the immediate in cultures around the world, people learned to classify small handful of animals with edible and all the rest of the classify as disgusting. the w series about our complex relationship with them and also need to be watching now on you to w documentary the the desperate they have little choice, this gaping from wall persecution, not even the effects of climate change. and so, so for better life, they are taking up things that are still in use. the hope is to find a more promising future. however, this hope often leads to crowded refugee comes as we've recently seen, a non producer of their increasing number of refugees and bill harsh and in human conditions. a similar situation unfolds of the us mexico border of many face the grim reality of not being recognized as asylum seekers. the whole countries appear

overvalued and increasingly showing a honda stands in the approach. even the most expensive deal, i'm not able to stop the died of illegal immigration. so i'm to the point. we are asking global migration prices. what solutions do politicians have the hello and welcome to to the point that each of how do you have sign in here in berlin to understand how governments around the world are trying to tackle the issue of a legal migration. i have 3 spectacular guests with me today. we have kind of lee now be good or she is political editor of goes to the little bit, i'll know bolan's, leading online political and cultural briefly. next on the final is john scott. it's not, he is a british auto broadcaster,

an executive director at chatham house. i think dogs headquartered in london. and joining us from london is john doug. here he is a senior fellow at the europe instability gonna share through sci. i'm just working on a migration policy a very well on the computer. well, thank you for joining catalina law. producer has been in use all week, but also new york not more than a 100000 migrants. how that i've been since the spring of 2022. what's going on? why is there this influx into your on us? is that an explanation to this? i think we are right in the midst of a migration at polk. this is certainly the heart of our challenges that we are facing right now. now the, the, the reasons for this, or, of course, complicated as with every great phenomenon. this also has a lot of various reasons, but i would name a couple of them. so 1st of course the climate change,

this is the 1st thing. the 2nd thing is how the politics in africa in the asian countries look like and the situation, that's the city that the societies are in. this is the 2nd. the 1st one is that it seems that the international mafioso are also very much interest that into smuggling those people. so they are so to say making money an enormous amounts of money on this. and last but not least, the social media, because no on each and every one smartphone we can see what's the life looks like in australia, in europe, in the united states and canada. and this is what those people see on. they are smells phones. so if the life looks so well in those countries, why not? but why not to go and change everything? so i'm confident going by so many reasons. is it time to reconsider the refuse the policies that are exist? and the question is, who does that, and how is it done?

so here in, in berlin, in the heart of europe, is this not at national level? is this done at european level? and what we have is, and less month on month, tactical shifts crisis management by governments here in and elsewhere. but we do not have is a strategy for migration know alongside it components in to it? do we have a strategy for demography either? so we have the power adults that in europe, in order to sustain our public services with in most countries, aging populations who are no longer working all soon will no longer be working, paying into the system and being able to afford the relatively good life. but most citizens had, i'm have assumed as a given for so long, we need people to come in what we haven't got is a differentiation. so we have political asylum seekers who have a,

a certain amount of sympathy, all the boxes whitening. we thing that with your brain injury long ago, seeing that with the syrians, enough guns and an iraq uses elsewhere. and then we have people who want as you said, in your introduction, but back to life now you could construct and you should construct a system difficult though that may be all back to navigating that. so people don't come on on dangerous boats. they come on and scheduled airlines in order to become doctors, to become shifts to become nurses, accountants, all the things that we need to fill out drugs and also to, to rejuvenate our societies. because we will say most places have, have fully both, right? so there's no differentiation, and there's no structure. what there is is almost overwhelming panic, or let's go to john dot hughes. and john don consummate just said that they have to

be strategies to make sure that people don't come via these boats. now the fact remains at the center of the mediterranean route, that is considered the most dangerous migrate trees hold on yet the number of people taking that route has gone many fold. we've called a few reasons what, why are people ready to fix that to address? what are the reasons for that? i, i think you've had a number of them the outlined to already. i think it's also what i mean breaking down a little bit who is currently taking, taking that route. so in the last few years, a very large number of people. the significant reason for the spikes is being an increase in julian's bangladesh, cheese, and, and injections. these are all countries that are not producing large volumes of, of refugees. so that's one category. and these are overwhelmingly economic migrants in the last year. yeah. and responsible for that, the southern spice that we've seen in the last few months and weeks on producer is

