they're aiming for everyone to achieve rethinking in society. some stuff is given. yeah, i'm not allowed to give in. we have to divide this. i do the best of the cast for the, for the to, to off all the chief of a film about commitment and hope about visions and the people behind the verb and catastrophe. climate change starts july 13th on dw. how role did you have any per goshen really go in his wagner uprising has russia seemed the last of him, but it looks like regardless both skills and his people are still important for which in addition in several areas, for instance, enough for that my guess this week on complex own is russian investigative journalist and security services expert. andre still got tough is added to our

website tracks. the russian intelligence services will put in perch the system, which is a really good ad conduct to repressions, especially against his own people who have several s as the people in general that have ministers sends out. governance sends out how long can put and hold on to power 100. so that's how welcome to conflicts down. thank you for having me. you are in contact with whistle blowers in the russian security services. why did per goes on the one he understood that he miscalculate that he wanted to still to get some figure out the best situation. so his son just columns to most scout, but it was mostly to apply for a time when find that he got what you wanted or this what he could get out of the situation. his stuff. nevertheless, he got quite far and it's being called the most dramatic challenge to put into the authorities since he came to power 23 years ago. is promotions still a threat to putting things? the biggest, uh, the biggest pro, a friday's not goes into said bob,

xerox. and that was an army and was the russian security services. everybody understood that it was on, while he might be extremely adventurous. yes, he has a lot of people on the, his come on several files and people bobs, xerox, and that was the army is what matters now and give us the fact that nobody wanted to stop recording and the security services that people have put in charge of providing the political stability for which is fred gym did absolutely nothing as a f, as b uh, local office, central stuff on the on does body candidates themselves. and that headquarters does that sound, a very warding signal to puts an end to moscow bad. it's not all okay and these people who are in charge of well protected him actually doing nothing. nevertheless, the kremlin has been trying to dismiss the uprising, calling it minor trouble. in contrast, you have the use top people, not warning,

but prudent, has lost the monopoly of force and an unstable rush. it becomes a risk. how serious do you see the uprising and how fragile is the russian state? again, i think the problem is not the only bit because on hey, is uh, an extremely interesting conduct uh bought his, uh, the options are limits. he doesn't have any uh, law public support provided by other members selves. there are some that leads for instance, and ottoman didn't support hamilton. they bought several things to be happened during visit prize, and reg assumed a warning for instance, fizz. um now infamous of is yeah. wow, big boys. they sit in together, verify depth to me, to self defense. yes. cor, of the. so is it that you had of the rough minutes for intelligence? alex save and a shave in life. a bod. xyzzy off taking all gates and actually show you're going to rush them off. well, that's because i'm such

a shocking for me and i immediately contact with my source, i sense of russian security to services and special forces and ask them what do they think? and they bought the idea of that you have to tell us how those there are some boots for intelligence. uh, basically saying, while you can have them, if you want. uh, and my people said, wow, actually i like say it was right. and i think that was even more worth some 4 points. and because in this case you have the most capable of madison's russian middle tray and russian security services, publicly questionnaire as admitted tray. i dare say, given all of that, what you've just highlighted there, how much support do you think from corrosion might have had covertly from inside of the security service? it is the military, the leads because i mean, it appeared that his human, his wagner mercenaries that they meant no resistance. yes, absolutely. the once again, i just wanted to stress as a f, as be decided to do the opposite of to nothing. and they had and they control

online. some like, why did they fail to stop getting promotion? is what wagner uprising earlier? why was the biggest uh, i think the answer is that separate goes in is, uh, is it kind of, maverick, he's not part of the system. so for the system, for the russian system of intelligent security, 10 minutes restructure, as it's where the difficult to understand his place and position, everybody understands that it's all about putting together some personal connection . and the problem is, nobody knows, for instance, uh, what is this connection as we speak. so maybe it's really bad, maybe is getting better, maybe it's getting worse. so we don't now the general social, they didn't know at the moment, those uprising what might be that connection. and they just decided to wait and see . you highlighted one particular point in your previous writing, um the fact that the security service in particular, in moscow, they called on wagner fighters to go and arrest your guinea per goes in their own

leader. and this is especially extraordinary because the f. s, these military counter intelligence operatives are within wagner's ranks. how are you seeing this? because this is their job, isn't it isn't, isn't it a huge break and loyalty to the kremlin? how would this be being viewed right now by putting himself as a really good question? because i was this office for people icons from outside their selves. the system always f as b. of course it looks like a complete file. these people that put that to walk them to cumberland, involved the problems which might come up out of, of the walk in a group as that was a primary drop. right? uh, and as i says be, is not only about to impressions. that's about prevention risk. i'm not saying stuff happened and so they felt that there's upsets are clear about the same times . a problem this puts in is that he is to some extent parts of the system. just remember that he is a trained kids,

