starts with religion, i do think the vision is responsible for these lives is actually teens. 77. first. what secrets? why behind things were discovered new adventures and 360 degrees and explore fascinating world heritage sites dw world heritage 360 now this week on the 77 percent street debate the question of eligibility. i think this country has never been questioned because they put the states we're not supposed to exist. street usually when it comes to them before we unfortunately we like, oh so that you can so you so you do what do you have is do you already specialize? yes. yes. we wait and politics to leave, but we,

we used to be as piece where no one talks about, you know, these things. and i'm going to give you a, someone writes, when we think you will not, you know anything about us. hello and welcome back to the 77 percent sweet debates. today we're going to be discussing the rights or lack there of the eligibility to i community here in the country out of $64.00 countries that have outlawed homeless sexuality, of same sex acts in the countries. nearly half of those are rights yet in africa. kennedy is of course, one of those nations, in spite of the legal barriers, the queer community is still trying to challenge the society to create more space, more access and move visibility. and our question today is, is it possible to co exist without discrimination? and i'd like to ask my 1st question to po, now they are a co founder of gulf, the gay and lesbian coordination of kind of but also a lawyer. so i think we both those huts you can sort of paint up into for us of

what the situation is like for the community here and can. so the lo criminalizes some sexual us, i'm very generated and then below so criminalizes the ways in which that act is performed amongst different community. so same sex relationships and same fix, fix you up. but also within straight couples must division oral facts. so if anything that's conceded unnatural, going against the order of nature as it's retained. so just to clarify, what is illegal, what is criminal? what can you go to do for what you can go to just voice for being phoned having that sexual act. what you can go to jail for is being perceived as having had both of so a lot of policemen will rest to detain you for being perceived eligibility i o being perceived of having a very ating 6 orientation agenda. identity expressing it in no way that is notated or effectual, but that in below is not criminalized. the simple fact of being korea is not going

to go to do for that. but really, you know, we're speaking here in terms of the legal framework. all these big woods, what does it actually mean to be korea in kenya? how does that life look like? um, 1st and foremost, it to me is being human. and i think the me, the most frustrating thing about the whole concept is that human beings are founded on different as we all different. i mean, look at to you before that to me, we don't give me specific examples. i campbell, it to my probably in 2017. coming out to my family, i got this or, and then that wouldn't say somebody prostate came out to my mother, my mother. i wanted me to all my siblings and then consequently, all of them this on me, right. and it has been size v as now. i do not have a family, but also that is what caught up with us to a lot of issues that a human being was dealing with. because if you want me to do on you today, you lose diabetes. and why the general public likes to look at clear people and such as the whole existence of, of these people. these are people waiting for those sam,

the problems that everyone goes through when they go through this, that comes and says, let me hear from the people at the back. i want to introduce you for a 2nd. does anybody want to share the experience of ever being an ally, being queen, any specifics that they've had to encounter? go through your looks like you want to say something. i'd say one of the biggest struggles ends up being the last of social connections, right? you grew up inside of communities, plenty of communities where that's your family, whether that's your church, whether that's your classmates or schoolmates and at some point as one becomes inside of their career journey, you end up losing a lot of these connections. um, but what i found a port in training my life has been to seek and search for community and to build it. let me bring in so you can continue. he's a policy analyst with the leading party here in kenya. and so i think you can speak on the potty position, but also the question of when the law says that you know, such will exit criminalized and yet you don't get access because of how you present what which logan is supposed to protect you against that discrimination the

beginning of the foundation of this whole discussion according to the president who is the leader of this country, is based on the african values, norms kind of tested traditions. and of course, largely because a, our community or i was had to hear in kenya has, you know, those a issues that they can see that as that happens. but they have a d, the supreme court of kenya, was it? they had to rectify this issue, a boat to a n d be due to yeah, just for the benefits of, of us who are not canyon in 2019 the high cost of this country road to keep in place the law that now criminalizes homosexuality. but in february of this year, the supreme court, which is a higher court, said that it is illegal to prevent these communities from creating a foundations that society is a can fight for their rights. is what you're referring to. yes. so what our christian, the values in models have a broad to default, is to open up