ginny and cook div. wow. now that it's a different category and much higher category of, of migrants who do go on to, to acquire refugee status. so there are definitely very different groups moving for, for very different, for different reasons. right? very different groups. now, the central mediterranean road ends up lump into is and italian island that only has a capacity to accommodate 500 microns according to a 1000 and red cross. but more than 5000 refugees. and i that and just one be as they are exhausted and worn out, many waited for months in north africa, across the mediterranean to reach your up. and then came dissolution that the camps on line produced are completely overcrowded. the situation in the center is not too good because it's too crowded to gets foods you can fight if you don't,

5 to go have food. even to zip show is a problem. even close problem because the population is too much. there are no more migrants then locals on land producer. many residents are angry, they fear that their islands could become a permanent refugee hotspots. such as our message is that europe must wake up because the european union has been absence for 20 years. yeah, so today we're giving this signal land producer says enough of which doesn't know that the people here have suffered long enough. people solve it. we're a psychologically destroyed gambled and singled you come in. this is land producer being used by the maloney government to put pressure on the you john cons. now what do you think is italy trying to pressure those for you? well, georgia, maloney is a curious kinds of coming into government on

a sort of fall right tool old right now to this populist platform, she like most mainstream leaders, is struggling just as much as anybody else. not just to deal with number is and of course actually increase of the to sort of most obvious points of arrival or at least they have been up until now she's struggling with the immediate arrivals and she's like, whole other european leaders is, is struggling for a strategy and, and knowing how to do it. so yeah, i mean, it was important and i think a short term success of has to get us live on the line to come to the producer. and a few days ago to see that there is, there is more focus on that. there was an internal european debate parts of the original dublin treaty, that sort of sets out mechanisms which uh, delineates whether the responsibility of the country of entry versus a disposal of asylum. see cuz i'm migrant across your. the problem is

that a lot of central and eastern european countries have not been playing bold, particularly famously in 2015 with hungry and, and australia. so germany took in more than a 1000000 people. famously then in some countries are picking up more of the button others. and if countries like germany where, where we are here now getting increasingly hot boat and getting increasingly frustrated because by looking at the shoulders and that seeing the f d n a. and the other dangerous forces. then we've got a real problem. i would come to the distribution of uh, mike vincent, a bit. but catalina, we've heard. who are the people coming? they've heard the reasons why they were coming. i'd like to understand how does this happen? to 100 votes this week and number 2. so how was this even possible? isn't to ask a very good question also to john as well, how is it possible that those people are actually capable of, of risking their own lives? but i, i, uh, i felt momentarily about those people who are trying to cross the burning world

before 1989. i mean, they were also risking their lives and yet no, nothing could, could, could stop them from, from doing that. so i believe that this is fairly much connected with the, the, the organized crime which is behind all those boats coming, coming to europe to come to your other question. i think that what we are dealing here is a problem which is connected with people smugglers and this is x 3 me extremely important. on the other hand, we also have very little time. so don't have started to talk about it. this is also a, something that can vendor our democracy simply in the way that people are genuinely afraid of their societies, some of their environments changing and such a prompt pace. so what do they do?

they often believe the populace and then the populace are complete. the not the solution. there is the new book by then, you know, to bluffton. stephen live, it's k a, the tire on the of minority. and they describe a very interesting part of books, namely, never in history. in many countries, like you repeat in countries, but also the united states, we have been so close to an ideal of a multi cultural democracy functioning. and yet, in 2016 we have the 1st victory. oh spelling of the term. and yet in 2016, we have for exit. and yet in 2015, we have the victory of law and justice in full length. and every thing, every in each of those campaigns was connected with exactly this argument. no more a migration. mm. hm, and of course, yet they are not able to do anything about it, jonathan, you wanted to between? well, i mean, it's just, you're absolutely right, and i'm,

