the so called all the topics, i'm much up to you from table top fixing your culture and in 15 minutes, let's say together parts of our community life on the research is now on the top. what's happening to the world's 4th largest economy in contrast to other large industrial nations and compared to europe, germany as economy is we can, companies are complaining about a poor business environment due to high energy prices. there is already talk of creeping d industrialization. some economists, dental additions, believe germany is once again the so called sick man of you're the same time right wing populist attitudes are on the rise. more people are critical of democratic principles are prosperity and democracy in danger. on to the point, we ask

a great power in trump. what's wrong with germany, the hello and very warm welcome to this week's to the point time, have us and i'm happy to introduce this week's guests on to dave's is a government reporter for bloomberg. news based here in berlin quality buena is a journalist and editor at the berlin bureau of the german news paper targets. and katya jolla is a researcher at the king's college and london and author of the best selling book beyond the wall, about the former german democratic republic. 12, you are very welcome as well, and thank you for being with us of valerie. i'd like to start with you. most of our viewers are not in germany and might be wondering why we're even having this discussion. how would you describe this sensation, this feeling and germany, the things are not going well. i feel like when the worst started,

the russia ukraine worst started on february 24th 2022. basically, germany was right at the center almost immediately because of the energy crisis that followed. germany was heavily dependent on russian gas, and that sort of became the country's defining moment of like a downward spiral that we're watching right now and fold. and i think that basically made the country so aware of its vulnerabilities that weren't quite as visible before. visible in the country itself, but what about outside of the country country? do you live in london? your work in london? do you think people there also see germany as a struggling country right now? i think so. i mean there's a tendency here thing to compare. britain to germany, particularly post breaks it where people are always looking for figures to show you,

you know, that it either worked with didn't work and germany is usually used as the, as the autistic. and i think at the moment in particular, you know, products that goes right to the central office to buy it. and the argument is that the u. k. economy is growing foster and then the off germany. and so i thought certainly is the sense that, you know, germany is declining was prisoners sort of doing ok. well at least of the, the message that the, the, the government and the official say goes to the figures are important. we're going to take a closer look at them later on on it. however, you know, not too long ago under, i'm going, i'm actually germans were very confident in their country and in their future. it's not that long ago. to what extent do you also think this might have to do with the change of leadership in the country this mood swing? oh, well, i think a trans flush also has the unlucky task to tackle some of the problems which actually were already visible on the 10th a lot,

michael. but now he has to drop to more or less clean up the mess if you want to say. so um, and then of course you have to war, you have changing global market conditions. um, so there are a number affect us and i think they all unfortunately, right? no work against germany. it is certainly a perfect storm. we are going to have a look at the numbers because while most industrialized nations are recovering strongly after the cubic 19 pandemic, the german economy is shrinking. some politicians and economists are predicting germany's downfall after decades of stability. what's more, that impression of weakness is damaging. germany's image germany is the 4th largest economy in the world. this export nation wants to become a climate neutral economy. but there is not enough in back as many companies are complaining about too much bureaucracy, slow digitalization, and high taxes. more than 40 percent of companies lack skilled workers,

but above all energy costs are high. a consequence of years of dependence on russian gas replacing it is expensive. one key industry is especially affected. the chemical sector sales are down and it is reducing production companies are now threatening to migrate, for example, to the us, which offers attractive subsidies and the german auto industry falling behind. the electric cars have long been coming from china. germany's economic growth. it's embarrassingly slow, according to the o. e. c. d. it ranks 19 among the 20 largest economies. it is followed by origin tina, but economists do expect to recovery in 2024 thanks to the following inflation and rising wages. how deep is the german economic crisis? and we're gonna talk that one to you. valerie german economy, as you already mentioned, was power full tanks to cheap gas from russia,

but also very low military expenses and a thirst for german products. coming from a booming china, all 3 are gone, tenant actually recover from this ceiling. we perfect store and i think it would be to to going too far to predict. germany's down fall like from a global player at this point. and i do think germany can recover, but i think as on the said, you kind of have, you have so many issues that were long are invisible because of gross because of good conditions because of money coming in. and since it's sort of been strips to more of it's like bare bones, you kind of see what's actually going on in this like skeletal germany and what structures have to be changed and fixed for the country to then prosper again in the future. and one of the most important aspects of that outlook into the

