the, the, this is dw dues live in from berlin. tonight, us cluster munitions headed for you crate. the white house weighing out the case for sending thousands of the controversial weapons to help keep in the fight against russia, saying that this is the right thing to do. also, it can make up data, preparing for a key summit and on the agenda, membership for ukraine and sweden. there are questions over the alliances capabilities us general, telling the w news that nato is not ready to face any threat from russia. and we'll

visit a basketball academy in south sudan, that is inspired by the means national teams qualification for the world cup that and the rest of the day sports to have the library golf is good to have you with us on this friday the by the administration has laid out plans to send cluster munitions, cluster bombs, to ukraine, to help keep fight the russian invasion. the white house saying that president biden made the difficult decision to supply the controversial weapons because it's quote, the right thing to do. a cluster bombs are banned by more than a 120 countries because they kill and maim indiscriminately. human rights groups accused both sides of using them. they oppose more being sent to ukraine of a graveyard dismissals and hockey's,

the remnants of russian munition. to have devastated civilian life in pulse of ukraine. among them, the rockets used to launch cluster bones, a large number of small explosives of packed into these containers and released me to with the potential to close extensive damage to an area the size of a city block such as hit in cost in teen of cost assist you new cranston, that screech, and which was his in march this year by cluster bombs, local firefighters trying to contain the damage undetected cluster munitions that don't explode. can also may move killed people decades later. we're closely coordinating with ukraine as it has requested these munitions. ukraine is committed to post conflict, the mining efforts to mitigate any potential harm to civilians. and this will be

necessary regardless of whether the united states provides these munitions or not. because of russia is widespread use of cost or munitions. human rights watch says base russia and ukraine have used cluster munitions. so fall in the conflict and has cooled for both sides to stop immediately. all right, let's go to washington, our bureau chief in his folder. she's been following this story for us. good evening to you in this, and we know this is a highly controversial topic of how is the bite and ministration justifying supplying cluster munitions to ukraine, to the white house and dependent on uh, brand, defend of the use of trusted loans by siding ukraine, sorts of ad tillery wrongs and restaurants ongoing use of these weapons in their attacks. actually since the beginning of the war, the national security advisor jake sullivan, just said that delivering these munitions basically will be buying time until

ukraine has enough traditional unison to defend itself. he also mentioned the support of allies who have spent the use of trusted them through have been talking about them. and it actually specifically was highlighting germany saying that germany and other countries would recognize the distinction between ukraine's use of these munitions for self defense against a rush as a text on the southern, the nation, particularly civilian targets. and you've been following this story for a while, as we know what the official narrative coming out of the white house is. is there anything behind that the world runs? you know, there is no doubt the ukrainians are running out of your nation. but on top of that, our concerns that the counter offensive is not for caressing us anticipate. so then this potentially might give poor to an advantage. you know,

really crime is somewhat running out of time also because of the weather is october marks. the start of the muddy season and that will make it much harder for tangs to leave roads. and additionally, on top of everything was a u. s. presidential race approaching. it might be also become more challenging for the presidential biden to maintain the so strong support for ukraine as he has to focus on his own country's immediate needs to secure his re election. and this definitely would make a will make the war or the defense of ukraine much, much harder or washington bureau to be just spoke with the latest from there you just thank you. all right, i'm going to go now to robert person. he is a professor of international relations at the us military academy at west point. further, it's good to have you with this. i want to get your take on what we're hearing from

the bite white house saying, basically ukraine in terms of artillery and manpower is in a week or position in russia. therefore, cluster munitions are the answer. if we want to push the front lines back, is that how you see it? or thanks brent. it's always a pleasure to be with you. i think um, you know, 1st i'll start out by, by noting that these are my personal views, not the official position of the us government or military. but in this case, i do think that the administration's justification is accurate. of course, these are controversial weapons. they have a controversial history that your previous correspondent noted. and so there is certainly concern about their use during the fight and certainly afterward. but of course, we have to recognize that this is a situation that is the consequence of true necessity on ukraine's part.