what is fascinating here, bring it back to germany just for a 2nd. is that the social democrats, and particularly the greens, stopping to talk in slightly different language because we're all looking ahead with some trepidation to european elections of the summer. next year. germany has 3 regional elections in the full, the communist east in the ocean. all of them looked like being democratic called crushes, and we've got the slave by collections very shortly. we have the polish election, 3 weeks, and 3 weeks. it looks like a very dangerous world in which the easy rhetoric of populace is exploiting. what in football terminology you would call an open go? the ground has been completely seated by the mainstream democratic policies to a frightened just of stepping onto this tough catalina just mentioned. you said

what are the solutions now, what up on the line has announced a 10 point action plan. john done his and the action plan does look a solution oriented. it also looks ambitious at the surface, but do you think it's realistic? so it is a combination of the tried and failed and, and empty slogans. i'm to refer back to, to, to what john was saying just now. the question is forthcoming and that she's whenever it comes to migration is who gets to present themselves as having a solution that that is credible. i'm the works. and the, the central problem at the moment is that the main street political establishment, the use doesn't appear to have any solutions that work at all. i mean, if, if you refer to this, this 10 point time, what suffice to do anything, reform of, of the european asylum system will change nothing increased. you can print solidarity mechanism, but no one wants to take part in that. in any case,

if it was implemented, it leave it up to more people than it does now because it is under represented intensive design. seakans, abdomen, move from tech support. it got to say that board is where the host country doesn't want them to be. all they have to turn that, but the eyes away from the perspective better recurring. they're going to do. they going to change nothing uh, deals with choose. yeah, for instance, small deals with no concrete goal set out for the country that's supposed to implement the resulting more people coming in. more human rights violations, a car, and more assistance to countries in africa. the 3 countries not for pick up the most assistance from that, you use 5 video and then the last 5 years, every 3 credits and those countries. nice to hear here looking across all i need to ask you to pass on a money that's not going to do anything. none of the elements of this 10 point time will fundamentally change anything. in contrast, though,

the latest you get to look because if they have had solutions that work on the far right. uh, pretty close to the far right. whether that's pissed in 1st and say, we've tried to pull it up on a shame at least push people back and look for a few people in writing order. but i guess to say i built fences. i still don't smart country from anyone applying for sorry. how many people arrive 9. it works out that. so be nice as i got rid of rescue ref. rescue bucks in the mediterranean numbers fell into pay as to what was it that was funded mental causes induction. to number, but nonetheless, they get to present the solutions of solutions that work. present d, push backs, con, do what? the challenge for mainstream political establishment and parties is what do you present as an alternative to violence, cruelty and brutality of your board isn't in terms of the countries that have the syndic one moment of contemporary electro politics open for live boards and what

everyone's focus needs to to, to be on. nope, nope, fantasies of the kind that the you and from the line is, is, is pending. so, so no, no somebody solutions in a minute. so no concrete solutions from the politicians. but a lot of the v have indeed heard some strong words from both on the line. i'm gonna need this week. let's take a quick listen to what they've said. so we will decide who comes to the european union, and i'm the what circumstances and not the smart, less traffic. cuz i want to go to the following day, my div, we're dealing with such a large number of migrant flow edi. i mean that we can only take action against legal immigration together, you know, but it was still phenomenal. otherwise the phenomenon will not only overwhelm countries with external borders. you proclaim it, but all the countries of the men, the queen budget to keep the 2 d. catalina john dog. susan has raised a lot of points. now,

would you say that the europe and distribution plan has completely failed? i would save up to the public opinion is changing, and it is changing profoundly throughout the european member states. look here in germany in 2015, a medium of people has been welcomed. now after the start of the full scale war in ukraine, this country has also accepted hundreds of thousands of people from ukraine, refugees from ukraine. however, after those 2 last microphones crisis, the german politicians say more and more often listen via shopping destination. now we will know there's any, we cannot do it anymore. even if we have very goodwill, they'll look at the poland, poland supposed to go seen a lot is being said about the current government and it's a policy of not opening borders and northwell coming. even those cold us. that's

where in 2015 as a decided by the group and union. but listen to the position, listen to the position. actually, they would not change the policy so much. perhaps this is very probable. they would oppose the situation in which on the polish killer wilson border, we have people in the forest who actually stars to this. and 1st of this, this is what they oppose very strongly. they believe that if someone has crossed the funds, they should be helped in a legal and a human way. somebody thought of going away. but as for whether they will a welcome more uh, more microns, more refugees, i think. what, what is to be heard from the rest of the week of the 40? so position is always, or ever more in the direction of, of denmark. so, so either a rational solution is, is, is found,

