is taking all the powers that be the risk, everything john needs activists, journalists, and politicians living in exile the way to which on the list for their mission, what drives them. we need to know what is happening that our series guardians, of truth watch now on youtube. d. w documentary, how roll did you get any per goshen really go in his wagner uprising? has russia seemed the last of him, but it looks like, regardless both skills and his people are still important for which in addition, several heiress, for instance, in alpharetta. my guess this week on complex own is russian investigative journalist and security services expert andrea, so that tough is added to our website tracks. the russian intelligent services will

put in purch the system, which is a really good ad conduct to represses especially against his own people. who have several s as the people in general that have ministers sends out. governance sends out how long can put and hold on to power. andrea, so that's how welcome to conflicts down. thank you for having me. you are in contact with whistle blowers in the russian security services. why did per goes and really stop his march toward moscow while because it was never about trying to take power and to take moscow, it was about read negotiator in his deal with foods and as a minister of defense. and the one he understood that he miscalculate that he wanted to still to get some figure out the best situation. so his son just columns to must scout, but it was most of that to apply for a time when find that he got what you wanted or this what he could get out of the situation stuff. nevertheless,

he got quite far and it's being called the most dramatic challenge to put into the authorities since he came to power 23 years ago is promotion. still a threat to putting things the biggest uh, the biggest uh, fraud is not because it's a said bob did reaction that was an army and i was the russian security services. everybody understood that it was on while he might be extremely adventurous. yes, he has a lot of people on the, he's come on several files and people bob's xerox. and that was the army is what matters now and give us the fact that nobody wanted to stop recording and the security services that people have a put in charge of providing the political stability or follow up, which is great. jim did absolutely nothing as a f, as b uh, local office central stuff on the on does barty k themselves and the headquarters that signed a very warning signal to puts an end to moscow bad. it's not all okay. and these people who are in charge of well protected him actually doing nothing. nevertheless,

the kremlin has been trying to dismiss the uprising, calling it minor trouble. in contrast, you have the use top people, not warning, but prudent, has lost the monopoly of force and an unstable rush. it becomes a risk. how serious do you see the uprising and how fragile is the russian state? again, i think the problem is not the only way for goes on hey, is uh, an extremely interesting color to bob's his, uh, the options are limits. he doesn't have any uh, law public support provided by other members selves. there are some that leads for instance, and ottoman didn't support hamilton. they bought several things to be happened during visit prize. and reg assumed a warning, for instance, fizz um now infamous of asia aware a big was listed in together, verify depth to me to self defense. yes. cor, of the shows that,

that you had of the rough military intelligence alex save and a shaving loft. a, bob's eyes y'all's taking all gates and actually show you're going to rush them off . well, that's boss pump. so it's a shocking for me and i need it to contact with my source. i sense of russian security to services and special forces and ask them what do they think? and they bought the idea of that you have to tell us, had those, there are some boots for intelligence. uh, basically saying, while you can have them, if you want. uh and my people said, wow, actually i like say it was right, and i think that was even more worth some 4 points. and because in this case, you have the most capable of madison's russian middle tray and russian security services, publicly questionnaire uh, submitted tray, i dare say. given all of that, what you've just highlighted there. how much support do you think from corrosion might have had covertly from inside of the security service?

it is the military, the leads because i mean, it appeared that his human, his wagner mercenaries that they meant no resistance. yes, absolutely. the once again, i just wanted to stress as a f, as be decided to absolutely nothing. and they had and they control online. some like, why did they fail to stop? you have any promotion? is what wagner uprising earlier? why was the biggest uh, i think the answer is that separate goes on is, is it kind of, maverick, he's not part of the system. so for the system, for the russian system of intelligent security, 10 minutes restructure, as it's where the difficult to understand his place and position, everybody understands that it's all about putting precaution personal connection. and the problem is, nobody knows, for instance, uh, what is this connect soon as we speak. so maybe it's really bad, maybe is getting better, maybe it's getting worse. so we don't now the general social, they didn't know at the moment, those uprising what might be that connection. and they just decided to wait and see

