it is still in his place. the system has survived so far, no personal changes has occurred at all. even a i don't know the kremlin broadway on dispute or in the ministry of defense or for that's uh for the matter of that in wagner. so it looks like for the moment we have this a music really room where everyone got their own. pre gordon seems to be losing hughes media and prior or at least putting it on hold because the information is really very modeled. we cannot be sure the wrong from here. what, what would we ever see? what, so again, we have in the army z. i need to state is code just for the moment. what we will be of the signs that on the rambling goes further. well, i would expect um, in this case, the bad example of pre gordon to be followed by somebody else. you may start low key with, for example, video tape, the dresses of some military personnel to the president out or to the minister of

defense. again, the listing some grievances and asking to billy some to or we may perceive we may witness leave defections on the high level them previously. for example, somebody from the government or formerly from the government may disappear and them appear on the other side of the board. are ready maybe to talk about something to make some public declarations or to make them on public communications with the author, which is office that your pm junior or united states. or we may see some leaks on the level of this linked phone conversation between mister ink from you, sir. is that um saying something uh, by the way, speaking about the links which are assigned of the system not being able to do what is most praise itself. i'm doing reserve, the secrecy, the information about the meeting over the present with the wagner people it was

leaked by was published by the french newspaper, only brushing them. and after the kremlin, have to again, it's not clear for me why they could have kept denying it. it's no problem for them to the right and your thing. but they, for some reason, pulled themselves blige to actually confirm that the meeting to place. it means that somebody over there in a very close circle now in the kremlin, is talking to, well, somebody who is down talking to the mainstream, your press, this is a fine. you characterize the russian state recently as a system mostly based on imitation, make believe hypocrisy lip service isn't about pretty much the way it was in soviet times. so could this system collapse the way the soviet union did this totally up to you and you have had a couple of for the sales like cars here and probably do a legit. absolutely close borders and sounds realize the color of this made is that

once you're a boat and brutal, it happens with such a metro systems our current system in joyce m. morales market. the cool i, me and more or less functional system of suited brokerage see, which actually holds the country together. and the advantage of open boulders which allows to get the read of discount without now direct and widespread violence. so it is not as for the system, but it has quite a lot of similarities with the late version of soviets. originally, when it was almost all pre pounds, nobody leave it in either over to any longer. not much violence exercised by the state of absolutely no enthusiasm on the part of the people about and your thing. and the last but not least, dissatisfaction of their leads with the way they leave out. the spreading idea of f change may be to the advantage. i decided to fax you to the lead to uh, according to some reports,

a number of security personnel called in sick on the 24th of june. not wanting to show which side they were on in case things got out of control. another report said these were, must go, police officers hedging that. that's just as they had in 1991 during the attempted coup against me file gorbachev was that a lot of that happening on june the 24th. and is this a police state but can't rely on it's police any longer? well again, to an extent the cam, as you see there were no open defections, no one united himself or uh no, no our body united itself with them you 10 years. but they say how, but they stayed home. yes, yes they, they stay there. how, that's the very, very, a rush, something to do. and as a political side is, i'm kind of glad that we have this good example to demonstrate what is a service area and popularity. you remember all the talk about the support for the president, how the country is united, be crime came. so even compared to all the,

all the courts like ever the gum, the russian prism cannot rely on, well, any one except perhaps of the 1st. so people, the federal guardsman, a service, they are all seem to be still around him. who consulted, rely on who can do to rely on after these missteps. visit the house that um there is a body guard service the for so are evidently he thinks he can rely on those by their ends. the look of because he's arming them, they are to receive and as a public promise on it, they have to receive heavy armament. which means that this argument will be taken from the front line. well, we will not be able to the front line because this probably the realization that we actually need forces in moscow not somewhere out today. and you claim, because we need to defend ourselves wherever them think about getting or when neighbors learn. how far might this rebellion if that's what it was,