future is the energy transition on a germany is betting on unambitious transition to renewable energy, but the resulting high prices are actually driving companies away. is there a reason to believe germany is and will continue to be a competitive investment destination if this goes on? and i think the, the path to many is on. it is a difficult one. it's a risky one. the problem is, i think people determines belief in this energy transition at the outset of this current government. and i think people have lost the bit the belief in it, but also because of come mistakes the government did. there were some laws which were not ideal and made people, most garrison necessary. maybe i think uh, still on the long run it will work. it is also necessary. uh. but

right now we go through the valley of tiers. i would say, what do you mean exactly when you say that people lost trust in that transition? you think they would say bring back new care and bring back coal or what, what do you mean by that? i think i think the, the, especially if the green potty or has a problem here because the argument is always we, we need to do this in order to save the world. and of course, then even people who run not really into the details of the whole thing will understand that and you know we, we do 2 percent of global c, u 2 emission. i think we are responsible for 2 percent. so of course, every same person will ask you most of, well, okay, you know, it's 2 percent, but what do china do? what does the us do? other countries in the world in yeah, i mean they, they all a big c or to a mutual us. and the question is of course, and it's sort of

a valid question. why does germany have to be like the ideal role model for everybody else? you mentioned the green party on it, it's one of 3 governing parties in germany right now. catch up some lane government and mixed signals for the, the internal and the internal disputes that the government has for this general distrust and how they're dealing with the economy. why is it so difficult here to provide a much needed clarity for the people? what else? and possibly it's the fact that you have the coalition government in germany, which isn't necessarily the case in other countries such as near the u. k or the us . and so you're always going to have these internal negotiations and wranglings coming into the public sphere as well and giving the impression of the, you know, disjointed and this united, it's a government that isn't giving a, a clear course. i think the other issues, the, even within the green policy itself, um, you know, you could arguments around the transition of the economy,

particularly, you know, whether or how it's a substitute and that part of the part of the energy 6 does that con p. and fully renewable energy just yet, so you know what you do to bring about nuclear, in which case, the green parts, in particular, in germany as cool, a very strongly legacy bill of opposition against it. but it would be a c, o 2, you know, friendly, other than most of the other alternatives, which is why many green movements in other countries supported but not in germany, where the legacy is just that. and then at the same time, you know, people are arguing with a gas and then what, what form basically is as a substitute, because at the moment of course, it's incredibly expensive to import energy. and so there are one of these arguments i think, internally, both within the policies and within the coalition government that gives the impression of, of a disjointed approach that isn't really leading towards so clear goals of works. a vision that's insecurity, which is of course toxic for the business environment. now, by the way, there's also another massive problem in germany where at least it's always

mentioned, which is bureaucracy. there is the same as example of $4055.00 file folders required for one windmill. at least it was big in the news. is that the biggest threat that it could harm the economy? i think it already is harming the economy. i think that during, during the year of massacre, a lot of bureaucracy, the problem was there and it was known, but nothing really was done about it. so now we end up having these absolutely. almost casket ask structures in which people have to go back and back and back and, and get another permanent another permit. and of course that makes investors more shy about investing because it's such a long drawn out process. and i think i do feel that the, the co listed now is trying to change that. but it's also very hard again,

with the coalition government. they're cut, you already mentioned having different parties having the green party that historically has been very fond of environmental as um and now has to kind of give up like parts of that to facilitate the transition to green energy. for example, if you put up a web mail that might influence birds or something that's like an example, it's always given. and so basically, i think it already is part of the problem. and it's something that they're trying to fix. but it's proven to be much harder to fix, then was anticipated. the same goes for digitalization on a, there's talk to germany is severely behind when it comes to that. what do you make of that assessment? well, i just want to come back quickly to, to the, for all cause the problem of cause you have to ask the same political lead to it who introduced all of this delicacy now to remove it, they can,

