the immediate in cultures around the world, people learned to classify small handful of animals with edible and all the rest of the classify as discussing the w series about our complex relationship with them and also the debate watch. now on youtube. d. w documentary the never before, and has a chinese head of state, canceled the g 20 meetings. the forum for the most important industrialized and emerging countries, seating thing is now sending his premier lead to new delhi. this will most likely be seen as an affront by host moody, yet sea and body certainly pursue coming to entrance against western dominance. on the other hand, they are our tribals with leadership aspirations for the global sounds. in addition, china's economy is we can, while india is catching up, enormous. so onto the point we ask india booms china codes. what does it mean for

the rest of the world? the welcome to this week to the point i'm have us and i'm glad to be joined by today's guest. i'm gonna introduce them to your vendor in phone book 8. o is the senior germany correspondent for the economist based in berlin. felix lee is a journalist, a long time corresponded in china and currently works for the specialist. german news outlet, china table. and you saw about yeah, is my colleague from dw, she's joining us from daily 12. you thank you very much for being with us. and let's cut right to the chase phoenix. i'd like to start with you. she certainly knows how symbolic it is not to attend a g 20 summit for the very 1st time. what do you make of his decision? well, officially there's no or there's no official announcements. so we do not know for

sure what the reasons why he's not attending the g 20 summit, and denny, but i think is not so much a meant against india. i mean, there are rivalries, there are disputes border disputes, but they exist that they exist already fall longer time. so i don't think this was a current reason why is not attending. if i would interpret something, uh, i think she was, she didn't, she wants to show that g. 20 is not the most important meeting anymore. and this is moment against the western countries on breaks. she attended 2 weeks ago and johannes bork, the western countries weren't a, at the break under the twenty's of the western countries are part of it. so he wants to show a little bit of so it's a little bit ment i think moment against the west, especially if it can see usa. that's a very important perspective. and yet we know that the g 20 is highly symbolic asia

. we've seen many reports on how big the g 20 summit has been promoted inside of india. how big a blow is. she's absence for the host country in india is not reacting in a way that is a blow. and i completely agree with the, the official statement that india has given me is that this has got nothing to do with india deport, administer instruction. good. and in fact, even the internship, i mean con, we have gone on record and said that in the past also, a lot of leaders have had to miss the summer because the latest reasons of clothes is the 1st time that china is missing. but of course, he's sending his representative and all the discussions, all the meetings will be done with it f as in data. so china is not missing, it is the leader that is missing and ready for me please, or chunk or even went on to saying that interview. that was the country's, she meant china and russia. they would know best why they are doing good. he's sick, moved towards the west. he did not name grass, he did not see us on your,

on anyone. but he did say know that this is probably china's be off showing a to do with that g during the can be all about the last because china as lisa and china was there for the bricks. china, she didn't thing has mentioned that even with the in bricks. so it does not look like it as of now that china is trying to block india when it comes to g brandy. so if it's not a blow to india, it certainly is for the platform as we heard of handling. do you agree with that assessment? and if so, how much does it affect the possibility to actually find common ground in the summit? i agree with other assessments. i will tell her that i think one of the additional reasons might be that she just feels he should not leave china at the moment. the economy isn't really poor shape. plus there's some political time all at home that we may not know about. i mean, that's certainly something going on, but you know the details are sketchy. so i think in addition to all the other reasons, i think maybe he just feels it's not

a good moment to these vision and well that to put him and she i'm missing, right? so um, in terms of finding common ground for the big challenges of all the time, i do think that makes it more difficult, right? because we have a big chunk of the representative of the word population not represent it is in some ways um i still think, you know, you can probably achieve importance at least symbolically very important things. but it's, it's not how it was meant to be. i think initially sure, and the other important aspect of this might leave the stage free for india to become the so called voice of the global south. you said, do you think this is among motors ambitions to become the bigger voice? at least in front of the west are absolutely and india and especially more the and his team. they've never shied away from saying that they want to be the big brother in the global south. in fact, as i was mentioning, the foreign minister ladies and 3, he even went on to say that uh,

in the beginning of last year read, he mentioned india that we started using the term global. so that was not being used for a very long time. and we made sure that of each of the word that there is a difference between the global north and the global south. and the global north is actually van, all the decisions are taken and global south is lagging behind. so we really went ahead and talked about it, and now the whole world is talking about that. now the rest of the countries are also thinking about the global. so. so whenever possible would be on his team, they are taking credit for everything good. that's happening and move this out and that the countries on the bill themselves are being pushed on the main stage. except there is a gigantic powerhouse on the way. the g 20 represents a whopping 85 percent of the world. it cannot make power. so you can ping didn't only turn his back on the west or joe biden, but also in a way on india's prime minister night in the moody. let's have a look at the current state of the indo chinese relations august in south africa.