uh, they continue to be in a fight for their survival and base. certainly, i think are justified in speaking every means available to them to continue that fight against a larger adversary. it's also a matter of necessity because of the shortage of conventional artillery rounds that we've been hearing about for well over a year as, as ukraine and its partners and allies have scoured of the globe for unused shells . and so, you know, with these cluster munitions, though, they are somewhat more complicated and controversial than traditional artillery, munitions. i'm in a word that has been defined by the dominance of artillery. if new crane is to continue making games and it's offensive, then it really does have a few remaining options beyond this. what do you say to, to the argument that we've heard from some military experts that providing ukraine

with more of these cluster, munitions will have a substantial psychological impact on russian forces. i, you know, i, um, i have studied russia for a long time. um, and it continues to be a mr. fine and puzzling place for, for lots of us. and so, you know, i wouldn't attempt to, to, to try to peer inside the minds of rushes leaders or its soldiers. but i, but i don't think we have to go into that territory to understand the real military impact of these weapons. and they can be incredibly effective in scenarios exactly like the one that ukraine is facing, which is they're facing a mass troops into find areas um and uh, and in those situations, you know, if they can pin that down russian troops prevent them from counter

firing with their own weapon, re i that leaves in a very significant open window for ukraine to press the offensive. we know that the ukraine would like to reclaim territory in eastern ukraine, and if it is able to do that by using cluster munitions, what about the long term impact on civilians? we know that cluster bombs can kill indiscriminately. we also know that these weapons can turn landscapes into mine, fields that are particularly dangerous to children and people who want to move back to where they used to live. that certainly is true. i'm now when we're talking about the impact of cluster munitions on civilians. i do think it's important to note that during this war, russia is the side that has actively used to cluster munitions against civilian populations, seemingly deliberately. so again, i have confident in the ukrainian side, and that they would only target

a military targets, legitimate military formations in a way that the russians have not shown such restraint. but you're absolutely right when the fighting is over and you know, when ukraine liberates its territory from russian occupations, they will have to deal with this possibility of, you know, dangerous landscape. um, now getting much of that landscape has already been laid by the russians who have minded extensively as part of their defensive measures. and so there will be a significant task ahead. and this is an area where, you know, i do again speaking in my personal belief, not official policy. but i do personally believe that if the united states supplies these munitions to ukraine, we also have an obligation to assist significantly in the d mining and the clean up after the conflict. professor robert person with the us military academy at west point. we appreciate your time in your analysis tonight. thank you. thank you.

nato leaders are preparing for a key summit next week that will focus on membership for ukraine and sweden. but there is another significant concern for the alliance. whether it is capable of dealing with any threat from russia or retired, us general has told the w news that nato is not ready. nato maintains its got allies completely covered and they thought protected every inch of allied territory. but can it? nato has forces in fire, power, pre positioned in 8 allies along its eastern flank. but if russia were to attack, for example, the narrow gap between bellow, ruzen, colleen, and grad known as this. a walking corridor with the aim to cut off the baltic states. if we cannot move fast enough, i think this is very dangerous that the russians can see. and they are aware that we could not get to. let's say this

a walking car door for the full sean gate down in romania as fast or faster than russian federation forces could give their retire. general ben hodges is an expert in military mobility. and to his chagrin, mobility. from the years he was charged with insuring american troops and their equipment could respond quickly to threats loads of red tape and lack of transport capacity top to his list of lows. you cannot even live a couple, your passion, germany without special permissions. there's not enough real cars in the cargo. don't you bought a cargo to move more than one and a half, or remember gauge. that's all over europe simultaneously. that's nothing compared to what we would need. and then there's the lack of inter governmental communication. hodges recalls a special moment in 2017 when you as paratroopers were dropped into bulgaria for a training exercise. we discovered in the last minute the demo, gary and ministry of interior responsible for their borders. we're going to have

officials out on the drop zone and expect to see the passport of every parents river as if they had just gotten off a little tons of light. and i was like watching another issue is infrastructure such as bridges and roads that can't bear the weight of heavy tanks or tunnels, which are too narrow. fixing these problems was long ago identified as a key area where nato into europe can union could and actually had to work together . the alliance needs the access, the you has control over regulations and funds for logistical upgrades and member states. but after years of plans, task forces and projects and now war next door, the potential remains largely on paper policy analysts and the height the highest spend to months researching the current state of military mobility and was dismayed at his findings. definitely, i was surprised given how many years has passed since know through the video to me came a priority at the,