it's always difficult because it is, it's kind of on the mindset on structure which they themselves create a list digitalization. um, i think we all have made this experience. you know, you travel abroad, you know, to wherever, in europe you want to go into a suddenly, you realize, oh wow. so the wi fi is much better here the, the, the internet connection. so that the, the has to definitely something has to happen yet, but of cross again, we have then discussions about technical problems. for example, we discussed well way. and now we have this problem, ok, where you have to take, i took away components from the network as probably, you know, which will even slow down the whole process of, of announcing the, the internet structure. i'll make it faster. so i also here again, i think, uh we have the that the,

how can i say that is feeling okay. we have to do something about it. but then you have all the technical problems really and all really good problems. also, you know, data protection in germany is a big issue. it is a huge problem for, for many digital projects. next to hit save something it up that it's always a battle between ideals and principles and the actual feasibility of doing things. and when it comes to ideals, nothing is clear as a problem, then the society of durham, you're right now, it's not just the economic data of the german society is showing alarming. trents. more and more people reject politics and the state and have less trust and democracy, but only in the eastern states that were under communist rule, but also in the west. this appointment with politics is on the rise, posing a threat to what was once again or the mood is dark in germany. according to a survey, around 80 percent of germans are worried about the future. experts say this in security is the result of multiple crises. the corona pandemic, the warren ukraine,

the energy crisis and inflation. the german government has many disagreements. most germans think it is performing poorly. the f, d, p. s p d, and greens would no longer have a majority today. even if a study shows that the coalition has initiated or implemented almost 2 thirds of its promise legislation the a f d, which is partly right wing extremist, is benefiting from ramping to discontent in surveys at rank, 2nd, across the nation. and even 1st in eastern germany, extreme right wing attitude started becoming increasingly socially accepted. over 8 percent of those surveys in the middle of study express a right wing extremist worldview and 20 percent. so not clearly committed to democracy, economic researchers or warning that should germany moved further to the right. investors will strongly away. how can the growing right wing populism be countered?

on a how do you explain that the country that has always warned the rest of the world about forgetting the mistakes of the past is now giving far right parties record support as well. you know, it might sound a bit cynical, but again, we follow maybe the us example here. that means you have to have like a pretty right wing president and power. right now you have a political crisis because you have a right wing ready clothes, basically. questioning the whole democratic system and of course we see a similar trend in germany. i mean it's, you know, we have it and the number of european countries in germany. of course, it always has a different meaning because of all historical passed. but of course, we are grouped by the same identity crisis, which i think many western democracies face right now. um, before all of the us, germany's history is certainly a particular catch at the a if the,

the far right party is strongest in the eastern part of the country, which used to be the german democratic republic, which was under communist rule. that appears to be a big contradiction. a yeah, it has to be. um, i think pop up probably agree with the on it and not. it's a, it's an international problem as well as the see it in the us, but also in fonts with the julie's own. we're not in other countries as well where there is disaffection in dot dot often reflects in, in extremist politics. i think in east germany in particular, there's another dimension that and not they can use this collective sense. so, you know, we've gone through a different experience. we're not really feeling that this democracy dealt with. now part of is, is sort of working for the, for the people in the, if the is very, very good at utilizing that. so where people feel about, you know, it's always up there that those don't, you know, classical phrases that people use are doing the own thing. the, if the sits in,

you know, pops and balls and local of areas and organized local events. and people feel about that being listened to by them. i think that's, that's one way in which this works. and i think the other is that they are also very good at using this kind of logical rhetoric that the really perpetuating the peaceful revolution of 1989. so in contrast to many kind of popular opinions out there that that's what i suspect that east germans on the style jacob felt the pulse. actually the sort of rhetoric that the ac use, this is, you know, you for one dictate the shipping in 1989. and now the states again trying to tell you what to do. so go on to the streets again. and you know, they use slogans like for the end of the vendors. so like complete the, the piece of evolution of 1999 and things like that. so i think that the difference is that the is kind of a in so like an in group feeling among some instruments that they feel, you know, they have their own identity. and the, if the is better able to, to play,

to the end, to use the things and then elsewhere where it's difficult to kind of get a whole group of people to buy and, and the same thing. but do you think the turned or the last governments have actually failed to people in east germany or in the former eastern as that certainly how many people feel so, you know, take, take like the infamous painting bill. you know, people was sort of saying that the government's tried to tell us how to heat. oh and we're ready struggling. and this seems to be very little and kind of communication towards trying to get people on board with this policy. you were explaining what it's actually for, you know, people will have the feeling that this has done to them. and so i think there's certainly a feeling out there that concerns on being heard or, you know, even when the refugee causes thought is that the moment when, when communities of individual um, districts are being told, they have to take sight in so many refugees. but that isn't actually any kind of help or support, or that's how people feel any way in terms of housing,