the brick summit when moody and changing ping united against the domination of the west. but in the global south, each lays claim to the status of economic superpower. a rivalry with historic groups. for decades, china and india have been fighting over territory in the himalayas. cheese the latest provocation, a map that declares indian claim territory as the chinese to well got to deal with are it's harry and leader of the world's 2nd largest economy has been expanding chinese dominance. we use in the indian ocean to his instrument of power. the belgian road initiative now rendered moody. the hen do a nationalist prime minister of the wealth, largest democracy, deals ruthlessly with political opponents and minorities the steering his country steeply upwards. there's no other place where the economy is growing as false as in india, most recently overtaking china, for 5 quotes, as in

a row. by the end of the decade, india could become the world's 3rd largest economy, with a population that is larger and younger than china's mode is the latest try. and india is supposed to move, landing, bringing it in line with china, is the balance of how is shifting in india's favor. and i'm going to throw that question directly to you vendor lean visit shifting in favor of india. or i, i do think that's a re balancing of paula. uh, mainly, uh, all of a sudden in big part because the chinese economy is, is, it's not in good shape. and i don't think any, i don't think it's going to recover any time soon. use unemployment is very high, that's, that's the big property price and the properties like this. so important to try and i think it's responsible for a quarter of ttp. an employee is you know, millions of people. so that's certainly, you know,

that one economic power waning west india is actually doing really well. so in that sense, that's certainly a re balancing of power. politically india. so democracy will be at an in public one. that is a democracy west. china isn't. so again, india has an advantage so absolutely, i do think that's a re balancing of power between those 2 incredibly important countries. and how do you think that is perceived from the other side to the next group in china seas? india is a big level of threat, maybe even not so much, not at least not yet. uh, because uh, from the size of the economy. even though india has surpassed on population. but on the size of the economy, china is still so much bigger than india and the chinese know it. and i totally agree trying to at the moment, has huge economy problems and they will not disappear very soon. what's new about china so far?

until recently, the economy grows was the top number 11 priority on everything. we didn't know much about how product to work in china, but at least we could somehow trust that the economy growth is very important target. um, this has changed and she didn't think. and so somehow it is a little bit of also taken into account to to have less growth in china at the moment. decide the problem was a property, a, a bubble of because of the china, of course is also suffering from the sanctions by the u. s. a tech technology sanctions. and this is taken into account china. we are talking about the listing, the coupling from china in europe, china is already doing it. they want to d couple on especially they want to get less dependent on the west and technologies . and on the other hand, they, uh, and that means for

a before then the for short time, this will reduce the economy grows because the trying to develop their own technology. and this of course means uh for the meantime that it might towards the economy. but finish when you talk about the technology specifically, it has also banned different companies from china operating in their country. uh, how do you think that plays into the equation? it's uh not on the, on the again, not yet. i would say at least not on the top 10 again, not as a subject, i think at the moment it is also not seen as a main competitor, not yet, maybe in the future time. the main problem in china, it has at the moment to deal, especially with the u. s. a. treat uh war and all of this technology sanctions, it'd be due to each other. so this is at the moment, the bigger the topic of the big issue in china. let's shift the perspective to

india because from what we're hearing, china does not really seem to see india as a big threat. but sometimes at least i have the perception that the rhetoric and india could be a little bit different. talk us through how the perception is in the country in this image of india as a rising superpower, maybe a good driving silva, bower. and the next biggest thing that is something that is being sold a lot here and that has also got to do with the elections that are coming up next year. and in fact, hosting g 20 in day me, which is a very difficult task in a city such as dv. that is also a sign that the multi government wanted to give to the people here that if we can do this and we can manage those and me and my government, we can actually, if they can get to places. so that is the feelings right now. and in there's also talking about uh, becoming the code most important um economy. in the next few years,

