and after his rest on spying, the will of the town has no stories and more for you after a very short break. do stay with us if you can. sarah kelly in berlin. thank you so much for your time. take care. the jackie is changing 6 years ago. we said it can't get any was to, but it does guardians of truth. this time excel gen liz turned in dar meets the voices of the 3 turkey alter as the other one had to flee into exile. i knew the police would search my house. courageous people are trying to stem the turkish governments all sort of tammy calls of some kids.

but really it's a crime is addressed in the path of trying to take suspense ability for his action . what about the freedom of to pray and freedom of expression? god use of choice starts october 28th on d w. the you're watching dw news agent coming up today. the growing price of doing business in china for and companies have become targets for badging sweeping counter espionage loss. we look at china's increasing use of exit bands for, for a national and a life in chinese detention. a personal accounts from a taiwanese business man, accused of spying and stealing, state secret 3. that is just like hey, if you use lucid,

if you appeal the my name is melissa chan, thanks for joining us. the u. s. is sending another high level delegation to china next week on the agenda for the group of senior law makers. are a range of security and economic issues to raise with a jing, including the growing risks of doing business with the world's 2nd largest economy . multi national companies are complaining that china is becoming a hostile business environment. as the security states reach, expands, the us secretary of commerce, who visited badging in late august, says patients is running fitting for investors who now have to contend with quote, exorbitant fines without any explanation revisions to the counter espionage law which are unclear and sending shock waves through the us community rates on

businesses, a whole new level of challenge. the scariest aspect is the growing numbers of business travelers facing a rest and detention. badging has also increased its use of exit benz, preventing people from leaving in the country. this includes both foreign citizens and chinese executives working with international corporations, raising concerns that china is not really open for business, except on its own terms. the us has even issued a travel warning quote. we consider travel to mainland china due to the arbitrary enforcement of local laws, including in relation to exit bands and the risk of wrongful detentions are joining us in the studio is dw as agent analyst clifford at kuhn and clifford. can you tell us more about these exit bands? have chinese authorities provided any explanation, or are they truly arbitrary?

well, i think as us china relations have worse, and they've become more arbitrary and they become scary or harder to work out exactly what's going on. it's quite a broad issue here. we have sort of a profile global issues like the detention of 2 canadian nationals in a, in a power and retaliation for the detention of, of a senior chinese executive. then you have more sort of plastic espionage cases where people are tried in secret and they just go to jail and we don't know what happens. and then you have the exit bonds where you have executives who are involved in various business dealings or whatever. who are just not allowed to leave the country, and they're stuck in their hotels, in shanghai or in guam, joe or wherever they are. but they don't, we, you know, why they're, there, i'm what's going on. and in the most extreme cases, these people are for nationals including americans. can you tell us a little bit more about that? yeah, i think since uh, particular since the trade war has intensified in the, in the middle of the last decades, you know, and we've seen a lot,

a lot more americans being involved a lot more foreigners being involved. um, so it used to be that it was a chinese born americans, you know, who have at both chinese passports and americans. but as we saw with the to michael's that this case in, in the, to canadians. and they were, they were all of us. they weren't all chinese and in one particular case, what, who i spoke to. i spoke to harrison lee who's the son of kylie, and his father was detained on espionage charges. now his father is shanghai born, but he's an american citizen and he's been jail since 2016. and in the interview, harrison said how he hasn't seen his father in person for 7 years. and he reckons it was his father's notion dollars. he was the reason that he was targeted by the chinese government and in prisons and we can listen to him here. i think that's the most frightening aspect of hostage diplomacy that literally anybody can be targeted simply for their nationality. and my dad's case against an american

citizen and you know, because i guess blue passport, he was targeted by the chinese government control leverage. and that's, that's the simple reality of the situation here. so we see there how he refers to hostage diplomacy. that's a big factor in the, in the reasoning behind why a lot of these people are forbidden from leaving china and m. i asked him, we agree with this as a background, whether he felt that it was a, whether people were taking a risk going to china. yeah. 100 percent. right. i mean if, if people like my dad, ordinary people, right. it's not like, oh, you know, again, even though i have any political connections, he doesn't have a lot of money. i mean, it's, you know, anyone visiting china for whatever reason, right. yes, there are 4 national they have this risk of being right. targeted for hostage diplomacy, and that's why there is this travel advisory that's precisely why this advisory exist is because of that risk. and i think just

a lot of people um are not aware of that, especially yes. and the business community, clifford do we have an extent to which international companies are reassessing, the risk of sending businessmen and women into china. and how much are these exit benz booking executives? i think they definitely spoke to people. the situation was already pretty bad because a lot of people who went to china got stuck there during the cobra lockdown, which was very extreme in china. and they couldn't leave and they didn't see their families for, for in some cases years. but aside from that, this is a, this political aspect to it is very important and i think it has made an impact and how have companies are behaving. we have an irish executive, richard holler on, who is detained in shanghai over what looks like a be a business dealings issue where the was the purchase of a plane on the ownership of the plains disputed. he couldn't leave for, for many months until eventually he was freed. but when that kind of thing happens,