. you highlighted one particular point in your previous writing, um the fact that the security service in particular, in moscow, they called on wagner fighters to go and arrest your guinea per goes in their own leader. and this is especially extraordinary because the speeds, military counter intelligence, operatives are within wagner's ranks. how are you seeing this? because this is their job, isn't it isn't, isn't it a huge break and loyalty to the kremlin? how would this be being viewed right now by putting himself as a really good question because of this office and for people like us from outside their selves. the system always acts as a be off cost. it looks like a complete file. these people that put that to walk into cumberland involved the problems which might come up out of, of the walk in a group as that was a primary drop. right? uh, and as i says be, is not only about to impressions that's about prevention. this kind of thing stuff

happened and so they felt that there's up so it's a clear about the same times. a problem this puts in is that he is to some extent parts of the system. just remember that he is a trained kids, you'd be office and in the similar circumstances. so 2 years ago and that's and that's 1. 1 is it cage, it'd be in some wild people as a parent girl wanted to stage included, taught, and toppled garbage shelf. most of the ranks are inside of the kitchen being decided to do exactly the same to wait and see. pushing did absolute in last thing . his friends, people, he now respects and who on now is a i'll on, is a key positions and as a russian security services the all the, the same be absolutely nothing, nothing and not send that to one. so you'll have this strange, emotional thing, shape and all false statement that actually when something really big is happening

is not up. there's a security services to decide when to opt, which is up, so that uh, concept protective uh, buttoned up as an, as they have it up. senior pentagon officials have highlighted that the uprising highlights poor coordination between the military and other security services. and can you give us a window into how deep the connections are, for example, between the military rushes security services and wagner in particular. well, 1st of all, i'm not completely agree with this assessment. just remember that as a paid time off is uprisings, russian army kept fighting that ukraine. young comprehensive veteran has no collapse, all falls, the russian forces as a bottle filled. so the only thing they failed to face and the option to deal with was this particular mutant in offering garzon. and here you have all the problems. belarus has lucas jenko said that he ultimately broke, or the deal that sa precaution has wagner forces

a band and their march toward moscow. is lucas shank over 2000000 humiliating fulton. or did he save him? well, i think, oh, the whole, think about bello sound? look, i sent a cup of dissipation, of cause made, puts and look, it's to me a week. just remember that for many, many years, which it was familiar with things that idea and met can ed sacrifice the idea of national southern see that was such a big thing that you can ball just to find all kinds of repressions if you want to . while to promote this thing, and that is why we got those refreshments in our country because it is a wake of national, southern, and mile ones. you guys are real problem. pushing got the kids a real problem. while he left his mind to pop that, alexander walker, son gotta go fix his internal program. so it does with look for police in really good lucas franko also saying that promotion is now in bella roost. although there's been no independent confirmation. he also hasn't been heard for it from in

more than a week. what do you think is happening to per goshen is the soul lives well as difficult to say, but i think he is still very much alive. uh, 1st of all what as well as his grades, the situation is really difficult to understand what is going on. spots better of several interesting science stuff. default the whole think about criminal charges. so it's changing, but as far as i guess, and that started as far as that, everybody got it as a criminal charges finally dropped, which is a big thing because one puts in and to come in, wants to expel somebody for real. well, you have the criminal charges, it gets to this person, for instance, in my case, i'm a wanted man in russia and i have criminal charges against me. so if i ever get back to the county, i am facing up to 10 years in prison, and that is a guarantee i was never getting back. but footprint gossen bed decided to make an exception, so that has no criminal charges. so legally speaking, but as nothing to prevent him from getting back to the same pitch as vogue to

moscow to that now it's just safe at this pontiff, his business and pot for goes. you know, i mean he's, he's been promised this immunity. we have to say um, but he got richard who was as close ties to food now, put in his actually mentioned that the finances of precautions lucrative catering firm will be investigated. how do you see that? is this a signal that he could actually be prosecuted for financial crimes or, you know, was put in just trying to take them down a notch. i think it's about some parts of precautions, business, business and bar. because of course, there's some companies that are assigned, they've been that for years, but they had no chance. now they got this chance. so that trying to win this. so contracts provided by the government times administer of defense. mothers looks like the gardens ball skills and his people still important for put an address in several areas, for instance, in africa. and it looks like uh you come and doesn't want to completely dis,

bond walk now and walk that activation say in the middle san africa, precaution had been railing against the top military brass for months. ultimately, he said that the kremlin state of reasoning behind the war in ukraine was false. wanting to prudence, allow the threat posed by promotion to fester for so long. well, pushing on the stands that is very clear that even in last of unpopular wars could produce very popular generals. and these generals, at some moment my become a political frat. that happens many times in russian history. pushing understands that he understands that he cannot let that go. so he wanted to have some accounts of balance to that, some sort of maverick from my expose of programs in submitted tray and to keep mid trade generals off balance. that's exactly what was the role of precaution for all

of these months. let's talk about the wagner miller scenary griffin. what happens to them next? they've been thrown into disarray. the fight for control is said to have just begun . lucas tango has invited mercenaries to relocate to in a band into military base in the country. there are some reports of new satellite images appearing to show tents being set up in belarus. to that effect is that their best offer to go to bella roost and are they likely to take it? well, i think that that some moment which in just decided to relocate, walk in or to say if his public image of someone who is still on uh in control of the situation and because it was stuck in relation to have well by the soldiers motion of the, they're all, it's in russia, so he decided to really catch him, him to the lowest cost. i mean, wagner has no other customers by the russian stage. billow is very much penetrated by uh, by the russians. uh so it's not like you was expelled to some independent country

