the around the world more than 130000000 people us we all mine because no one should have to make up your own mind dw, may feel mine's the hello and welcome to another exciting edition of the 77 percent. the show where we talk with and to each other about issues affecting us zombie a past a mental health little in 2910. but it's implementation is still touchy. in this weeks treat debate, the 77 percent heads to the soccer to find out why, despite the little people who have mental health problems,

can't get the help they need. take a look. the depression, bipolar disorder, mental health issues like these are seen as the boot topics in many african societies with limited access to medical health care services, young africans to struggling with that mental health i left to their own devices. the dw 77 percent is, is that'd be precisely the 2nd to look at this silent if we didn't make circle satellite appear. me, of course, talk to the people at the heart of its advocacy. and i'm going to start off with here, mr. benjamin who has 10 years experience of course, talking about mental health. first of all just gave us an overview of the mental health situation here in zambia. we have most of us, it is highly centralized and the 2nd on the services um uh, we have a government institutions and of private practice coming up. and we have a number of institutions that are also providing uh like telephone counseling

services. just to make sure that the access to mental health services is made available, accessible and affordable, even to those why not within the 2nd? all right, let me just come to uh, number tom out here. benjamin has been in the advocacy for over 10 years. you start to just do as a goal, tell us what has been your focus. is it that for the past decade, a lot of work has not been done in this, that made you want to start to own a drug as the as well. so my focus has been on raising mental health and wellness and ending the stigma that surrounds mental health. because in the past, uh, people have been glued to or you know, have stuck to these misconceptions about mental health as such as the belief that mental illness is occurs or, you know, it's the one position. so my focus has been to the bunk. those miss and make people realize that mental illness is something that can attack anyway. and we have duncan

here who yourself has experienced this lives. talk to us about the experience with mental health. how is that phase of your life? like i struggled with depression and anxiety for over 12 years in that moment and i became suicide. but the age of 10. and at the age of 16, i studied attempting suicide. i did my, i did, migrant and dick somewhere at the age of 6, which i develop souls and my leaps. you know, sometimes when i, when, if i go to school at home, my friends would love for me that because policy and glad to even come out of my lips. so, so i, i received rejection from there and coming from a broken home as well. so i felt i had low self esteem and out my on so i had to kick me as a way old file was so much scared of the future because the opposite point of my life, the doctor told me that i might have been called blind because of the migrant, a dick which i started to fix my eyes. so i sat down and i, i thought,

what's the in the future? and we suggest that we things where because we struggled so much during the fun meeting with mom and dad. separated. we went through so much by 9 chevy. so the i was no, any form of hope for me. what about the family, your images surrounding? you understand what you're going through. i know they did not understand. okay. let me just come to mom here briefly. she is duncan small, a mom, if you could just tell us how you feel after realizing that your child was actually struggling with mental health. and you cannot really pin point that that was actually what he was going through for a minute. no, none of the united states had left up with up to watch, but the women and update the news over to my maintenance of local supply. the number was, and i've done some guys the by difficult day, the funding is to me to use the think the i need to meet, i'm must wishing,

i mean is, will be time. this will be indeed date was that visit with the data by me enough and it was it by and then depending to my phone is i'm reading the case. did you receive any sort of help during this phase? i mean, if i did in the, the sad part is, uh, if i knew if i knew that i was struggling some inc, toyotas, i had no idea what to mean to help with these. let me just come back to you quickly, bench. i mean, when we're looking at some of the causes some suicidal causes that are actually result in just some of the, some mental health issues with somebody. what are some of those that you've encountered? so the most common causes of mental health issues and possibly talk about that increased substance abuse, alcohol, and drug abuse in young people. but we also want to emphasize on the aspect of what we call the bible psycho social. so some individuals that is already brothers, crappy dispos, why they are born in families where there is a significant list of family members being treated or under the investment that you're in this district size would perpetuate the the yes and eventually, you know,

