the it was recaptured. 6 months later the occupation was hard. how can life go on after all the terror? not everyone can do or the fear we felt every day. when russia comes start to august 25th on dw. how role did give guinea for goshen really go? and his wagner uprising has russia seemed the last of him. but it looks like, regardless both skills and his people are still important for which in addition, several areas, for instance, enough for that my guess this week on complex own is russian investigative journalist and security services expert. andre still got off his audit and to our website tracks the russian intelligent services will prove and purchased the system, which is a really good ad conduct to reprocess, especially against his own people who have several s. as the people in general that have ministers sends out,

governance sends out how long can put and hold on to power 100. so that tough welcome to complex down. thank you for having me. you are in contact with whistle blowers in the russian security services. why did per goes and really stop his march toward moscow while, because it was never about trying to take power. and to take moscow, it was about red negotiation. his deal with boots and as a minister of defense and the ones you understood that he miscalculate that he wanted to still to gets some figure out the best situation. so his son just columns to most scout, but it was mostly to apply for a time when find that he got what you wanted or this what he could get out of the situation. his stuff. nevertheless, he got quite far and it's being called the most dramatic challenge to put into the authorities since he came to power 23 years ago. is promotions still a threat to putting things? the biggest, uh, the biggest pro friday's not goes into said bob,

xerox. and that was an army. and that was the russian security services. everybody understood that it was on, while he might be extremely adventurous. yes, he has a lot of people on the, his come on several files and people bobs, xerox, and that was the army is what matters now and give us the fact that nobody wanted to stop recording and the security services, the people who put the in charge of providing the political submitted to follow up, which is fred gym did absolutely nothing as a f, as be uh, local office central stuff on the on does party candidates themselves. and that headquarters does that sound, a very warding signal to puts an end to moscow. bad, it's not all okay and these people who are in charge of well protected him actually doing nothing. nevertheless, the kremlin has been trying to dismiss the uprising, calling it minor trouble. in contrast, you have the use top people, not warning, but prudent, has lost the monopoly of force and an unstable rush. it becomes

a risk. how serious do you see the uprising and how fragile is the russian state? again, i think that problem is not the only way for goes on hey, is uh, an extremely interesting conduct uh bought his uh, the options are limits. he doesn't have any uh, law public support provided by other members selves. there are some that leads, for instance, and ottoman didn't support hamilton. they bought several things to be happened during visit prize. and reg assumed a warning, for instance, fis, um, now infamous of is, yeah. wow, big wars is sticking together. verify depth to me. to self defense, you have core of the soul. zip. it's a has of the rough middle between citizens, alex save and a shaving loft. a bod xyzzy off taking all gates and actually show you're going to rush them off. well that's because upset the shock informed me and i immediately

contact with my source, a sense of rush and security to services and special forces and asked them what do they think? and they bought. the idea of that you have is if those had those, there are some boots for intelligence. uh, basically saying while you can have them, if you want. uh, and my people said, wow, actually i like say it was right. and i think that was even more worse on foot points. and because in this case you have the most capable element, sense of russian middle tray and russian security services, publicly questionnaire and uh, submitted through their site. given all of that, what you've just highlighted there, how much support do you think from corrosion might have had covertly from inside of the security service? it is the military, the leads because i mean it, it appeared that his human, his wagner mercenaries that they met no resistance. uh yes, absolutely. the once again, i just want to stress as a f, as be decided to do the opposite of to nothing. and they had and they control

online some right? why did they fail to stop? you have any promotion? is what wagner uprising earlier? why was the biggest uh, i think the answer is that separate goes on is, is it kind of, maverick, he's not part of the system. so for the system, for the russian system of intelligence, security, 10 minutes restructure as that's where the difficult on this done his place and position. everybody understands that it's all about puts into goals and personal connection. and the problem is nobody knows, for instance, uh, what is this connect soon as we speak. so maybe it's really bad, maybe is getting better, maybe is getting worse. so we don't now the general social, they didn't know at the moment that was uprising. what might be that connection? and they just decided to wait and see. you highlighted one particular point in your previous writing, um the fact that the security service in particular, in moscow, they called on wagner fighters to go and arrest your guinea per goes in their own

leader. and this is especially extraordinary because the speeds, military counter intelligence, operatives are within wagner's ranks. how are you seeing this? because this is their job, isn't it isn't, isn't it a huge break and loyalty to the kremlin? how would this be being viewed right now by putting himself as a really good question? because i was this office for people icons from outside their selves. the system of the f is be off cost. it looks like a complete file of these people that put that to water into cumberland involved the problems which might come up out of, of the walk in a group as that was a primary drop. right? uh, and as i says be, is not only about to impressions. that's about prevention risk. i'm not saying stuff happened. and so they felt that there's upsets clear about the same times. a problem this puts in is that he is to some extent parts of the system. just remember that he is a trained kids, you'd be officer and in the similar circumstances. so 2 years ago and that's and

