to say what's not, what makes the demons do just been loved about anything except for away from the spot. i'm not even allowed to go to my own car and everyone with later holes and every single day stuff getting you ready to meet. the gentleman can join me, right? just do it on dw. how role did you have any promotion really go in his wagner uprising? has russia seemed the last of him, but it looks like the gardens balls skills and his people are still important for which in addition, several heiress, for instance, in alpharetta. my guess this week on complex own is russian investigative journalist and security services expert andrea, so that tough is added to our website tracts. the russian intelligence services will put in purch the system which is a really good ad conduct to reprocess, especially against his own people. who have several s as the people in jail, they have ministers,

sends out governance sends out how long can put and hold on to power. andrea, so that tough. welcome to complex down. thank you for having me. you are in contact with whistle blowers and the russian security services. why did per goes and really stop his march toward moscow while, because it was never about trying to take power and to take moscow, it was about red negotiation and his deal with boots and as a minister of defense. and when he understood that, he miscalculate that he wanted to still to get some figure out the best situation. so his son, his columns to must scout, but it was most of that to apply for a time when find that he got what you wanted or this what he could get to all of the situation. his stuff. nevertheless, he got quite far and it's being called the most dramatic challenge to pollutants authorities since he came to power 23 years ago is promotion. still a threat to putting things the biggest? uh, the biggest bro,

a fraud is not big goes into said bothered racks. and that was an army and opposite russian security services. everybody understood that big wars and while he might be extremely adventurous, yes, he has a lot of people on the, he's come on several files and people bobs, xerox, and that was the army is what matters now and give us the fact that nobody wanted to stop recording and the security services that people have put in charge of providing the political stability for which is fred gym did absolutely nothing as a f as be uh, local office central stuff on don't. does barty k themselves and the headquarters that send a very warning signal to puts and then to moscow that it's not all okay and these people who are in charge of well protected him actually doing nothing. nevertheless, the kremlin has been trying to dismiss the uprising, calling it minor trouble. in contrast, you have the use top diplomat warning,

but prudent has lost the monopoly of force and an unstable rush. it becomes a risk. how serious do you see the uprising and how fragile is the russian state? again, i think the problem is not the only bit pre goes on, hey, is uh, an extremely uh, interesting conduct uh bought his, uh, the options are limits. he doesn't have any uh, law public support provided by other members selves. there are some that leads for instance, and ottoman didn't support hamilton. they bought several things to be happened during the visit. prize and rags assumed a warning, for instance, fizz. um now infamous of is yeah. a wow. big goal is to sit in together verify depth to me to self defense. yes. cor, of the so is it that you had those rough minutes for intelligence? alex, save and a shave or loss. a bod. xyzzy off taking all gates and actually show you're going to rush them off. well, that's because i'm such

a shocking for me and i immediately a contact with my source, i sense of russian security to services and special forces and ask them what do they think? and they bought the idea of that you have to tell us how those there are some boots for intelligence. uh, basically saying, while you can have them, if you want. uh, and my people said, wow, actually i like say it was right. and i think that was even more worth some 4 points. and because in this case you have the most capable of madison's russian, middle tray and russian security services, publicly questionnaire and uh, submitted through their say. given all of that, what you've just highlighted there, how much support do you think from corrosion might have had covertly from inside of the security service? it is the military, the leads because i mean, it appeared that his human, his wagner mercenaries that they meant no resistance. yes, absolutely. the once again, i just wanted to stress as a f, as be decided to do absolutely nothing. and they had and they control online. some

like why did they fail to stop getting promotion? is what wagner uprising earlier? why was the biggest uh, i think the answer is that separate goes on is, is it kind of, maverick, he's not part of the system. so for the system, for the russian system, for intelligence security, 10 minutes, restructures, that's where the difficult to understand his place and position. everybody understands that it's all about putting precaution personal connection. and the problem is, nobody knows, for instance, what is this connection? as we speak, so maybe it's really bad, maybe is getting better, maybe it's getting worse. so we don't now the general social, they didn't know at the moment, those uprising what might be that connection. and they just decided to wait and see . you highlighted one particular point in your previous writing, um the fact that the security service in particular, in moscow, they called on wagner fighters to go and arrest your guinea per goes in their own

leader. and this is especially extraordinary because the speeds, military counter intelligence, operatives are within wagner's ranks. how are you seeing this? because this is their job, isn't it isn't, isn't it a huge break and loyalty to the kremlin? how would this be being viewed right now by putting himself as a really good question because of this office and for people like constable outside their selves. the system always acts as be off cost. it looks like a complete file. these people that put that to water into the kremlin, involved the problems which might come up out of, of the walk in a group as that was a primary drop. right? uh, and as i said is b is nothing they bought to impressions, it's about prevention. this kind of thing stuff happened and so they felt that this up, so it's like they're about the same times. a problem this puts in is that he is to some extent parts of the system. just remember that he is a trained kids,

you'd be officer and in the similar circumstances. so 2 years ago and that's and that's 1. 1 is a kid you be in some wild people as a parent and they're all wanted to stage included, taught and topple. gorbachev, most of the ranks uh inside of the kitchen being decided to do exactly the same to wait and see, puts in did absolutely nothing. his friends, people he now respects and who on now is a i'll on, is a cute positions and as a russian security services the all the, the same be absolutely nothing, nothing and not send that to one. so you'll have this strange, emotional thing, shape and all false statement that actually when something really big is happening is not up. there's a security services to decide when to opt, which is up, so that uh, concept protective uh, buttoned up as of, as they have it. up senior pentagon officials have highlighted that the uprising