which will somehow pose this position between the constellation of factors. so european values, homeowner and tell you on 3 thing of, of new coming groceries international law. but also the fear to collect the field of people who are afraid of their world changing so either reasonable, but also pragmatic solution is found or the populace will be winning in and in the european countries one after another. so if one additions, i'm not able to change policy as of now and smoking those other one, deciding who will enter you has your lost control completely. states losing control and it's not just control of migration. but as we've already been discussing, it's losing control of the politics as well. a math is incredibly dangerous. and as i said before, that's, that's big picture stuff. but we need a very grown up debate about migration and demographics,

and what kind of society we will want to live in, in each of our different countries, with all the disagreements of that debate that i wouldn't tell. but there's also some very practical things in just a couple of quick steps. and just to add at this point, so in germany alone, according to official steps. but currently 280000 migrants have had the applications rejected. and they've gone through the process and they have been told they have to leave. in the 1st 6 months of 2023, few with an 8000 was a extradited, was sent out of the country. now the problem is that there, there is the wider question, but when systems are not working, i mean in the u. k. just i, it's another example where there's a very right wing shrill interior, administrative, who's always huffing and puffing about migration. but the system is broke and they

can't even process applications. they called me and remove people when their application broke. so when systems, when the basic practicalities don't work, that as a further dimension into these why the questions as well? you mentioned the okay, so i'd like to hold in john dallas isn't now you is talking about um, present shapes you guys talking about sending people to rhonda. that's not the most humane way to deal with the humanitarian crisis of it. are looking at every aspect of, of this policies. as you may know, there are many who disagree with every single aspect of it. but i think it's what we're going to consider some of the elements that the u. k is broken into the debate and the others in europe will say comes in. so if you take a step back, there are 2 ways in which you can seek to reduce it regular arrivals. one we've seen and we've seen that it,

it can work if you have the stomach for it is coating. and the other is agreements with other countries of origin, transit and perhaps 3rd countries all together. but you can legally send people back to including asylum seek it is. i have a wonderful the applies for site. and then, what does legally mean it means this has to be a country in which it is safe for them. and they have access to a procedure codes the country be ronda? well, possibly be possibly in a very revealing court of appeal judgment in the u. k. a few months ago you guys said, well, there's nothing in principle wrong with sending an asylum seekers to us that come through. but in practice does around to deliver what is necessary. and it concluded no. but okay, that's the, the start of something that you can possibly work on. yeah. and around, possibly in, in other countries, as it happens for the u. k as

a much better solution to much easier solution to implement which would be were to, to, from very quick, very immediate return of people arriving defrost. this requires a quick for quite a agreement with ross past other e u countries, probably not with the with the year itself. um, but the idea that this comes back to, to, to joe is concerned about returns. you called transfer individuals to countries that don't want to cooperate with that return in any number. and this is why some few people over time to, to do africa. if you want the effective return return policies, you need agreements with these countries that are in the interest that offer them something they want quite possibly large amounts of legal mobility. this is what you need with many rest, suffolk, and such a hard country. if you want to be able to return to reduce the spiking arrivals

that we haven't discussed, but on the greek items, what do you need to look back at the, what is the one thing that has worked in the last 6 years. it was an agreement with church in 2016. how does the recessive take that in a way that encourages therapy to take people back to greece, including asylum seekers, but in a way that they are looked up to women? so can you have access to an asylum procedure that i'm gonna talk? you have an interest in, in, in respect. that's the only way. okay? we don't have time for mol, calling. i will give you the last word very quickly. um, now migration practice is going to increase especially because of climate change. can that'd be a humane way to deal with that at all. sense i can do stuff. cannot be a human way. are we still europeans? john? it's the guys. absolutely. it comes down to what kind of societies do you want, what's kind of, since i've seen your book and what kind of societies can you sustain without that being social instability. thank you. read along producer or new york,

europe or the us. will there be a solution to this globally migration crisis in the near future? what do you think about it? if you're watching us and youtube, do let us know your thoughts? thanks for watching. goodbye the the, the,

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