like um, we'll be with you all the way for as long as it takes they listen to those coming out of brussels. they listen to those coming out of washington that they believe. do you believe them? well, i'll check on the price line here, but i do want, as i said on the that will continue on. that's the positive actually let's, let's say for example, yes, the nice i some, it was very clear in terms of the support, but i would like to see also actually a statement from somebody. so summit that ukraine will join nature when but conditions allow, when the flashing of stops on i would have had we all gauge a give you will lock in, the less will a hindrance, everything you need somebody pricing start as quickly as possible. in other words, to defeat the russians, i the chief joke and bring back to our treat you credit entire trait on the credit in salt frontier and control several how, how finely balanced is this more in your view? how could things go badly wrong for you?

credit, what are the possible inflection points that you cried needs to watch for, and what are you guys going to continue to defend? the russians will continue to months offensive operations, where they see opportunities as they are indeed mounting some reform all offensive in the northern public warehouse. it appears but with the effective result. so you can go to continue to protect itself protected center of gravity. it's also strength and it's also strength visits people, and it will addicts, determination. there are lots mesa, our lots has also got a protected source of strength, which is, it's a lot station. i think ukraine will prevail. i think your credit is prevailing at the moment, but it can, it will only achieve final victory when it has broken through a port of the russian defenses. and in my view from crime. yeah. i'm from those lines of communication done to crime. they are making it very impossible for the

russians to hold on. that is going to require a huge amount more and i'm less feels like that. it's not going to be over with one defensive. i think we have to be ready to support the ukrainians in a series of counter offensive or which are going to require the same level of training equipment. i mention that the launching of the fast defensive across the fisk run on for time. so the west nature needs the strategic patients to continue to support your grand till the end of like the end of the day. you how about the possibility? i think it was a, in an article in may that if the west of the supply all the hardware you pay needs now, victory may not be possible. and they sent troops might have to intervene, directed to assure that k f wins. um, do you think that's a real possibility? is that something that nato would have seriously contemplate that they saw never seriously contemplated before? 2014 or even up to 2014,

an invasion of ukraine by rushing nice. i never seriously contemplated the baltic states would be for us. and you can never say no, that's the set up for the son because this was the now i it, but it never. you read if it really services don't nice i would. and at the rock that would you invite you cried, i think you'd have seen a completely different approach to turns back up the call this nation. i saw this in 2014 for example. so never real anything arch um does what is nice. ok to have to get involved. i pray not, but if the alternative is a decade of stay on mates a decade, all an enormous conferences, a running soul in eastern europe, who knows nato paul might need to get involved in order to swing the balance. because that sort of style made a running so in eastern europe along the borders of ukraine is going to be a french to, to europe in security. and if at the end of the day, your pan security is, is threatened, nationally, security is trenton,

nighttime may have to take action to support you credit. but the way to avoid is that the way to avoid nato engagement is the double don know, and next. yeah, on what the crating needs to achieve victory or just a follow up on on how you think this might go? do you think the base or whatever chief consensus on a plan to move in directly assisting credit and forces with members like congress? i'll step back yet, so i k o possessing a veto is in the get it together to do that. well, it goes, australia is, is known as the and number, but no point is absolutely fine. the coast consensus would be incredibly difficult to get concepts that consensus, but as i said out, it may tire, moves at the speed of a flyer to ship in the convoy. and if, if the threat is the, is the circumstances of i'm not clear and not the moment, but here not errors antonio's time. and things may well have changed. and if it

needs to nice or we'll get the you've talked to some of your interviews about a war last thing 2 to 3 years. no quick fixes. is that a danger that over such a long periods? that's what we're as old as globalized. it drops from the headlines. people get bored, they lose the fighting spirit. money dries up on the priorities begin to dominate. is that a possibility in this instance to think? absolutely, absolutely, and that's exactly what i'm worried about. the west losing interest, the west losing momentum. the west losing 5 coast nights, i may say, oh i'm is they tied defense forces not building themselves up. suffice without being built off to face. that's right. absolutely. that's my concern. but the with, as i said, i that with an election. yeah. next year in america, will america continue to provide that enormous capability?

