the phone lines on facebook, the app store and youtube. hey guys, it's evelyn charmaya. welcome to my pod cast. last the matter is that i invite celebrities, influenza and experts to talk about all plain loves, thanks and data. and yet today, nothing less. the 1000, all these things and more and the new season of the pop. com. make sure to tune in wherever you get your costs and join the conversation. because you know, it's last matter the when allies agree ends, conditions are met. the wording could hardly be more vague. nato has put a damper on your cranes membership aspirations, saying, and will be able to join, but not associates, and will have expedited access. but when is anyone's guess, certainly not before the war is over,

ukraine's leadership is furious. as her and know many times already know, tangs no to miss aust notified her and yet and in due time all the knows turned into yes it's but this time it looks like no really does me know it frames the president zalinski calls the move observed and accuses nato of allowing russia to continue. it's her uncle for leasing berlin. and this is the day the we have firms of deceptive grain will become a member of nato. i mean, everybody here good. each step at a future boss, for ukraine into nato. totally a matter of an issue of the way to go that if the war ends the then the opportunity to window opens and ukraine can join studio. i came here today. you believe begin

resolves believing in our partners believing in his strong nato. they're not all i understand the frustration of president will not go in and they tell you that does not doubt, does not to waste time and does not look the other way. also on the day south african runner cast. there's so many a windows of the european court of human rights judges rule that to stop strong limits imposed on female athletes are discriminatory, but it's not clear whether she'll be allowed to take to the truck again. just say look to finish it or is it finish a lot if you need to finish it or you can stop by and we can keep silent, we can keep abusing her. let's just let it be. welcome to the shell. it's good to happy with us. nato says ukraine can join the defense a lines of future dates. that is, a date number of states are not prepared to name a line. so set out

a series of conditions open to a lot of interpretation when allies agree and when conditions are met, says the joint declaration. it's a lot less than ukraine wants the country finding ford survival in the face of russian aggressors, once a clear path to membership. it seems obvious to president zalinski europe security and depends on ukraine security. but that has not convinced his friends to make them allies yet. here's the nato secretary general. but we reaffirmed that ukraine will become a member of nato and agreed to remove the requirements for the membership function time. this will change your crane some membership pos from a 2 step process to one step process. we also made clear that we will issue an invitation for ukraine to join. they don't when all of us agree on the conditions argument. this is

a strong package for ukraine, undeclared, paul, towards its membership in nato. let's move on and get the premium perspective and bring and alexander share of why he's in ukraine and diplomat, and served as a master to austria until 2021. today he's the ambassador for strategic communications at the ministry for foreign affairs, mr. sure. right, welcome to dw presidents. a landscape says it's observed that nato doesn't establish a clear timeline for ukraine's membership. how do you feel about the declaration is slow, so i won't fly. it's a kind of disappointment, quite frankly, considering that so nature's policy towards you. praying, let's be honest to was why history one big lie or was it was to do the kids of these people school said that to uh the doors to open, but in reality everybody knew that they are because that was the way of

to me to, to not to escalate to not to provoke crash or how he was the best or it was became . so what is that this policy? well, we know what the sam bully this fails after a year and a half of you praying basically doing nato's job and deciding europe and providing security to you. in the face of this uh, mass russia. since i have to $23.00 countries of may, so supported the grid of timeline for your grand mesa excess and the vsoft is will bill. it was more of them. uh and this uh, this is the final statement of the site. so why do you think the company okay, is so bank, what is nato afraid of? and who within nato is afraid is 1st of all, it's about the position whole, the american leader. and so we were extremely saffel and grateful to jo by

them. uh, uh, who was providing the supports and all the necessary, you know, uh uh, basically taking the right position on, on how to be player nations. but in this particular point, it sounds, it's a little bit like contamination over absolutely failed to always see and the st. tomorrow, during the uh no roll meeting will the credit and need to call. so they will do is wide open conversation about it and knowing the temperaments of our president the til basically is a discussion tomorrow. and there's some argue that it's not in nato's best interest . to grant membership to ukraine, one ukraine bring to the table in exchange for the alliance, potentially risking an all out war with russia. but nobody's speaking about bringing new cream right now because of the war with this russell, we're speaking about. so opening a door and opening,