we're talking about 2027 already. and although there are a lot of studies that show that even if you're about to just go as state to school, it will stay diseased and i'm with the, by the end of the decade. but i'm going to send that engine. what do you make sure that he picks the credit whenever possible? because as i said, it's election next year and who would not want a big brownie points when it's possible. and as far as the dr. literally with china is concerned use that is a very strong sentiment about driving to be with china. and when he keeps pushing about this 5, treat any going to me that be able to reach the po to position 5 trillion. the difference between india and china is still going to be huge because by the time in their ages, 5 trimming, china would have cross $25.00 trillion. so that's still a major difference in the i would have the opportunity to see that the right behind us on china, but here it is still being behind us in china. so um,

as far as the feeling is concerned, yes it's there, but um, it is not going to stand out in the china. maybe that's also a reason bundling that. i wanted to ask you here in the west at least up. there is not this rhetoric of india being a big threat as we often hear with china. do you think that's because of the same reason that they're not really you can download to your vehicle and i, i don't, i mean i can see if it makes this point that the time that doesn't proceed in your video spread. but, but, but i do think that supervisory and, and, and your colleague and that, he mentioned that and i'm, and i do think china is taking this rival seriously. ok. that's still a very different sort of proportion, but in, yeah, has the advantage of it's not, it doesn't have this very complex, hostile relationship with america. right? america wants to trace with india. it doesn't really want to trade with china.

that's another huge advantage. india has at the movement, i mean, they may think they, they could spa, that's the relatively quick relationship. but i mean, there are lots the india has at the moment, quite a lot of things going full for the country. and however, we were talking about that when we talk about china, we talk very differently about india in many parts of the world. do you think there's sort of a double standard taking into consideration that not into ammonia is also being criticized in many respects. we just saw it in the piece of the way the minorities are treated as a way political opponents are treated. is there a double standard in europe and no, it's because there is a huge difference. i mean, uh yes, uh there are also human rights problems in your have, but india is a functioning democracy in china. is not an even worse. it we. so if i called the one party dictatorship, we must say now it's a one person dictatorship. so it's a pure dictatorship, it has become

a pure dictatorship under siege in pink. and we sort of hope in the last 30 years that, of course, china is still a far town run by the communist party. but there was this whole and there were good reason for this whole that will, china will also be more politically, be more open and more liberal liberal. but this has totally, this whole pest vanished under siege. and pink shooting ping has turned even the communist part of the on the, into a one person leadership. and this is a huge difference despite all of all the democratic problems in yes, but this is a huge difference from india. and it's not the only problem. there certainly is. talk of the chinese downfall china had shown the world how it is able to achieve record after record. and you cannot make performance. but those times seem long gone. and problems are taking over young, highly qualified,

but jump less the case for $1.00 and $5.00 people under the age of $24.00, living in china, the records the figure was published last spring, will start to use heston suspended release of the month least the test stakes claiming they want to optimize the methodology. many chinese have lost the last for consumption. all they can do is look on this, the homes, they saved up for uncompleted prophets. he developed his art guessing into financial difficulties. the largest chinese property group ever ground has the highest net world wide over $300000000.00. the communist policy doesn't appear to be delivering on its promise of growth and prosperity. ex thoughts in july we're down 14.5 percent on the year before inputs down 12.4 percent measured in us dollars. china is official growth targets of 5 percent by the end of 2023 savings on feasible head of state g is calling on people to

exercise historic patience promotion the virtue of hardship. details. young people to each business is the telling these economic miracle grinding to a halt. and i'm trying that question to you. felix is planning to yes, the problems. i huge the property crisis, the property bubble has 1st and this will take at least one decatur uh, to uh, to get over this. and it's also connected with a, another huge problem. china has the demographic problem. we know this because it's a one child policy. uh, this will also hurt chinese economy, but we shouldn't under estimate how powerful the chinese government also economy the and financially is so uh yes, china has this huge economy problem. but a china has also a lot of power to fight this. so i don't know if you can call it the hope or

something that will china will become more modest more uh again, the maybe yeah i, i don't share this whole because the china has become such a powerful economy. it will be able to, china will be able to deal with at least the biggest problems trying to have stan, i just pick up on that. if you one mentioned that this one is also by interest and that she's priority is not the economy anymore. it's is foreign policy emissions. i'm, you know, if he has big successes will proceed from the chinese point of view. because as on the front policy front, he will think, you know, that's a piece of population and maybe paper over some economic hardships which are real. i'm in particular for, for young people. i forgot the precise number but the, but the young unemployed to something like 2025 percent. i mean it's very, very high. and that's what you know, of course, terribly frustrating for, for these youngsters. yeah. that's totally fine. and set a,