you'd be office. and in the similar circumstances, so 2 years ago and that's and that's 11 is a kid you be in some wild people as a parent and they're all wanted to stage occluded, taught and topple gorbachev. most of the ranks uh inside of the kitchen being decided to do exactly this same to wait and see what's in did absolutes in less thing. his friends, people, he now respects and who on now is a i'll on, is a key positions and as a russian security services, they all do the same. they did absolutely nothing, nothing and not to not to one. so you'll have this strange, emotional thing, shape and all false statement that actually when something really big is happening is not up. there's a security services to decide when to ok, which is absolutely uh, cancer, productive, but never as of as they have it. up senior pentagon officials have highlighted that

the uprising highlights poor coordination between the military and other security services. and can you give us a window into how deep the connections are, for example, between the military rushes security services and wagner in particular. well, 1st of all, i'm, i do not completely agree with this assessment. just remember that as of paid time off is uprising. the russian army kept finding that you're brand new and comprehensive. that it was no collapse all falls, the russian forces as a buckle filled. so the only thing they failed to face and the option to deal with was this particular muted in offering garzon. and here you have all the problems. beller says lucas jenko said that he ultimately procured the deal that sa precaution has. wagner force has a band and they're march toward moscow. is lucas shank over she 1000000, humiliating fulton, or did he save him? well, i think it was the whole. think about bill every sound. look, i think i participation of cause made puts in locus to me

a week. just remember that for many, many years, which it was familiar with things that idea and met can it sacrifice the idea of national southern sea? that was such a big thing that you can ball just to find all kinds of pressure on this if you want to, while to promote this thing. and that is why they got those are impressions in our country because it is a wake off national southern sit. and while ones you guys are real problem, pushing got the kids the real problem. while he left his mind a popped up uh, alexander walker, sancho go fix his internal program. so it does look for pollution. really good. lucas franko also saying that promotion is now in bella roost. although there's been no independent confirmation. he also hasn't been heard for it from in more than a week. what do you think is happening to per goshen is the sole live? well, it's difficult to say, but i think he's still very much alive. uh, 1st of all, what is well, in his grades this situation is really difficult to understand what is going on.

spots better of several interesting science stuff. default the whole think about criminal charges. so it's changing. but as far as i guess on the side as far as that, everybody got it as a criminal charges fund that adult, which is a big thing because one puts in and to come in, wants to expel somebody for real. well, you have the criminal charges, it gets to be a spouse. and for instance, in my case, i'm a wanted man in russia and i have criminal charges against me. so if i ever get back to the county, i am facing up to 10 years in prison, and that is a guarantee i was never getting back. but footprint garzon decided to make an exception so that it was no criminal charges. so legally speaking, but as nothing to prevent him from getting back to the same pitch as a boat to moscow to that now it's just safe at the spots of his business and pot for goes. you know, i mean he's, he's been promised this immunity. we have to say um, but he got richard who is this close ties to food now put in his actually mentioned

that the finances of precautions lucrative catering firm will be investigated. how do you see that? is this a signal that he could actually be prosecuted for financial crimes or, you know, was put in just trying to take them down a notch. i think it's about some parts of precautions to a business business and bar because of costs that some companies that are assigned . they've been that for years spot. they had no chance. now they've got this chance . so that trying to win this. so contracts provided by the government times administer of defense. mothers looks like gardens balls, skills, and his people are still important for put an address in several areas, for instance in africa. and it looks like uh, you come in does the one to completely dis, bond walk now and walk around the duration, say in the middle east and africa progression had been railing against the top military brass for months. ultimately, he said that the kremlin state of reasoning behind the war and ukraine was false,

wanting to put and allow the threat posed by promotion to fester for so long. well, pushing on the stands that's very clear that even in last of unpopular wars could produce very popular generals. and these generals, at some moment my become a political frat. that happens many times in russian history. pushing, understands that he understands fights. he cannot let that go. so he wanted to have some accounts of balance to that, some sort of maverick from my expos of programs in submitted tray and to keep mid trade generals off balance. that's exactly what was the role of precaution for all of these months. let's talk about the wagner miller scenary griffin. what happens to them next? they've been thrown into disarray. the fight for control is said to have just begun . lucas tango has invited mercenaries to relocate to in