highlights poor coordination between the military and other security services. can you give us a window into how deep the connections are, for example, between the military rushes security services and wagner in particular? well, 1st of all, i'm, i do not completely agree with this assessment. just remember that as of paid time off is uprising. russian army kept fighting that ukraine. young comprehensive veteran has no collapse of follows. the russian forces as a bottle filled. so the only thing they failed to face and the option to deal with was this particular mutant in offering garzon. and here you have all the problems. belarus has lucas jenko said that he ultimately broke, or the deal that sa precaution has wagner force has a band in their march toward moscow. is lucas shank over 2000000 humiliating fulton, or did he save him? well, i think, oh, the whole, think about bill every sound. look,

i think i participation of cause made puts and look. it's to me a week. just remember that for many, many years, which it was familiar with things that idea and met can ed sacrifice the idea of national southern see that was such a big thing that you can ball just to find all kinds of pressure on this. if you want to while to promote this thing, and that is why they got those refreshments in our country because it is a wake off national, southern, and mile one because a real problem puts in got 2 kids a real problem. while he left his mind to popped up, uh, alexander walker, son gotta go fix his internal program. so it does with look for pollution. really good. lucas ankle also saying that promotion is now in bella roost. although there's been no independent confirmation. he also hasn't been heard for from and more than a week. what do you think is happening to per goshen is the soul lives? well, it's difficult to say, but i think he's still very much alive. uh, 1st of all, what as well as his grades,

the situation is really difficult to understand what is going on. bob's better of several interesting science plus default, the whole think about criminal charges. so it's changing, but as far as i guess, and that's sort of as far as everybody got it as a criminal charges find that adult, which is a big thing because one puts in and to come in, wants to expel somebody for real. well, you have the criminal charges, it gets to be a spouse. and for instance, in my case, i'm a wanted man in russia and i have criminal charges against me. so if i ever get back to the county, i am facing up to 10 years in prison, and that is a guarantee i was never getting back. but footprint garzon decided to make an exception, so that has no criminal charges. so legally speaking, but as nothing to prevent him from getting back to the same pitch as a boat to moscow to that now it's just safe at the spots of his business and pot for goes. you know, i mean he's, he's been promised this immunity. we have to say um, but he got richard who was as close ties to put in now put in his actually

mentioned that the finances of precautions lucrative catering firm will be investigated. how do you see that? is this a signal that he could actually be prosecuted for financial crimes. busy or, you know, was put in just trying to take them down a notch. i think it's about some parts of precautions, business, business and bar. because of course it, there's some companies that are assigned. they've been that for years, but they had no chance. now they got to as john's so that trying to win this. so contracts provided by the government times administer of defense. mothers looks like precautions, ball skills, and his people are still important for puts in addition in several areas, for instance, in africa. and it looks like uh you come and doesn't want to completely dis, bond walk now. and was that activation say in the middle standing africa progression had been railing against the top military brass for months. ultimately, he said that the kremlin state of reasoning behind the war in ukraine was false.

why did prudent allow the threat posed by promotion to fester for so long? well, pushing on the stands that is very clear that even in most are of unpopular wars could produce very popular generals. and these generals, at some moment my become a political fact that happens many times in russian history. pushing understands that he understands that he cannot do that to get out. so he wanted to have some counts of balance to that. some sort of maverick from might expose the problems in submitted tray and to peep middle trade general's off balance. that's exactly what was the role of precaution for all of these months. let's talk about the wagner mercenary curriculum. what happens to them next? they've been thrown into disarray. the fight for control is said to have just begun . lucas tango has invited mercenaries to relocate to in

a band into military base in the country. there are some reports of new satellite images appearing to show tents being set up in, in belarus, to that effect is that their best offer to go to bella roost. and are they likely to take it? well i think that that some moments put in just decided to relocate robin or to save his public image as someone who is still on uh in control of the situation. and then, because it will suck you relate and to have, well, 5, the soldiers, martian of the, they're all, it's in russia. so he decided to really catch him, him to bellows. but that's cause, i mean, wagner has no other customers by the russian stage billow royce. is very much penetrated by a bunch of russians. uh so it's not like he was expelled to some independent country and out of the free shop law. scott, that's not true. the us says that right now, they're continuing to see some elements of the wagner group in russian occupied territory. and ukraine. ukrainian intelligence says that wagner will not fight in

ukraine any more. do you think that wagner in ukraine will go willingly. uh uh, it's about an interesting question that we have some reports uh recently actually today that uh, some wagner about offices. they use it as the statements that they stopped recruiting people. uh right now for fonts and then ukraine bots um the language to be used as the biggest, as like we have stuff in for now. so maybe the outpatient for some of the office over to full. maybe they would get would be given then you name. so, but i think somebody minutes of this group, the fonts and as they did before, let's talk a little bit more about how russians are viewing all of this ukranian presidents. the landscape says that moscow has been suffering full scale weakness. he calls it for goes and has apparently tapped into the view that putting is a, is a corrupt system where the ruling lead had been emerging themselves and are more interested in pleasing, put,

and then doing what is right for national interest to ordinary people. that's a message which seems to have resonated. how high is the dissatisfaction with bruton and food newsom while exhibited tre. all the re is a clear spinning sized russian generals as old days on the exterior competence. and it's a, it's a very interesting in our own legal situation because it is right now that the russian army is gave some vision you found confidence in themselves because actually is, are you crazy on the fence if it's extremely slow, all that is the perception of the russian dollar is not my perception, but that's not how they sees a situation. they base fear. it's that it could be a really big know of a see, it's not that big and not back horrible. uh, so that gets in this sense alpha.