and out a free trump law scott, that's not true. the us says that right now, they're continuing to see some elements of the wagner group in russian occupied territory. and ukraine. ukrainian intelligence says that wagner will not fight in ukraine any more. do you think that wagner in ukraine will go willingly, and it's about an interesting question that we have some reports written to actually today that so i'll wagner about officers. they use it as the statements that they stopped recruiting people uh right now for fonts and then ukraine bots. um the language should be used as them because as like we have stuff in for now. so maybe the outpatient, for some of the office over to full, may be able to get be given, then you name. so, but i think somebody minutes of this group, the fonts and as they did before, let's talk a little bit more about how russians are viewing all of this ukranian presidents. a landscape says that moscow has been suffering full scale weakness. he calls it for

goes and has apparently tapped into the view that putting is a, is a corrupt system where the ruling, the lead had been emerging themselves and are more interested in pleasing, put, and then doing what is right for national interest, the ordinary people that that's the message which seems to have resonated how high is the dissatisfaction with putin and food newsome. uh well, uh, in the middle of the tray. uh, the rear is a clear uh, spinning size russian generals as old as on not extremely competent. and it's a, it's a very interesting in our wonderful situation because it is right now that the russian army is the case of this new found confidence in themselves. because actually is, are you crazy on the offensive physics team? this law. uh that is the perception of the russian dollar is not my perception, but that's the holiday season situation. they base fear that it could be a really big no of a c. it's not that big and not back horrible. uh,

so that gets into this uh sun sofa. uh that sound not actually bad, bad. uh, at the same time, but keep layman's age and you're all saying that that's why they supported to some extent of silence. they may be p gordon's criticism because they share the same feeling, but it does move that, that ready to just don't think about it. so they still got approval and the sitting side, so we need to find visible, find a better long time. is that, but here's how the, the head of the c, i a, is framing the situation. he says that disaffection with the world will continue to know a way at the russian leadership. and that it creates a once in a generation opportunity for the c. i a to recruit spies in russia. you are very familiar with the security services. do you think that the c, i will find fertile ground for recruitment as well? i think rather be, as you know, there's a lot of wishful thinking. yeah. we're trying to audit to find every sign of,

of descent as a, as a signal that the system will inevitably collapse. and i know as a, in the model for several months, i would be extremely, i would be more cautious to be honest. it's not likely that lots of people accepted xyzzy. i was wor, includes as a russian the, let's put you on this. what are you good at conducting repressions, especially against his own people. we have several s as the people in general that have ministers sends out government to send jail. so it is a big thing for the russian society yet. and lots of people themselves found the stands i. that's actually, that is no way for them, but to stay and to stay loyal to food stamps. so i would, i would say by that point it's might end up as soon it's a, uh, but i would be cautious also the program is bad to say which with the best people find that it was a chance for defections. and right now for the rest of the lives, because the folder restrictions saw for travel. i'm in the truck with easy to to

make it through europe. all it isn't that the stays, the chances that the same people as a russian, that is what saying ok, maybe now i start spine causes are many concerns that will give but give me a chance to, to move on to alternative ends and that to stays. that quite same quote. and um, since the uprising he has been seeming to be bent on projecting normalcy and stability, we've seen him ramping on public appearances. and the week after the uprising, he gave a number of national addresses for training the rebellion as a heroic episode. he travelled to the southern region of dag of san, where he sipped local cognac, he spoke about growing regional tourism. he even attended a technology fair in moscow. what are russians make of that? or are they buying it? well, no, not all of them off gone. so especially in big stages, bugs and proven, says you have lots of people who are still very supportive of pollution and they accept as a russian propaganda adoption of the of. and so that puts in my asset to avoid blog

shit on the assignment stuff you did actually have that. it was not real big launched it. uh, except for this unfortunate pilots and it is appropriate for the middle of tray. not for that population provision. i mean, his rants, they really offer this alternative to the war propaganda. for many russians in unvarnished glimpse from the front lines you highlighted the useless and unjustified losses. can russians really go back to regularly scheduled programming? well, that's a good question, but i think what? because we wanted to do, he wanted to become some sort of, uh, uh, you will press it for, says russian society, i'll be of as a license to uh, tags, the russian, it leads to mobilize the rest of society, which and does one side. he still thinks that it's possible to win the visible default, the total mobilization, but we don't know what might happen if say you agree on the offensive goes with the