a band into military base in the country. there are some reports of new satellite images appearing to show tents being set up in belarus to that effect. is that their best offer to go to bella roost and are they likely to take it? well, i think that that some moment which in just decided to relocate, walk in or to say if his public image of someone who is still on in control of the situation and the because it will suck cumulate and to have well, by the soldiers. martian of the, they're all, it's in russia, so he decided to really catch him, him to bellows. but of course, i mean, wagner has no other customers by the russian stage. biller, which is very much penetrated by uh, by the russians so, so it's not like you was expelled to some independent country and out a free trump law. scott, that's not true. the us says that right now, they're continuing to see some elements of the wagner group in russian occupied territory. and ukraine. ukrainian intelligence says that wagner will not fight in

ukraine any more. do you think that wagner in ukraine will go willingly, and it's about an interesting question that we have some reports written to actually today that so was not about office to say is it is the statement that they stopped recruiting people. uh right now for fonts and then ukraine bots um the language to be used as their and because it's like we have stuff in for now. so maybe the outpatient for some of the office over to full, maybe they would get would be given a new name. so, but i think some of them and stuff is group the fonts and as they did before, let's talk a little bit more about how russians are viewing all of this ukranian presidents. a landscape says that moscow has been suffering full scale weakness. he calls it for goes and has apparently tapped into the view that pollutant is and is a corrupt system where the ruling, the lead had been emerging themselves and are more interested in please in put in

then doing what is right for national interest. the ordinary people that that's the message which seems to have resonated how high is the dissatisfaction with putin and food newsome as well uh, in the middle of the tray. uh, the rear is a clear uh, spinning sides. the russian generals, as old as on not extremely competent. and it's a, it's a very interesting in our wonderful situation because it is right now that the russian army is the case of this new found confidence in themselves. because actually is, are you crazy on the fence? or physics seem to slow all that is the perception of the russian army is not my perception, but that's the holiday season situation. they base fear that it could be a really big know of a c. it's not that big and not back horrible. uh so that gets in this sense alpha uh, that sound not actually bad, bad. uh at the same time, but keep lame is age and you're all saying that that's why they supported to some

extent of silence. they may be because criticism because they share the same feeling, but it does move that, that ready to just don't take about it. so they still got approval and the sit in class, we need to find visible federal a very long time. is that, but here's how the, the head of the c, i a, is framing the situation. he says that disaffection with the world will continue to know away at the russian leadership and that it creates a once in a generation opportunity for the c. i a to recruit spies in russia. you are very familiar with the security services. do you think that the c i will find fertile ground for recruitment or? well, i think rather be as you know, there's a lot of wishful thinking. yeah. we're trying to, uh, the, to find every sign of, of descent as a, as a signal about the system, a will inevitably collapse. and i know as a, in the model for several months, i would be extremely,

i would be more cautious to be honest. it's not likely that lots of people accepted xyzzy. i was a war includes as a russian the let's put you in as a way to good at conducting repressions, especially against his own people. we have several s as the people in general that have ministers sends out government to send jail. so it is a big thing for the russian society yet. and lots of people themselves found the stands i. that's actually, that is no way for them, but to stay and to stay loyal to food stamps. so i would, i would say that, that poor c i a, it's might end up as soon as see, uh, but i would be cautious. also the program is bad to say which with the best people find that it was a chance for the factions. and right now for the rest of the lives, because the folder restrictions saw for travel, i mean the truck with easy to, to make it through europe. all it isn't that the stays, the chances that the same people as a russian, that is what the think. okay, maybe now i start spying cuz i'm any concerns about forgive, but give me a chance to, to move on to,

to friends and not to stays that quite same quote. and um, since the uprising he has been seeming to be bent on projecting normalcy and stability, we've seen him ramping on public appearances. and the week after the uprising, he gave a number of national addresses for training the rebellion. as a heroic episode, he travelled to the southern region of dag of san, where he sipped local cognac, he spoke about growing regional tourism. he even attended a technology fair in moscow. what are russians make of that? or are they buying it? well, no, not all of them off gums. so especially in big stages bogged and probing, says you have lots of people who are still very supportive of pollution and they accept as a russian propaganda adoption of a van. so that puts in my effort to avoid blood shit off to some extent. he did actually that it was no real big launch said uh, accept for this uh, unfortunate pilots and it is appropriate for the middle of tray. not for that

population promotion. i mean, his rants, they really offer this alternative to the war propaganda. for many russians in unvarnished glimpse from the front lines you highlighted the useless and unjustified losses. can russians really go back to regularly scheduled programming? well, that's a good question, but i think what the goals are they wanted to do, he wanted to become some sort of uh uh you will press it for, says the russian society, i'll be the licensed 2 times the rest and it leads to mobilize the rest of society to put in does one side. he still thinks that it's possible to win the business war if filed the total. my bill is ation. 9 but we don't know what might happen if say you agree on the offensive goes with the success a fall. we just don't know that might change the situation. and well, if that changes, they might be new space and your own fault with doors and then people are, can,