that's 11, as a kid you be in some wild people as a parent and they're all wanted to stage occluded, taught and topple gorbachev. most of the ranks uh inside of the kitchen being decided to do exactly the same to wait and see. pushing did absolutely nothing. his friends, people, he now respects and who on now is a i'll on is a key positions. and as the russian security services, the all the, the same be absolutely nothing, nothing and not to not to one. so you'll have this strange emotional thing, shape and all false statement that actually when something really big is happening is not up. there's the security services to decide when to ok, which is up. so the concept inductive but never as of as they have it. a senior pentagon officials have highlighted that the uprising highlights poor

coordination between the military and other security services. and can you give us a window into how deep the connections are, for example, between the military rushes security services and wagner in particular. well, 1st of all, i'm, i do not completely agree with this assessment. just remember that as a paid time off is a prize and the russian army kept finding that you're brand new and comprehensive, that it was no collapse of all is the russian forces as a buckle sold. so the only thing save face to face and the auction to deal with was this particular mutant in offering garzon. and here you have all the problems. beller is lucas jenko said that he ultimately broke, or the deal that sa precaution has wagner force has a band and they're march toward moscow. is lucas shank over 2000000 humiliating fulton. or did he save him? well, i think, oh, the whole think about bell, are we sound? look, i think our participation of cause made puts in locus to me

a week. just remember that for many, many years, which it was familiar with, things that idea and met can it sacrifice the idea of national southern see that was such a big thing that you can ball just to find all kinds of pressure on this. if you want to, well to promote this thing and that is why they got those refreshments in our country because it is a wake off national southern sit and my all one because a real problem puts in got 2 kids a real problem. while he left his mind a popped up uh, alexander walker. son gotta go fix his internal program. so it does look for pollution. really good. lucas angle also saying that promotion is now in bella roost. although there's been no independent confirmation. he also hasn't been heard for it from in more than a week. what do you think is happening to per goshen is the soul lives? well, it's difficult to say, but i think he is still very much alive for us to fall. what is? well, in his grades,

the situation is really difficult to understand what is going on bob's better of several interesting science stuff, the fault, the whole, think about criminal charges. so it's changing. but as far as i guess on the side as far as that, everybody got it as a criminal charges fund that adult, which is a big thing because one puts in and to come in, wants to expel somebody for real. well, you have the criminal charges, it gets to be a spouse. and for instance, in my case, i'm a wanted man in russia and i have criminal charges against me. so if i ever get back to the county, i am facing up to 10 years in prison, and that is a guarantee i was never getting back. but for precaution, they decided to make an exception so that it was no criminal charges. so legally speaking, but as nothing to prevent him from getting back to the same pitch as a boat to moscow to that now, to save this spots of his business and pot for goes, you know, i mean he's, he's been promised this immunity. we have to say um, but he got richard who is this close ties to food now put in his actually mentioned

that the finances of precautions lucrative catering firm will be investigated. how do you see that? is this a signal that he could actually be prosecuted for financial crimes. busy or, you know, was put in just trying to take them down a notch. i think it's about some parts of precautions, business, business and bar. because of course it, there's some companies that are assigned. they've been that we years spot. they had no chance. now they got to his chance so that trying to win this, so contracts provided by the government times administer of defense. mothers looks like regardless ball skills and his people still important for puts in addition, several areas for instance in africa. and it looks like uh to come in does one to completely does bond walk now and was that activation say in the middle san africa progression had been railing against the top military brass for months. ultimately, he said that the kremlin state of reasoning behind the war in ukraine was false.

why did prudent allow the threat posed by promotion to fester for so long? well, pushing on the stands that's very clear that even in most of unpopular wars could produce very popular generals. and these generals, at some moment my become a political fact that happens many times to the russian history. pushing understands that he understands fights. he cannot let to go. so he wanted to have some accounts of balance to that, some sort of maverick from my exposure programs in submitted tray and to peep, mid trade generals off balance. that's exactly what was the role of precaution for all of these months. let's talk about the wagner and their scenary. griffin. what happens to them next? they've been thrown into disarray. the fight for control is said to have just begun . lucas shinkel has invited mercenaries to relocate to in