i'm finding some talking more tangible and clear that all these, you know monstrous on the back of it turns out to be shallow. and m. c. y said the member though, sorry to interrupt you. there are see why showed ukraine become a member, what would they bring into the alliance aside from the, from this army, in europe, aside from the population, this absolutely adamant really believes and made so aside from uh, you know, proving that so we are uh, we are protecting i'm sizing and bleeding for the wellness of maine, so well, all these things. so last so i don't know it will be right, is pretty good. why would you hope to get as a member that you are not already getting now of for so after the war pounds will be a huge for it. so we're building ukraine, of course,

and no same courses. investor would invest in the cost for you that doesn't have a certain secuity umbrella or over it and to nato's this article is the most tangible thing to provide. so i some bro, using very disappointed sodas, presidents the landscape, what's the way for work now? the most important thing is, of course the, to those, the nato and your brain. i'm looking at the front of the 3 countries of the major who clearly stated to what they want, i think to tomorrow, the meeting will be gone. so will also show the majority of the country is really, really wanting to, you know, leave for, in the past, this policy over, we're towards you. great. and to as open,

i'm 3 wireless to each other. we should be moving the head 1st to to, you know, the winning this war and 2nd to, to will, making europe a more secure and will save space as you're creating diplomat alex and our sarah. thank you so much for your time. thank you. and we can developed the story further with justin logan. he is the director of defense of foreign policy studies at the castro institute thing time. he specializes in us grand strategy and u. s. foreign policy. welcome to the day. let's start writing no clear path to nato membership for ukraine at this point in your opinion, should key received an invitation to join the alliance for, you know, i think that the decision itself not to extend a meaningful pathway to membership for ukraine was correct. i actually agree with the president's a lensky and a, a master that was just on the show that there has been a considerable amount of double talk and, and sort of leading ukraine along to believe that it will some day become a member,

but substantively the western allies, united states, germany and france have revealed that they don't believe they have an interest in ukraine worth fighting russia over. and given that the article 5 commitment is joe biden, has recently put it is a so called sacred commitment to treating an attack on one member of nato as an attack on all we shouldn't extend or security guarantee to a country we've just revealed. we don't believe we have an interest in finding over . well, let's talk about when ukraine becomes a member, because at this point it seems to be a matter of when not, if do you think that would the term rush off from future aggression as well? i'm not sure that it is a matter of, of when and not if at this point. i mean, it's hard to predicts 20 years down the road, but i think for the policy relevant future, it's terribly unlikely that ukraine will become a member of the alliance. and as to the question of whether article 5 would

actually determine russia to kind of go back to the point that i made previously. and credibility is a sort of which he thing, right? it's difficult to quantify. it's difficult to make a commitment, credible. and given that in the very recent past in the present, in fact, we've reviewed that, we don't believe we have an interest in finding russia and ukraine. president biden calls such a prospect. world war 3. there's reason to fear that the russian president or any russian leader would say, look, the americans have said that this would be world war 3 in, under no circumstances. are they going to fight for ukraine? so why would we credit an article 5 commitment to ukraine? and then i think there's a risk that we're that to happen. um you have other very vulnerable countries like the baltic states, for example. wondering hey, wait a minute, which kind of article 5 guarantee do we have? do we have the kind that france and germany had a, you know,

france had during the cold war and germany had starting and west germany had started in the fifty's. or do we have some other ukraine type, article 5 guarantee that means something completely different. so what you're implying is that nato was never stand up to russia or nato. it wouldn't just never stand up to russia in ukraine under article 5. it is, it's a ukraine question right there. if we granted an article 5 security guarantee to ukraine and russia were to attack it, we would have really 2 choices. this right? react as though article 5 is a sacred commitment and as president biden has said, you know, the united states will defend every inch of nato territory if you'll forgive the imperial measurement. and so that would lead to the prospect of a direct nato. russia shooting more with the potential for nuclear escalation. where are we to stand by the commitment? if we were to renee on the commitment and say, well, we'll just send some material and money and things, but we're not actually going to fight for ukraine. then you have many other nato