china can become even more dangerous under siege in ping when the common problems are arriving, that she's becoming in foreign policy and geo politically, even more dangerous. but doesn't that go hand in hand? the economic performance and the success and foreign policy, when we talk about what this all means for the rest of the world, we have to talk about the african countries. we have to talk about latin american countries. what happens have china doesn't have that power anymore. so of course, i mean, into somebody said china can have these ground emission because it's such a powerful economy. it's over the chief duck, right? i mean, is it has risen to the 2nd biggest economy in the what, what does it mean? i mean, you know, look at the belgian road initiatives, you know, that's still going right if maybe stalling at the moment. but china is very influential in other parts of the world, an african particular, all of that still remains to so, so i'm, i'm not saying by all means you know, that, that we should, we should discount on that. but, but i still think that is india, an interesting rival that has appeared and within manifest itself,

increasing the in the next 2 years. arrival that however might not be immune to that chinese power ish. so when we talk about dependence on china, it is often set the china has the bigger power, especially with the disputes with india. what's your perception of that? but uh, that's a difficult thing to say with the china big above. there are disputes between both the countries, federal border disputes of both and despite the country, the still trading partners with each other and they can't do without each other. and uh, i agree with the most well defined a list of what they've said so far. so um, india is not going to stop trading with china. neither is china with the tools. it's those for india. and we've seen this new uh, got the map that has come up, that china has shown data trees that are disputed and they're part of china in them up an industrial concerns over there. but it can be done because it's dispute

dictated to me. and despite that, none of them have stopped the china investor talking that she just thing is coming to the 20 or not be a student and tops. and they're also not loving together against the list. they have the one inches, but they're meeting each other in issue with their meeting each other in a deep randy. so it's a strange, a modem that uh the google sold is witnessing right now. the question of course here would also be whether india is a true alternative to investments in china to trade with china, even as a lender of phoenix. what's your take on that for the rest of the work? it's always good not to focus on trying to. so much on china as a germany economy has done in the last 2 decades. so uh, in the uh, should be more on the focus. it's a would be a good thing. the problem is, china is economy has become so important, especially for the germans, and it will be very, very hard to switch to,

to other regions. and it's not that old uh, we're talking about a diversification to, to southeast asia, to latin america, to india. and it's not that these markets out, we're all waiting for folks login, siemens and b a s f to come. and they have develop also their own trade partners. so is this will be a tough one for especially for the germans because it was so focused on china. but of course a mid term, a long term. it is almost always good to have different partners and not to focus on, especially a very unstable or politically, even dangerous country as china is because they often talk about values of handling . do you think there's a true interest in actually following values when it comes to cannot make decisions and with that benefit, india, in this case um, i think sometimes seos pay it little bit lip service to these founders show in

theory there is, i mean i'm, if you'd ask them, they say yes, of course we cut deeply about human rights, but often of business and commercial considerations. preventive. if you look at the figures, germany's german businesses investment in china has not really gone down. even though you know, that's the new time the government's china strategy, the government is really encouraging german companies to diversify. but some of the biggest box companies have, i'm making huge investments in china. you mentioned p. s. s best volkswagen. you know, it's, and it's poppy because the chinese markets remains very attractive and, and does not. and of us at the movement, another obvious country that kind of replaces at least not into showtime and the longer time property. yes. but the initial time, i think it's very difficult. it's a long road ahead. we have time for one last quick question and i'd like to start with you felix. in a multi polar world. will india be one of the goals? yes, definitely. and what we have seen 2 weeks ago at the brakes is

a big turning point for us, especially for the western countries because they have, we have seen a bricks 15 years ago, didn't really exist. and now it has become a very important gathering. and we're not talking only about the 6 or 5 countries which joins the bricks. plus, we're talking about 40 other countries, one to join the brakes. and this should be a long time for the western countries. that's the that they have a that they haven't opened up the existing to national institution. and this would be only fair and the important step know that the west of the country should open this. so not the so they that all these countries on not only live focusing on china and yeah, we'll see how that plays out. that's all we have time for. thank you very much to all 3 of our guests and show it to you for watching. remember, you can watch this and all other shows on our youtube channel searching the w. news

. i'm call you, i guess, until next time. take care and goodbye the

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