a conversation on whether the legitimate sites of every canyon or every human being to be whatever they wish to be. compromises they for each of these country. and they didn't, they, they shouldn't attend because they've introduced a charge. let me introduce a pasta, james sheets from mobile, no charge. it's a very sort of, i would say liberal church here in kenya, very cheap, very young. and you have a very interesting view point talk to me about this. so what i see in the bible is that what had design and context for 6, right? there was, uh, it will conceptual. my age is between a money and a woman. and it's within the confines of my age and the reasoning behind that is because these, these fruitfulness, it comes with beads. these is that way that men and women a bid defensively. and so together we become better able to save of as a society. and so i feel like their position is that i, this is, i've seen and seen just basically means that it's an abuse of what you are created

to do. but then that doesn't give me the right to shine you. but of course not everybody in this country believes that 80 percent of the people in this country identify as christian. and most of them are very conservative. going as far as being the not only is this a natural, some people calling for violence against the queer community. what do you say to them? it's had to regulate what people think. but if you call yourself extra tendon this time, that is the bible and that bible doesn't allow me to be violent against another person. thank you. i want to hear some reactions from the back. let me hear from one your response to that. the church will coming everybody. what's your view on that? i don't think it's wrong. uh, because the also our children's video. so, but that's what he says. but at a property, when you have been way to come to, to us as a community. come uh, well today is to do the, the touch, the customs, the traditions of the tests be presentable. they can be want to be,

i don't, i didn't find you a sofa and this community also conducts us. so can you give me an example of what's repeating, appropriate, inappropriate, uh, thinking uh, come in with you uh, the colors that detach the rainbow. yes. oh no. uh oh, no. it's like if i really want somebody to get this reaction, the pool, let me get the reaction because uh you, you know, what are you holding your needs in this? we need someone tell me what your thoughts are. certainly what your thoughts are and sort of so frustrating when people start prescribing what you can and cannot do . mostly because all of us get to a stage where you start to expressing yourself based on who you live based on what you like with. isn't it fair to say that if you're coming to, you know, we're speaking here about church, but it could be a mosque, it could be a temple that you just aligned with those values of the church, the temple, the more so i really like to give integrity to institutions when they also me integrity and the thing about quin this on the rainbow,

whether you're ready to not for me is a non issue, but what i'm willing to hear is what feeds you or your rational caea or hatred for the rainbow itself because that's just a cut, let's put together that up here. so not directly and people have claimed the test, but so many of the collected sub claims the rainbow. yeah, let me, let me ask for a response. first of all, i you fearful and do you have hatred, or is it also just assumed that if you do not like these practices that you hateful and fearful? no, i'm not hit with different. what is the emotion, the to a feeling? i'm not against you. as you have said, the touch, it's about it. the way you come with the raised it. you know what you up, what it, you know, what you, what say. there it is that to, to get it. so what do you claim they caught us and then you go that route on that on the taiser on the 1st day, but maybe you can call us back uh hi to maybe talk to you. maybe you can see what, what are we talking uh we the physical unit,

everything by talked about maybe say continuous and maybe the next id, the next session. you're just basically what? so what i trying to say, okay, because jim is a pastor and she understands how the structures of the church work, you know, the very valid points that are being raised because while you are welcoming the career community to the church, you also don't want to, ostracize the very conservative people, but to what point is what they're being asked. yeah, we, we disagree slightly on what you said, so would not go to the extent of saying, oh, this is how you should dress. i don't wanted to see, kyla, i don't want that, but that's only going to be mean that takes are you from what just danny? to easy to know just about a bunch of thoughts, doors and once, but then i wouldn't expect that you've come one sunday. you'll be sent for someone or now you're transformed, you've changed, nobody does. but what, what is transformation here is transformation to, for you to stop being gay, what, what is the outcome intended outcome. so in the past being hypocritical about this, that it's being more about conforming your behavior to what we think is acceptable