members saying what the americans fight for us with the germans fight for us. and i think that is the uncomfortable underlying reality that we face in this sort of, strange discussion about admitting nato admitting, excuse me, ukraine to nato. so what do you think is a high and these vague promises of not now, but later if in your opinion, there is no real interest of ever including ukraine in the alliance? that's a very good question and i don't have a good answer to it because i use an article that i published last week and said, you know, the honorable thing to do would be if you have no intention of doing something plainly admit, we're not going to do this so that ukraine won't have the possibility of engaging and wishful thinking or hearing what it wants to hear, but they continue to sort of bangle this prospect out there. and i don't know why they're doing it. um, you know, i,

i think it is. i understand quite clearly why the ukrainian leadership is frustrated and it's just my hope that they will kind of read between the lines and understand that this is conceived of in some western capitals as the kind of polite way to say no. when in fact i think it's actually quite dangerous and disingenuous, it is very dangerous and you can see that there is a lot of disappointment on the ukrainian at side right now. i'm. i want to get back to something that, that you said before that it's not, you know, in the united states interest to see ukraine included in nato. but nato was created to deter soviet expansionism stopped the revival of nationalist, militarism in europe through a strong north american presence, and to encourage 0 pain, political integration. now let's pull all of these principles into the 21st century . when you pray, name accession not fit right into this mission of us. the needle was founded

at a time when you claimed was part of the soviet union. if you had told policy makers and 19491950, we're going to keep this thing rolling until the ukraine is a member of the date of said you were out of your mind. us policy in europe historically has been counter hedge, a monic, united states interest is to prevent one country from dominating europe. so world war, one, world war 2, the cold war. these were all scenarios in which there was a prospect that germany twice and the soviet union ones could have dominated the european continent. even if russia were to conquer all of ukraine. if it took all of ukraine without a shot, having been fired, it's g. d. p would have gone up by 10 percent, making it roughly the size of italy use. and it would have had a 2nd major port on the black sea that does not put russia in a position to dominate europe, or even really to threaten germany or poland, given the terrible military performance the russians have had in the 1st 17 months

of the war, so my view as an american is that our interest in ukraine is limited. it's particularly limited as contrasted with ukraine's interest in ukraine, which is almost unlimited. and that's where you heard ukrainians last spring. for example, calling for the us to enter the war via a no fly zone, the us politely decline and a number of things where the ukrainians have actually tried to escalate and bring the united states the right one, a surface to air missile from ukraine landed in full when we on the seconds left, but i do want to ask you if a national interest really reigns supreme, what is the, what's the point in being in an alliance as well. nato was founded at a point when it was very plausible that the soviets could have come in and taken the industrial heartland of europe for itself. so i think there was a very plausible argument that we needed to prevent the soviet union from

dominating europe. it's just that russia can't dominant this. russia can't dominate europe today. right? just the login director of defense and foreign policy studies at the cato institute . many thanks. thank you. the issue of air defense is also high on the edge and not the nato summit. germany wants to lead the way with a plan to protect against air attacks. the european sky shield initiative as it's called, aim to purchase air defense systems jointly to reduce costs. but the plan has proven devices from key f to chrome, a task russian mess sales have davis, the to ukrainian cities, destroying thousands of homes, killing hundreds, and forcing europeans to ask the question. are we safe currently in this situation with regard to european, near the sense is really not very good of the past few years. this has not been

a priority. no, it is on jim and he wants to lead the way. with the, with the european sky shield initiative, we're bringing together european states to join key increase protection against ballistic missiles, cruise missiles and drones. this is what it could look like. 6 irish p surface to air rocket systems would target short range missiles. a dozen patriot systems would be used to intercept the medium range missiles on to top it off. our 3 would defend against attacks from outside the shop must be providing vast cover at all 3 according to calculations and some other people's a highly footprint of couples on kilometers so it can defend people, large area, the contrast, but so far the angle color ever the same,

the, the 4000000000 euro is really american build shield is controversial. it's not clear whether it can work with nate's was existing network, 30 or defense. seems to be rather divided opinions, enrolling in brussels on whether arrow could be integrated into nature's architecture. still more than a 1000 european countries, i've signed up to balanced vision. but germany's nearest all i friends is pushing its own initiative. your mind well macro and once your opinions to be more strategic. in other words, they will their own. postpone it to be, why do we still have to buy american so often? because the american so much most standardized and we are and they massively subsidize today, a manufacturer just the the germans though, argue you're gonna need to,