people supplying them, you know, finding kind of infrastructure that is there. when you know, school support tools and things that are being used. people feel that this was directly impacting on their lives without them actually getting, say in a we can detach the of the, from a strong anti migration discourse, very german companies. this comes altogether with the economy as well. are complaining about a lack of skilled labor. we know that it can only be provided by foreigners, how racist is germany, and how much did that affect the economic outlook? i think as the country that was majority white for or still is for long stuff, it's history. of course there is racism in germany and there's also because i think of how conservative germany was for a long time. there was also always sort of a rhetoric around we're not actually an immigration country. this was actually

something that was debated until like 10 or 15 years ago where clearly germany is an immigration nation, but hasn't identified a search for a long time. i think, you know, studies show that germans are open to, to immigration. and um, so i think it's, it's sort of 2 fold. i think, of course there's racism like of course, but there's also, there was also an openness for a long time. and now, with inflation with the war, the crises pandemic, all of these overlapping crises have sort of halted and a, as a sort of a positive excitement about immigration. because now the way we talk about immigration right now is solely based on refugees under the country. not as much people coming to work here, that would be

a positive narrative because everyone knows you need people to work because there are no, no people to work. so um, so i feel like here you kind of have to, you have to look at both subjects separately. so you have the refugees coming in needing help. of course, a lot of them are traumatized. they've gone through terrible hardship. and on the other hand, the economy needs people to work. question is, can you bring the 2 together and that has not worked the way, especially members of the green party thought it would work out like initially in 2015. and so i think it also hasn't worked as badly though, as some conservative pundits are saying, like i looked up the numbers today. and after 6 years of being here, 64 percent. 5 of people who are, who were refugees do work. so there is like a positive trend or after 7 years. i think there is a positive trend,

but it's sort of not enough to keep a society that is already under stress and positive about refugee immigration. certainly as a process for sure. now we have a few more minutes left and i'd like to look into the future, which is always difficult on us. this has a whole all been very grim right. looking into the future. how optimistic are you about the future of jeremy and his role in the world as well? well, i think we have proven in the past. we've been pretty good in engineering crisis. i mean, at the end of the night this, we also managed to get out of this sick man of euro phase. and so i, i would hope that we are able to draw all the necessary consequences. i think we need to maybe complain a bit less and maybe be a bit more optimistic about the future that would already help. and i think we,

we would need to cancel out who's, who's not only, you know, talking reality nice, but also addressing the problems, telling people what has to be done and then just have to execute actually the, the necessary measures which will be necessary to adopt to a rapidly changing world, a world data, certainly watching a catch at. do you think this, let's say more humbled version of germany could also be a good thing. and then i'm also the courses in the looking back as the store in germany has been, has been declared that several times of a you know, a stagnating economy when the slowing down. and it's always kind of like this big ocean line. uh, you know, of an economy that moves very slowly and the moves towards the crisis and that's difficult to turn around. but equally, it does move very slowly and those type of thing to,

to sort things out. i think the problem is that the, the quite often we, you know, be, we've talked about some of these issues already. and kind of the ideal gets in the way of, of actually looking at what needs to be done and, and we end up basically we put additions, arguing among themselves about the kind of ideas that they want. and actually in reality, the things that are necessary to, to get close to it rather than directly to it. and also along the way, i think lots of people feel literally left behind. you know, this phrase is often used as a cliche, but it is definitely an issue and we'll see how that unfolds in this ocean liner. we at least we 3 here are. thank you so much talk 3 guess. thank you so much to you for watching. remember, you can always watch our youtube video searching for dw. i'll see you next time. take care by the

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business. the domain use live from the land. ukraine suffers one of the deadliest attacks since the start of the russian invasion. dozens of civilians, including children, are killed as the village and the east of the country faces a missile strike. also coming up the building up the wall will resume a policy reversed old from us. president joe biden will allow the construction of more barriers along the southern border to prevent migrant crossings from next.