if we does boot foreign companies and it's, it's kind of happened at the same time, is relations between the us and china have worse and, and i think it's, it's a big risk now for, for companies sending people there. they, they risk huge liabilities if their people get to stop there. and so i think a lot of it is going to depend on how i relations develop now between the us and china, whether people will start coming back. but the still a lot of reluctance about going there. i think it's fascinating that those who are choosing to go, i mean, i think everybody just thinks it ain't gonna happen to me. right. is going to happen to someone else, but not me. banning business people at a time when china is seeking to grow as economy to do business with the world. that seems so counter productive. so clifford, i wonder why is this happening? well i think it's, like we said many times before, we list that when you look at these, this situation and politics always trumps economics. and in china,

and this is very much a decision, a political decision, i think it's tied in with the relationship between the western china and regardless of the impact of these business people are having. i think that ultimately if there's a feeling within the communist party that it's better to, to, to freeze at the west. i think that your, it's going to lead to these kind of exit bonds happening. it's going to lead to people like you say, nobody wants to be the 1st to be arrested. so they're, they're quite happy for the situation to continue that people don't want to go to china. we are seeing signs of a reset. now in western relations with china, particularly the u. s. relations with china. so maybe the situation will change, but ultimately i think they hold exit on strategy if it and it is a strategy comes down to political reasoning. so this all goes down to shooting p. ultimately, it does come down to huge and paying, particularly a kid. he has made all these decisions that don't make economic sense for a lot of people. you know, it's been like that for quite

a number of years. it doesn't seem like economics is a factor for him until it gets really, really serious until like the, the warning signs are out there. red flags everywhere that he has to change course . yeah, that's right, i'm so he's, he's 30, he follows his own course. he knows what he wants to do in terms of the marxist lender and aside geology are the comments party audiology. and that's going to be the, his primary concern. it's not going to be worrying about the impact of international on an international trade. even on the chinese economy as very so, so many, especially at a time also in the e u, where they're also looking to, to resume business as usual, with the chinese, all of this happening to american citizens, to a chinese citizens working for multi national companies. very, very troubling and hard to predict when you're trying to do business with china in this kind of unpredictable environment. clifford couldn't thank you so much for joining us.

the dw also speaks to lead men to a taiwanese businessman, who was detained in china and accused of espionage and stealing state secrets. he was also a victim of an exit band, and you won't believe what chinese authorities considered as incriminating evidence . here's the w's, james tater reporting from sion crew in northern taiwan. the moment you is finally back home in taiwan. he recently with the chinese authorities held him for 4 years now since you the city where he was born and raised looks different. with sudden new abilities as like new high speed house and new shopping, most new stores. that's good. these are the pictures, the costly full use of his life. not his food with the chinese police in the distance. it was in 2019 and he was on a regular business trip to the southern chinese city of sons and police were

gathering here right next to hong kong which was gripped by pro democracy protests up a time. lee says he was curious about the police gathering and was in the public space, but the chinese officials forced him to confess to espionage. that'd be the table below that before several times. if you, if you follow us, maybe the charge will be as low as part of homes that he moved to the left present in 2021. but the aging and post exit bond kept him in china until recently for you, this price of for you the is just like a fresh a breeze. if you use those that are for you that you appeal to problem for lee in many others here is the chinese president. she, jim ping says taiwan is sacred chinese territory. and that full time when these people, he's citizens of these experiences deepened. his belief in the importance of defending

tie when he's autonomy, his old high school costs might eric, you know, offer some advice about dealing with the use lost in china. tell you what all that sounds that good or good houses to go to that kind of to drug with him. so you have to treat it like you've come back from full use at democracy university. you can only think of it like that. yeah. yeah. and in the future, you just a good that copy of that you an idea of the now spends much of his time on the human rights activists work. often talking about what the chinese communist party or c c p did to him. and why just kill it? so how about your experience in china? because if i keep a site that they will be more, the more choose for you. leave feel safe here. it's home on time. one's north west coast. even though china

is less than 200 kilometers away across the sea, i'm going forward. he says, he's determined to do once he can to keep it that way for that. so for the programs, my name is melissa chan, thanks for watching and good by the into the conflict. so i worry about the will of the west to continue to do what needs to don strong was. so my guess is waiting today says former deputy supreme commander in europe. richard. sure there's a lingering field, but somehow we can go back to some sort of space and scroll down to russia. that is not going to happen to happen. conflict next on d. w. he's got any issues with the

i worry about the will of a west to continue to do what needs to be done. strong words from my desk this week data is full, the deputy supreme commander of your so richard sheriff, there is still in your, among european countries a lingering feel that somehow we can go back to some sort of states as quote and to with russia. that is not going to happen. so what does he think will happen? so alarming prospect soon focus is allowed wake up go to europe and america.