, opening a whole new debate. uh, i mean, i mean, it's fine, but you know what? it's okay. i appreciate that. that's your view point and it's very welcoming this debate then we'd like to finish with was from a pastor. yeah. um we need to open up our doors and i don't have a claim on who, who good saved and who doesn't to alright. opened up more spaces for people to talk . you will stop looking at this. i've, i've, has,

i lives been real quick. you've got laser be so much more to watch. she's a past due and she has them be showing. she has needs. she has all these. yeah. thing i like that, so when you come to get i've been able to get a refund because at the end of it i can attend for some i believe so new and they can't force you to and you can't force, you'll be so me. but we need to be able to quite exist all right, fast. so as we conclude, mary louise, i asked of the question, is it possible to coexist without discrimination? very quickly, yes or no after this conversation? yes, it is possible that your task though, but it is possible. i like that. i like to think all my guess you have to do because having this conversation in a ruby is not easy, especially given the political climate. and i want to thank you of you was listening to the videos and doing you belong to the 77 percent to come to i just got on 65

last last those top 5 years 1115. we are here to help you make up your mind. we are here on please find your mind. so we all of the topics i'm much up to you. john campbell taught fixed a new culture and in 15 minutes, let's say together, because i talked about community life. but what is this to make sure that she was very close visa research now on top of the the the

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