the systems know of the all fi. so across the seems to be, we're not in such a hurry that we need to build and bridge technologies. and we can wait until what we develop in europe is ready. we and others are not convinced about that. initially what sort the aftermath of yet another mess i will strike in ukraine a remainder that as you add up to be sits there, defends needs. not every country has the luxury of time. the castor so man. yeah. is used to winning. after all, she's a world class class athlete, but this victory as sure to be special. enrolling on tuesday, the european court of human rights found that the south african runner had been discriminated against when she was ordered to take medication to lower her to stop strong levels. in order to be allowed to compete as a one, a 3 time world champion and double olympic champion over 800 meters, was born interest sex with so called differences of sexual development,

but has always identified as female. she's refused to take the medication since the international world athletics federation. introduce the role in 2018. now after a long running legal battle, the european court of human rights has hold in her favor. world athletics will seek to appeal the protect more let's bring in katrina kirk causes. she is a cultural anthropologist at m. hurst, college and massachusetts. she's also the co author of to software own and an authorized biography which sets out the facts about the hormone and correct falls perceptions and ms surrounding it. welcome to the day here you can see the cover of the book and less time right in. what's your take away from today's core decision? i think it's a tremendous decision. i think it surprised many who works on these cases, including casters multiple cases over the last couple of years. and i think it sends original ending message right now that the lens through which we've talked

about and debated these policies, which is primarily been a scientific one, has been to the disadvantage of considering human rights violations. and so what this decision does is put human rights violations front and center and say that the prior cases have given due consideration to these violations. that goes all the way back to the earliest case at the court of arbitration for support. and it argues essentially that caster has not been given proper remedies through all of her challenges. so it's really an incredibly important and wonderful decision that's come out today. this ruling applies only to the way costs are so many. it was treated in switzerland and it won't allow her to return to competition automatically. she might still miss the 2024 olympic game. so is this when anything but symbolic? so, you know, i could see why one might suggest that,

but i think it's much more than symbolic, and i think it's actually going to have a long term impact not simply regarding these regulations, but the connection between sports and human rights more generally. so part of what's happened in these debates is that they have been focused on the science and we've not paid due diligence to the harms. and it sends a message, i think, to other sports governing bodies that those human rights harms need to be considered. and in fact, i would argue that world athletics, he's not at the forefront, but he's actually falling far behind these kinds of considerations such that you know, the i o c very recently redid their regulations and did them exclusively through human rights framework. steve is also going through a similar process. so world athletics at this point actually lives out of step 4 repeatedly, not considering or even acknowledging human rights violations with their regulations

out of step you say. and today they came out saying that their rules are necessary, reasonable and proportionate means of protecting fair competition in the female category. also. and now i'm seeing an appeal to the ruling. when did you say that? well, what we know is the world that's lennox for decades now, i would argue close to southern has been targeting particular athletes to get them out of sport. so in a way, this is a very old story that has been debated and adjudicated over and over. there have been times when there has been no regulations. there have been times where there has been regulations, but the world is changing. in our understanding, i think of sex complexity, gender complexity is also shifting, which is what makes world athletics. i think look out of step with, you know, part of the conversations that are happening currently around that complexity. we

only have about a minute left. but i do want to get into the scientific nitty gritty because somebody, it was sanctioned, effectively due to her to stop strong levels. so scientifically speaking, why is this so problematic? well, i think here's the deal. these rely on a particular connection or causal connection between testosterone level and athletic performance. and when you look more broadly at the evidence, that body of evidence is fixed. sometimes there was a positive relationship between testosterone level in athletic performance. sometimes it's neutral and sometimes it's negative, which means that actually the higher the testosterone, the worst to do. so it's not at all a clear relationship and that's what makes these flat footed policies that argue volume metrically, about testosterone and athletic performance don't hold. as katrina ker causes from amaris college in massachusetts. thank you so much for breaking this very complex

topic down for us. thank you us. and that's our time. but make sure to stay informed. stay engaged and stay in touch. so you can find this on twitter, either our team ops the w news, or you can follow me as nicole's buddies for now though, from all of us here at the day. thank you so much for spending parts of your day by the

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technologies work. they can that's how they can also watch it. now the, the, the we news long from berlin nieto extends a vague promise of membership to ukraine. at the alliance of summit in vilnius, secretary generally installed and works as ukraine could join when allies agree and conditions are met, provides no timeline. also on the program. nationwide protests the pro.