a band into military base in the country. there are some reports of new satellite images appearing to show tents being set up and enveloped her as to that effect. isn't that their best offer to go to bella roost? and are they likely to take it? well, i think read that some moments which and just decided to relocate robin or to save his public image as someone who is still on uh in control of the situation and, and because it'll suck, simulates and to have well, by the soldiers martian of the they're all it's in russia, so he decided to really catch him, him to the lowest cost. i mean, wagner has no other customers by the russian stage. billow royce is very much penetrated by a bunch of russians. uh so it's not like he was expelled to some independent country. and although for each other, most guy that's not to the us as a right now, they're continuing to see some elements of the wagner group in russian occupied territory. and ukraine. ukrainian intelligence says that wagner will not fight in

ukraine anymore. do you think that wagner in ukraine will go willingly? it's about an interesting question that we have some reports written today. actually today that so was about office to say is it is the statements as a stop recruiting people uh right now for fonts and then ukraine bots um the language to be used as their and because it's like we have stuff in for now. so maybe the outpatient, for some of the office over to full, may be able to get would be given a new name. so, but i think somebody minutes of this group, the fonts and as they did before, let's talk a little bit more about how russians are viewing all of this ukranian presidents. the landscape says that moscow has been suffering full scale weakness. he calls it for goshen. has apparently tapped into the view that kootenays and is a corrupt system where the ruling, the lead had been emerging themselves and are more interested in pleasing food and

then doing what is right for national interest to ordinary people. that that's the message which seems to have resonated how high is the dissatisfaction with putin and food newsom as well. uh, in the middle of the tray. uh, the rear is a clear uh, spinning sides russian generals as old as on not extremely competent. and it's a, it's a very interesting in our wonderful situation because it is right now that the russian army is the case of his new found confidence in themselves. because actually is, are you crazy on the fence or physics seem to slow all that is the perception of the russian army is not my perception, but that's not how they sees a situation they, they fear that it could be a really big know of a c it's not that big and not back horrible. uh, so that gets in this sense alpha uh, that sound, not actually bad, bad. uh, at the same time, but keep layman's age and you're all saying that that's why they supported to some

extent of silence or they may be p gordon's criticism because they share the same feeling. but it does move that, that ready to just don't think about it. so they still got approval and the sit in class, we need to find visible federal for very long time. is that, but here's how the, the head of the c, i a is framing the situation. he says that this affection with the world will continue to not away at the russian leadership and that it creates a once in a generation opportunity for the c. i a to recruit spies in russia. you are very familiar with the security services. do you think that the c i will find fertile ground for recruitment as well? i think rather, we as you know, there's a lot of wishful thinking. yeah. we're trying to identify every sign of, of descent as a, as a signal that the system will inevitably collapse. and i know as a, in the model for several months, i would be extremely,

i would be more cautious to be honest. it's not likely that lots of people accepted xyzzy. i was a war includes as a russian, the lights pushing those who are you good at conducting repressions, especially against his own people. we have several s as the people in general that have ministers in jail governance in jail. so it is a big thing for the russian society. and lots of people on sale is found to stand that. that's actually there is no way for them but to stay and to stay low to put in. so i would, i would say that that posts. yeah, it's might end up as soon as see uh, but i would be cautious also, the program is bad to say which with the best people find that it was a chance for the factions. and right now for the russian, the lives because a folder restrictions. so for travel, i'm in the truck with easy to, to make it through europe. all it isn't that the stays, the chances that the same people as a russian, that is what saying ok, maybe now i stopped spines. was i many concerns about forgive, but give me a chance to,

to move on to the events and that just stays that quite same quote. and since the uprising he has been seeming to be bent on projecting normalcy and stability, we've seen him ramping on public appearances. and the week after the uprising, he gave a number of national addresses for training the rebellion. as a heroic episode, he travelled to the southern region of dag of san where he slipped local cognac. he spoke about growing regional tourism. he even attended a technology fair in moscow. what a russians make of that, or are they buying it? well, no, not all of them off gums. so especially in big stages bogged and proven says you have lots of people who are still very supportive of boats and they accept as a russian propaganda adoption of the of. and so that puts in my and, or acid to avoid blood shit on to some extent you did actually have that. it was no real big launched it. uh, except for this uh, unfortunate pilots. and it is appropriate for the middle of tray,

not for that population. provision, i mean his rants, they really offer this alternative to the war propaganda. for many russians in unvarnished glimpse from the front lines you highlighted the useless and unjustified losses. can russians really go back to regularly scheduled programming? well, that's a good question, but i think what because we wanted to do, he wanted to become some sort of uh uh you will press it for, says russian society, all we have is a license 2 times the russian. it leads to mobilize the rest of society, which and does one side. he still thinks that it's possible to win the visible def file, the total mobilization. but we don't know what might happen if say you agree on the offensive goes with the success a fall. we just don't know that might change the situation and if that changes, they might be new space and you room for pure doors and then people are, can,