let's talk about prudent for us to short this power. first of all is a crack down under way. as that is one thing which is clear. uh, also it gives the services and the army as a national gallery, they loan, is it less than that? why do you have a program? is it a sort of circle of pollution? is it better not to interfere? and i think it is a very bad signal for points and because well what if tomorrow some of the guys say could do it? of all someone, all is the rest of the security council. now come opposite the russian television and say, wow, i'll wasn't sure why the major go to hell and we need to replace, give someone that would be a huge confusion by this class right now. you. if you look at the overall situation, though, russia's most senior generals, they, they've dropped out of view since the uprising. i'm thinking about general ross him off. he's reporting not appeared in public. he's of course, in charge of the war effort and ukraine. the kremlin has also been deflecting

questions about the whereabouts of general sort of the can, who is seen as aligned with precaution and believe to be detained. what do you think is happening to them? a while it's really difficult to understand. i've been checking the information about so vague and for all these days it looks like sort of forced by to was sent to prison. we kind of confirmed them, but he said it seems that he was at least interrogate as. and it's quite interesting vibes we are here and visit almost a bows in middle of the region. you're all smart enough about the security services, which is a very interesting thing. while you have these people, i'm is f as b as a national guard. all of the security services pulled in charge of putting us personal security and political stability. it is yet all the questions the criminal has. it's all about submitted track. how much impact do you think these events of the past weeks are going to have on the war and ukraine?

oh, it's a good question. because on the one hand we see of that walk in our didn't participate directly, at least in big numbers and, and trying to selves you praying and contra offensive. it is a jump was a regular russian army. while at the same time was there is still a very capable force and they have his reputation ends, the russian military. yet there is new confusion now because of the, obviously i'm using it stays by longer because of this policy who upheld full opposite to nothing. well, which is of course, enough of as was about to be spiel of his pilots, were killed because of a on another the russian heroes. but it was the middle tri are here and is that, that it would be no justice for the fall of his policy. and that samuel is, nobody would be prosecute that for killing this, this policy. and that credit and you confusion, it means that it has a re, regular army still finds and the bottle failed. you will have

a number of product miniature companies as an ottoman now is looking at his product mutual company, as well as some suspicion because these guys all was approved frederick and kill russian soldiers and they can get away the fed. so these kind of confusing and long dollar my sites, the situation is about the felt the ukrainian counter offensive has, has not yet achieved significant success. according to nato's top commander in europe. do you think that now there is more pressure on putting to end the war? no, i don't think so. i think what, pushing on the stance is, uh uh very was such a big investment in inside. yeah, of your brand new encounter offensive. uh, wallace was a big thing for uh for that you brand new and grabbing them as far as are you bringing latest ship? it was a big thing from h. f was a west in russia. it was played as a sign that the russian army well behaved at the and actually it was not extremely uh, great. uh,

is it big enough to walk by the vegas in batch are there is this. uh, there is a strange feeling now, especially because it's all about history and the 2nd baltimore and all of that. so there is these ideas shaded by man, yet by the russian army, olga scouts of war. uh, and the very bad shape bought a guess and best uh, on the way and put you on this trying to capitalize on vis spelling. i'd like to ask you one last question about the uprising, the wagner uprising because many are concerns that if food does fall, the concern is that a replacement leader could be worse crumbling, critical krakowski said the following week, glimpse how the regimes inevitable fall is likely to come about and the forces that we'll seek to take over so called national patriots, led by another fog. if you look at the big picture, do you think that russia is ultimately doomed to have one thug replaced by another? after putting all our thoughts into it might happen because as

a more visual goes, is it more as the russians the sides is getting used to visible? and now the, i guess it is a motional argument and save opposite will because there's so many casualties. there's so many people killed and even the people who felt well confused about the beginning of the war. now they have disappeared in growl and my villas someone gets killed by these ukrainian. so why should i feel sore and bought some more. so and some, and some way the support for that was guessing all it's not big about it's, it's most stable and it means that the whole system of the society projection itself does idea that while it's going to be with a long war. and in the long war you get people like general sand as why, while using the very top language a more and more and more popular pop law. and at some moment they might get some miles from position in depaula. yeah, that's true. and how long do you think putting has while i think it has to be i

talking about 2 years ago, so that definitely have to leave it there. thank you so much for joining us on conflicts on the thank you. the,

to the point clear position. international perspective in the face of turmoil in russia, neighboring rooms is playing increasingly active role, nuclear weapons, and wagner and bella. ruth estimates to ukraine and nato. that's our topic on to the point to the point, dw was the beautiful nefertiti who owns her

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