impact rushes approach to the board and ukraine? that's a good question. if there are a g, a that i have just tried to describe, we'll take roots, even the minds of decision makers. it may lead to their let's build it carefully to the great, so we have done this to at least try to freeze the conflict or even to come see something for the sake of being able to stop those facilities which operating the very system at risk. the rest, an expression for this is you guys really? we'd lose the war. we shouldn't have to think about game. we have trouble enough keeping. always self alive. that's a very good frame of mind for the beginning of any sort of peace talks. how far do you think putting his go back? is objectives in ukraine, or is he still dreaming of taking care of all taken care of at our say it's about

installing a pro russian government in ukraine. that's why they were so much talk about it's not being an occupational campaign. if there's a pro russian government them key, if there is absolutely no need for russia to take any any be though if you create them territory. because all the plans here are 3 will be pro rational. that's the idea. and i cannot say wherever it is still alive in the heads of any one or or not. but the very fact of an exciting territory was due to the realization of the fact that no pro russian government, them key of is forthcoming any time soon. and you don't see anybody still in the kremlin dreaming of that. i mean, they haven't been characterized by the detailed knowledge or accurate knowledge of the situation in ukraine. how big i'm the mother and i've been very good. we don't know, we don't have no. and of course, to are,

we don't know whether anyone is dreaming about and you think i have the sounds that the most optimistic scenario, which is now in the hands of russian decision makers, is this. we weighed out to you, premium cancer, offensive papers out without tangible results. then we wait out, feel presidential elections in the states because we have all the time in the world . but the democracy is always chained to the electoral cycle. and then the receiver will probably step forward and save mother russia. that's the idea again to the best of my estimation i'm, i will not be defending it as a very realistic scenario, but i do suspect each of the favorites one. that's really what some of them are counting on the trump victory in the us mixed in the presidential elections. once you've started dreaming dream big, it will most go being hoffman the to ukraine. watson's also the time table for joining nato at the don't use summit kick can cannot,

cannot strongly estimate. that's, that's, these are middleton matters outside of the field of my explosives. right? that's what the, what i now is that they're watching this very closely and by no, it's not from some sort of inside their sources bought from their opened declaration that talking very much about it. so we can safely say that the eyes of moscow are now all in villainous, by the way, good time to do something in russia. maybe when the ios, our only stern del square, how long has proved to him got to put that right to be reduced to, to re establish control. let's try to imagine this uh, best case scenario. suppose it all comes to content with terms of achieves nothing . um villainous sam, its as with some sort of ab to declaration, the trump williams, the presidential elections in 2024. and the president's put him

a wins um presidential elections emissions within $24.00 and no protests or after the elections. because the danger of all sorts of during the elections is not losing them, but um, encountering uh, public dissatisfaction cost to the results of being published. i can bellows in 2020. suppose all this happens. the conflict is frozen on the korea model, which is now is that your favorites with russian public speakers and them, the regime has the time to re adjust it's logistical chains to for their revamp. it's relations with both china and india to isolate itself informational, leap from the global internet. and then, well, yes, it comes to bye for such time as the president has physically as, as a person and them to try to re arrange matters once he is no longer among the group

of leads more or less of the same people who are now the holders of the russian federation of the shareholders of this uh, great and partially successful commercial enterprise. so this is the best case scenario. it is not an impossible one. your company in the showman. very good to talk to you. thanks very much indeed for your time. thank you. thank you. the the, the

interest global economy, our portfolio dw, business b on. here's a closer look at the project. our mission. to analyze the

flight for market dominance. east, this is west with dw business beyond the b w's crime fighters. the car back effort goes most successful in radio drama series continues this season. the stories focus on hate speech, cholera, prevention and sustainable charcoal production. all episodes are available online. and of course, you can share and discuss on the w africa's facebook page and other social media platforms. and fighters to noon now dw 416 docs we in fact, every day, the world caution, a side effects. as far as the receiving worldwide work for free part of our timeline, because we can take the different w call. the world,

unpack all your info is in all the input w story. now onto the news of the children's food. the food can be listening before mary's. we had a lot of the drop out of this food because the way they do nothing when it comes from home. that could have easily been us. any one of the

this is data we news, like from berlin with an eye on russia. joe, mike makes a show of solidarity with nordic nation, the us president hills, nato unity and praises. finland succession to the alliance that talks with nordic leaders and health thinking will bring you their joint press conference layer. this our la.