let's talk about prudent for us to shore up his power. first of all is a crack down under way. as that is one thing which is clear. uh, also it gives the services as army as a national gallery. they loan, is it less than that? why do you have a program? is it a sort of circle of pollution? is it better not to interfere? and i think it is a very bad signal for points and because, well what if tomorrow some of the guys say could do it? of all someone, all is the rest of the security council. now come opposite the russian television and say, wow, i'll wasn't sure why the manager will go to hell and we need to replace, give someone that would be a huge confusion by this class right now. you, if you look at the overall situation, though, russia's most senior generals, they, they've dropped out of view since the uprising. i'm thinking about general ross him off. he's reporting not appeared in public. he's of course, in charge of the war effort and ukraine. the kremlin has also been deflecting

questions about the whereabouts of general sort of the can, who is seen as aligned with precaution and believe to be detained. what do you think is happening to them? a while it's really difficult to understand. i've been checking the information about sort of a can for all these days. it looks like sort of course i did. it was sent to prison . we kind of confirmed them, but he said it seems that he was at least until a gate as and it's quite interesting vibes we are here and visit rumors. it bows and middle trojan are also about not about security services, which is a very interesting thing. while you have these people, i'm is f as b as a national guard, all of the security services pulled in charge of putting his personal security it, and political stability. it is yet all of the questions that come to has it's all about submitted track. how much impact do you think these events of the past weeks are going to have on the war and ukraine? um, it's

a good question because the one hand we see is that walking our didn't participate directly, at least in big numbers and, and trying to selves you praying and contra offensive. it is a jump for the regular russian army. while at the same time walk, there is still a very capable force and they have his reputation ends. there are some miller trait, yet there is new confusion. now because of the, obviously i'm using, it stays by longer because of this policy who upheld full up so that the nothing well put us of course, enough of as was about to be spiel of his pilots were killed because of a on another the russian heroes but it was a middle track of hearing is that, that it would be no justice for the fall of his policy. and that samuel is, nobody would be prosecuted for keeping this, this policy and that credit and you confusion, it means that it has a re, regular army still finds in the bottle failed. you have a number of product miniature companies as an ottoman now is looking at risk

product mutual competitors. we have some suspicion because these guys overs approved frederick and kill russian soldiers and they can get away the fed. so these kind of confusing in the long scholar my sites and situations about the felt the ukrainian counter offensive has, has not yet achieved significant success, according to nato's top commander in europe. do you think that now there is more pressure on putting to end the war? no, i don't think so. i think what, pushing on the stance is, uh uh very it was such a big investment in inside. yeah, of your brand new encounter offensive. uh, wallace was a big thing for, for that you brand new and governments for as are you bringing latest ship. it was a big thing from nature for the west. in russia, it was played as a sign that the russian army well behaved at the and actually it was not extremely uh, great uh, is the beginning of the war by the way,

i guess in better there is this. uh, there is a strange feeling now, especially because it's all about history on the 2nd, baltimore, and all of that. so there is these ideas shaded by man, yet, but the russian army, olga stands of war. uh, and the very bad shape bought a guest and best uh on the way and put you on this trying to capitalize on vis spelling. i'd like to ask you one last question about the uprising the wagner uprising because many are concerns that a food does fall. the concern is that a replacement leader could be worse crumbling, critical krakowski said the following week, glimpse how the regimes inevitable fall is likely to come about. and the forces that we'll seek to take over so called national patriots, led by another sog. if you look at the big picture, do you think that russia is ultimately doomed to have one thug replaced by another? after putting of all our thoughts into it might happen because as

a more visible goes, is it more as the russians decides, is, gets and used of as well. and now the, i guess it is a motional argument and save opposite will because there's so many casualties. there's so many people killed. and even the people who felt while confused about the beginning of the war. now they have visited in growl and my villas. someone gets killed by these ukrainian so why should i feel sore and bouts of all so and some, and some way the support for that was guessing all it's not big about it's, it's most stable and it means that the hostess of the society projection itself does idea that while it's going to be with a long war and in the long war, you get people like general sand as why, while using the very top language a more and more and more popular pop law. and at some moment they might get some miles from position in depaula. yeah, that's true. and how long do you think putting has while i think is about talking

about years under so that definitely have to leave it there. thank you so much for joining us on conflicts on a. thank you. the

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the the this is dw news life in berlin, hopes or in ukraine for f. 16 finder. catch the us gibbs. it's approval for denmark in the netherlands to transfer f sixteens to key to help fight off rushes invasion . but it could be next year before a single plane takes off. also coming up. leaders of the us, japan and south korea come together for their historic 1st 3 way summit. joe biden wants the former enemies to cooperate, to come back 3.