. yet the point of christianity is to transform people to be more like christ. and so that means that it's what about just more defined, you'll behavior to make me feel comfortable to make me feel better. it's about to your understanding of who you are in good. and so that these folks that comes out over that. so my job is not to come and tell you, you need to be straight to breakfast and that's not the thing for sure. and not all such as, believe this. in fact, we had invited some representatives from a more conservative church, but unfortunately they weren't able to make it. they have a comment on that by us. hi, my name is alva negotiable, and i'm an atheist. so personally, i believe the problem started with religion because you were talking about our traditions. what do you know about what traditions our ancestors lived in the speed of the book to, you know, one to minutes to get them is when we ostracize that particular community. we really living into get together this is that any loving thought that is just hatred because someone believes different than just because people are speaking more about it doesn't mean it's happening more. it was happening before. we just didn't have

the platform to discuss these things as much, almost actually has always been that even in the animal kingdom, people to them them. alright. same on my question to you as a says, gentleman, are you talking about this with fellow men? we know that in this country it can become very vitriolic among men spaces. well, primarily what i would say is that uh, fits in between morales. i love it because that means this uh which uh, conversation is shifting. we of liars, he's actually changing notes shift from like one state to the next in the previous leave it i think even way back in the day with our grandparents there was this thing of like even ladies in order to wear trousers. now, when it comes to morality in that aspect, it's interesting, you keep using the word, morality is almost actuality, a moral issue. now that's what i wanted to get into. who defines what's more, we didn't know society. now, that's exactly the thing now. because literally, even when you say now being honest, let's break it down, being honestly when you and can you even when you go to the majority of canyons they define what's moral. because the a pastor who is the most influential person needed within their society, they say,

oh, we look up to you, this is what we defined as moral. but, and this is what i mean. do you live by these more was realistically, how many people, how many pastors actually complaints you come to church every single sunday, but do live by these principles in which that we speak of right. you're behind the appropriate title to my dad is also a pastor. the other thing here is by the senior, but the thing is living and even like when you actually know, hold up these moral principles so high and you start saying we are in the with, this is how you as a side you should live. and then now you start, now that what happens is that people don't live that way. guess how they feel also sites em pushed away and they see you as an enemy and has would immediately when you start seeing the past they've been, i saw some of you guys starting and i brought in or is like, oh really? and then that i could see that, and i love the fact that we're having this discussion amongst us. and guess what? even a mazda, even us guys, the most guys, being honest homophobia, is the, i want to name into that to little bit. why do you think, 1st of all, what do you,

what's the assessment? is it prevalent to not? i think it's only fair to ask for any homophobia. has always been prevalent, but you see abuses busy in silence. and that's what clear people cry for all the time. that's now we're saying we have confidence enough to say we are here. we've been here since time immemorial. we've been bused and the charge on all systems in place. but the publishers homophobia founded the power to abuse us by making us keep quiet. and they'll say anything, it takes one person to be killed until all of us acute for it to become something be great, but it's up to you. okay, that's when i would be killed. so why would they be hating someone, or what would they want to believe in the system? but them tells you keep quiet when you do happen so that we can be called to a boat stuff. could you on the boat? what stuff the. ringback let me come back to when do you? because i have a question for you when adventure, nobody died additional but was a fashion designer who also identified a square and he was murdered in a most brutal way. and when the news came to light on to the level of homophobia

was actually meet. scary. is it too much to ask the government to intervene in those situations? and so yes, we know what the loss is, but surely this is also not acceptable is of course i do agree with you that to any human being created by god through never die. but the reason why the president would never support, you know, such a is because number one as the president of this country, he makes this issue on behalf of everyone. everyone the majority of kenyans understand and do support the president in that position. however, like we see it is now timing note to be active using and so when you think about that or of a government, you know, these may generally we wait in politics in way and governance and policy will drive a have know that the, that could be noisy so.