and that's something we've got to watch and it comes back to my point about the way to make sure all that ukraine achieves that spectrum as quickly is doubled down on what it needs. now, in order to avoid that long running, the long running on sale net do for say, what kind of your do you foresee coming out of this or it's, it's not going to be the same. is it? nothing is ever going to be the same again after this, what changes? everything changes, doctrine, it changes a whole perception of security in your doesn't it, i think very still saw it very still in your, among european countries a lingering feel that somehow we can go back to some sort of states as quote and to with russia that is not going to happen. what ever happens? yeah, let's assume your credit achieves. that's been a trip tractors. let's assume the guns bull silent. the veterans some as a result of 5 of the russians brought up a white flag old as an honest as or something. and the ukrainians able are able to,

to, to liberate as much of the country as i will. a lot of them, the security of, of it was not looking for that is not going to stop russia. the russian does are under what a leader is in the kremlin. russia will continue to want to eliminate ukraine from a map. it's built into russian dna that ukraine cannot exist as a, as a country. there is no such thing as a separate nation or culture of ukraine. and that means that ukraine has got to become part of no time. and that means, but in order to protect and they try to protect your protect the laws, protect ukraine, nighttime is going to establish a bond of the tire and steal around around eastern europe to include ukraine mall drive of georgia, maybe even one day by the rest to protect against a russian because what we're witnessing is a decline of the russian. and this is going to play out over the decades to com. it's not a bit of an over and done with the quickly it's yours of my grandchildren. honeymoon

pricing is challenged and so the only way to maintain peace in your loan is through an effective nature to turn so that instead of change the change but dynamic in economically financially, the way your positives business the patio is completely dropped out. but that's my view of the way things are going to happen. do you think the doctrine of new care to tone subscribe to survive this conflict? now the russians being waving gets nukes and all faces. and how are we going to see it when they have a new pair um, states doing the same thing, whatever they want, something that we won't give them. yeah, i mean, i think you're going to be really careful about us as assuming, but somehow because we've got, you're right in this country we've, we've got try it in to an integral dropped into continental or sickness. all that is going to credibly russian aggression or to the tire effectively. you need to be able to deter at every level of symmetric, conventional, tactical nuclear,

all the way out the scale. i think for the foreseeable future, russia of course, will post a new friend. the way to, to the chart is to have effective new clips and turns as well as conventional attendance by the way, to and showed up a new class. but the nuclear saber rattling uh, is, in a sense rendered um, meaningless, is through effective conventional to time to time. because of rational thinks that it can get away with nuclear black mile 'vette. it won't try that. and if you have effective the terms on every level, it wouldn't be able to provide the big a problem, the west to show that it listens to new play a blackmail. it's been listening to what the credit of the sentence it's. it's telling down it's rhetoric, it hasn't given you credit. the weapons that need it listens to nuclear back ma'am . and that makes it valuable to basically like north korea, doesn't it?

well, this goes back to my point about self to terms and a not cooling pritchens month. i mean, let's be clear and the sort of new saber rattling is really, really dangerous. but yeah, the west needs to be absolutely unequivocal on shoulders. the top of, i mean, i think we have to know upset and of course is that there is communication between america and rush it up. there is communication between certain all the data, capitals and russia on the absolute this out. and the message has been played out very powerfully. but if there is any form of nuclear new to release, tactical or otherwise, russia can expect to suffer a massive pay conventionally as a result. but the wesley spit cleared the time and about that. so richard sheriff, we've run out of time unfortunately, thank you very much for being on complex. so thank you for having me. thankful for your time. thank you. the

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the. this is the, the news lines from valid thousands of civilians are killed in ukraine by a russian rock. a detox, ukraine's presidents and landscape denounces through all could strike as a brutal cross. meanwhile, savanski pushes to keep right on the agenda in spain. he's at a summit. although at the latest as funding for keeps organs, russia's invasion takes the hits in washington last.