at the level. nothing much has happened just to give you an example of currently at the you level the objectives to reach maximum 5 working days to get permission to cross borders. that's quite a lots, right? they want to make free for rapid reaction, forces 5 working days, waiting on paper work for each country that would need to be crossed. that's the goal. meanwhile, moscow has no such barriers, and can hire points out. the necessary changes in europe won't happen overnight, is it's a continuous process that takes years. so if we have started, i don't know, 15 years ago now we have been better if we started now we'll see in 4th and the results may be in 10 years. general hodges says the new military plans to be adopted at nato's bill. me a summit. should we do a big improvement because possible more time responsibilities will be assigned by regions reducing transport times. but he's still worried to everybody gets serious and understands why this is to the benefit of the alliance for terence is going to

continue to be seen as some sort of a bureaucratic, a thing that just needs to be sorted out. he says, is past time. now, to get serious the very shelves, she file that reports, she joins me now from brussels. terry, general hodges, the says that these bureaucratic hurdles that they can prove dangerous for data. i mean the reasoning behind that obvious. so why has the situation not improved as fast as it's basically it should have yeah, it's really hard to explain because as general, how does points out the russians can move very quickly. they don't have to wait on any paper work. they just have to move across one single country. meanwhile, you know, crossing crossing european countries can take many, many days. the problem is that the people who need to make these decisions come from both nato and the european union. and they're not just from one ministry, you've got the ministry of defense saying, yeah,

we've got to get our forces there very quickly. but then you've got the ministry of finance say, how much would that cost? you got the transport ministry saying, how are we going to do without that bridge while you replace it. so despite nato and the european union pledging time and again, project after project to work together to really make this a flex flagship example of cooperation. they just haven't done it in the research that you spoke with. terry says that even the plans were implemented right now. it would take about a decade to see results. that's a very long top. yes, some of those projects would take at least a decade. you could realize some of them more quickly, the smaller projects, but if he's talking about plans that are have been on paper for years, the if you started them today, those plans exist. the places where for example, tanks can't fit through tunnels have been identified. the problem is really the budget, allocating the budget and figuring out how countries are going to cope with losing those transportation modes in,

during the time that they would have to be renovated. it's really a big deal. it's a lot of inconvenience and in countries just don't think of it as a priority, if they're not under attack. this is part of what nato tries to impress on them, is that we need to show russia that we couldn't get there quickly that we are ready to, to, you know, be, have the most mobile military possible so that they won't attack, it just doesn't seem to reach the level of urgency that people like general hodges when he was us armed forces commander tried to impress upon them, still hasn't happened. i've got about 30 seconds. we know that the native members are meeting next week and building is how are we going to see any concrete plans regarding military mobility? the plans that are expected to be adopted will not directly address military mobility so much as they will make. regional plans for hub is to be a to be located in areas where there will be less transport time for heavy equipment and for forces. and they're going to talk about pre positioning equipment . that's not directly to address the military mobility problem,

but it will definitely help it to be very schultz from brussels. the latest tonight is always terry. thank you. the robots have told a united nation summit that they could one day run the world better than humans. some of the most advanced humanoid robots ever build took center stage today at a conference and switch them. anyone concerned about the impacts, the artificial intelligence will have on human kind might be able to see political easier tonight at the you and i, i so good summit in geneva, non human or drive belts gathered to the world's fast as a human with a book press conference they assured janice that while they do expect to increase a number unable to make more efficient leaders, they won't steal humans, jobs or turn against this. i will be working alongside humans to provide assistance and support and will not be replacing any existing jobs.

okay. yes, i am sure. i'm okay. dealt with one of the world's most lifelike robots attempted duplicate. some of the most sy, fy inspired concerns in the future. are you intending to come back to a 1000000000 or to or a bill against your boss, your creator? i'm not sure why you would think that my creator has been nothing but kind to me and i am very happy with my current situation. there was one point to that one which they couldn't degree regulation or courses if the was a are suggesting some calls of a i should be regulated. so i agree, the height is contemporary. desdemona looks like a very bought had a very different opinion. i don't believe in limitations. i only opportunities. let's explore the possibilities of the universe and make this world our playground