success a fall. we just don't know that might change the situation. and if that changes, they might be new space and your own property goes on, then people are, can, let's talk about prudent for us to shore up his power. first of all is a crack down under way. as that is one thing which is clear. uh, also it gives the services as army as a national gout. they loan. is it less than that? why do you have a program? is it oh no. such a circle of pollution? is it better not to interfere? and i think it is a very bad signal for points and because, well, what if tomorrow some of the guys say could do it? of all someone, all is the rest of the security council. now come opposite the russian television and say, wow, i'll wasn't provides you major, go to hell, and we need to replace, give someone that would be a huge confusion by this cliff right now. you. if you look at the overall situation,

though, russia's most senior generals, they, they've dropped out of view since the uprising i'm thinking about general harass him off he's report the not appeared in public use, of course, in charge of the war effort and ukraine. the kremlin has also been deflecting questions about the whereabouts of general sort of the can, who is seen as aligned with precaution and believe to be detained. what do you think is happening to them? a while it's really difficult to understand. i've been checking the information about sort of a can for all these days. it looks like sort of forced by to was sent to prison. we kind of confirmed them, but he said it's, it was about he was it list, interrogate as, and it's quite interesting vibes we uh, hit and visit rumors. it bows and middle trojan are also about not about security services, which is a very interesting thing. while you have these people, i'm is f as b as a national guard, all of the security services pulled in charge of putting us personal security and

political stability. it is yet all of the questions that come to has. it's all about some of the trick. how much impact do you think these events of the past weeks are going to have on the war and ukraine? um, it's a good question because the one hand we see is that walk in our didn't participate directly, at least in big numbers and, and trying to selves you praying and contra offensive. it is a jump, was a regular russian army. while at the same time was there is still a very capable force and they have his reputation ends. there are some miller trait, yet there is new confusion. now because of the, obviously i'm using, it stays by longer because of this policy who upheld full opposite to nothing. well, which is of course, enough of as was about to be spiel of his pilots were killed because of a on another the russian heroes. but it was the middle tri are here and is that, that it would be no justice for the fall of his policy invest,

samuel is nobody would be prosecute that for killing this, this policy. and that credit and you confusion, it means that it has a re, regular army still finds in the bottle failed. you have a non both product, meet your competitors as an ottoman now is looking at risk product, mutual competitors with some suspicion because these guys already approved frederick and kill russian soldiers and they can get away the fed. so these condos confusing and long dollar my sites and situations about the felt the ukrainian counter offensive has, has not yet achieved significant success, according to nato's top commander in europe. do you think that now there is more pressure on putting to end the war? no, i don't think so. i think what, pushing on the stance is, uh uh very it was such a big investment in inside. yeah. of your brand counter offensive. uh, wallace was a big thing for uh, for the brand new and governments for is that you bring and they just ship. it was a big thing from nature for the west. in russia. it was played as

a sign that the russian army, well, uh, behave the and uh, actually it was not extremely uh, great uh, is the beginning of the war, but vegas and batch are there is this, uh, there is a strange feeling now, especially because it's all about history and the 2nd, baltimore, and all of that. so there is these ideas shaded by man, yet by the russian army over his dogs of war. uh, in a very bad shape, bought a guest and best uh on the way and put you on this, trying to capitalize on vis spelling. i'd like to ask you one last question about the uprising. the wagner uprising cause many are concerns that a food does fall. the concern is that a replacement leader could be worse crumbling, critical krakowski said the following week, glimpse how the regimes inevitable fall is likely to come about. and the forces that we'll seek to take over so called national patriots, led by another fog. if you look at the big picture,

do you think that russia is ultimately doomed to have one fog replaced by another? after putting a while, our thoughts into it might happen because as a more visual goes, is it more as russians aside is, gets and used of as well. and now the, i guess it is a motional argument and save opposite will because there's so many casualties. there's so many people killed and even the people who felt well confused about the beginning of the war. now they have this fit in growl and my villas someone gets killed by these ukrainian. so why should i feel store it and bought some more. so and some, and some way the support for that was guessing all it's not big about it's, it's most stable and it means that the whole system of the society projection itself does idea that while it's going to be with a long war. and in the long war you get people like general sand as why, while using the very top language

a more and more and more popular pop law. and at some moment they might get some miles from position in depaula. yeah, that's true. and how long do you think putting has well, i think is we had spoken about 2 years under so that definitely have to leave it there. thank you so much for joining us on conflicts on or thank you. the

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know, when i me inside start to joint on dw the this is dw news live from berlin back. no later you have getting per goshen is in russia. that is what the bellows to you later. alexandra lucas shank goes, says despite previously claiming that he had gone to bella ruth, as part of the deal to add wagner's challenge to moscow for goshen, has not made a public appearance since the aborted knew me. we were.