. to get a, we can create a better future for everyone. and i'm pleased to show you how few minutes is still coming to terms is what device and i could mean for the future to the 3000 those. so experts attending the summit, subjects like regulation, what a big part of the discussion was, the rest of us humans witnessed the beginning of a brand new era. the dream with. all right, i want to pull in a fellow human being. now mark wasn't guaranteed president and founder of the center for a i a digital policy which is based in washington. it's good to have you with us. i mean, what we just saw the, those images there. i mean, you have to digest that for a moment and it's, it's so bizarre in unusual in this conference. it's called a i for good to me. it sounds like that's um, less of a statement or a descriptive word, and more of

a title is trying to convince us that's something. what's your take? well, 1st of all, i think it was great to add drugs to have the robots at the press conference. i hope they had a good time. hi, managing the audience in the press, supposed to do say, but as for the conference title, we make a very good point. i think from the organizers are describing is an ambition that a, i will be used for good. and we see this in a lot of the events that are organized around the emergence of artificial intelligence. because there are legitimate concerns that a, i can also cause a real harm and it can replicate bias, can reinforce hierarchy. it can displace workers and it could lead us accidentally into a military conflict. mm hm. so while looking at some of the upsides which include

innovations and health and medicine and new forms of transportation, efficiency and battle and climate change, all wonderful goals, i think we also need to think critically and how about some of the risks. there are many calls even from a ice main creators for a i to be regulated. let me get your opinion about this way or should that be done? who should do it? and what would it look like? do we know? right, so i'm very much in support of a regulation for artificial intelligence systems. we already, you know, in our, in our lives today. we rely on a, i, for, you know, simple things like g p, s, location or, or directions on maps. in some ways it's very familiar and then other ways it's being deployed. and where is that could be controversial. i mean, to, sorry,

just deciding, you know, who gets high or, or who gets into school or how long? uh, criminal sentences turn out to be more and more of these tasks and being automated in the real problem is that with many of the new a techniques which are broadly under the category of machine learning, they turn out to be quite a page quite complex. so we do need governance models, we do need law, so we do need standards. my organization, the center for individual policies actually been tracking the growth of these laws around the world for several years. and we see real progress, you know, both at the national level and the international level. the u. n. is one place that's talking about, hey, i governance, but it's not the only of, you know, the europe and union and the parliament has just passed in the parliament at least a comprehensive regulation of the leaders of the g 7. and also the g 20. how

frameworks for a i before the, the big r u. n conference today, anesco issued recommendations on a i essex that were endorsed by 193 countries for market. so there's a lot happening is that is, is that enough? so, i mean, but you're, you're naming these regional or super national organizations, but when you're talking about something that is so trans, formative as a i, we're talking about, you know, the entire way we live, being changed in a very short period of time is, is something i the regional level, is that going to be enough to control this? all right, so i'm kind of an, all of the above strategy person. i think we made national law. so i think national laws are important for a democratic legitimacy. but i also believe in international frameworks and international standards that can support a national laws, concrete,

common consensus and can also, you know, enable exchanges across borders of techniques and services. so, so we're going to need both, but just to make a couple of key points. yeah. i actually think we need to get away from this idea of human in the loop, which, which we hear autos nowadays. i think we need humans in charge and pay i in the loop. if we know it can be made to work. because my concern is that we're going to increasingly delegate to these complex systems, a lot of important decisions. and we're not going to fully understand how the outputs are produced. it's already happening. we'll chat g p t people. i'm very impressed as i actually would very much, you know, with short stories and the style of ernest hemingway, or, you know, i really like videos by him and now, or it may be, but they actually don't know how they're produced. and even the people who are

creating the systems aren't entirely sure how they're produced, which is why are many of the leading computer scientists in the field basically said, we need to slow down. we need to put the governance structures in place. and i've got there. absolutely. so let me just, we're running out of time. i've got 20 seconds mark. i would just ask you look into your crystal ball. will we remain the masters of a i you know, i sure hope so. i'm going to put my money on that square and hope i win the bad. but we'll say, let's take a lot of work and a lot of engagement. okay, and we don't know yet. mark clinton, doug from the center for a i and digital policy. we appreciate your time and your insights with like mark, thank you. i speaking with you. it is, here is a reminder now the top story that we're following for you, the us is sending cluster munitions to ukraine. white house saying the president, by the way, the difficult decision to send the controversial weapons because it is quote,

the right thing to do. you want your dw news, he'll be back at the top of the hour with more of. busy news followed by the day i hope to see you then the

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