later on episode that just now someone would need psychological and you know, i have, i'm a college go stop by during integration. let me just come quickly to apply to here, who of course talks about a lot of social issues. and you are port m e z, she n voice of the voice less. how do you even see the issue of mental health in zambia? i think the, the, the conversation around mental health is from the one of the exclusive compositions . you can find such compositions in poor communities. why do you think it's, it's like that to you? i'll tell you. the poor people have no excuse for what if i've been seen in mind, if you're down at school, you'll say, and you're just down. if you, if you, if you try to eyes, nobody would know that you're too much sized you up. most of these kids lose your parents when they're young, and most of these kids experience so much without nobody paying attention to them. so these composition is, is exclusive to us in class of people that have an opportunity to even understand

leaving. next is this conversation around mental health. and we come to duncan quickly add to just take us through that, that state of mind to really what was it when you were going through, what was it that you felt that you need, that way you're communicating through your actions, your emotions that people were feeling very difficult to understand and grew up. how did that make you feel? um, so i showed all of the science of suicide to my family, the people that i was leaving always. but nobody could be able to recognize my mental state. so i had to withdraw from people i, i lived in the life and i was very shy. i had low self esteem as well. i also could talk much about, they seemed right more so much about die, you know, be the only solution there on your way out. so i showed all those signs. sometimes i took to maybe spiritual people, but they told me, let's pray about it. so i felt least understood and i felt the only way out to just

in my life, i mean, you talked about um, seeking for spiritual help as well. don't let me just come to dr. francisco here. tell us, how is the situation of medical access when it comes to treatment services? mental health is a health presentation like any other health presentation. thus, if an individual feels like they've got a mental health issue or condition or problem, they should go to the nearest mental health center. just like we go to the nearest health center for a headache. for hypertension that bit is h i v, this is not the case. yeah. you, we are in the only by the way, the early mental health hospital with this china i this is the only one we have in insomnia. is that correct? allow me to correct. that's the go ahead. so it's the 2, sorry. psychiatric hospital is the final referral hospital when it comes to mental health that we think was the very like the center of excellence when it comes to psychiatric practice. but it's mental health, really embedded in your primary health care system. this is what the question is. i

think this was something that we're close to, to investing in. and i believe this is not something that is unique to them. yeah. it's actually a global issue. i think for a long time mental health has been sidelined in the practice of medicine, but i you know, excuse in no activation. yeah. because we're trying to move to answer a major area that was thought that is with primary health care is awareness and says size. they said as you have heard from them, a tom a from down can even from page. i mean even pill out to me. so, and we need to reach out to the community. so 1st we all know strategy has been improving awareness state vision. there are mental health outcomes. after that, i will come back to what exactly you are doing moving forward, but for now we've established that that is a problem is i spoke about that briefly at least introduce yourself. yeah. maybe how much is that? got you? nice. the some other things that we want to tackle is. yeah, and we want to improve on. it's not just about talking and coming on t v and making sure. but what we're going to send to the would be. and what we want

to achieve as africa as them. yeah. is that we want mental health to be if i take $25.00 days, so right now it is not a priority so much or should i do? yeah. on this, i'll say to my boy, yes, because i'm and that's good for a mental health patient. they'll drive the sponsor efficient to suffering from casa and not me. and why? because he's not the priority, but let me just come back to dr. francisco, he, i'll come back to you that he said it is not a priority for this country mental health. i will big to defy one as i am speaking right now here. if you compare it maybe to other conditions like h, i v t b, we to well funded and we have many partners finding that we it looked like the ministry is only prioritizing those areas with that's not the case. we have many international partners on board that are funding those activities. so it to make an

a field of medicine like mental health, which doesn't have many partners look like it's been neglected. okay. and further, on top of that, i know you said we're going to talk about some of the things that we have to do to come back to that later. because i am still trying to understand if it's that it's really been prioritize. and i'm going to come to you duncan here, would you say it has really been prioritized. you've mentioned that having enough partners that could provide has also sounds like there's not much interest invested in that. if you would want to just come in for me. my comment on back is that i feel this more that can be done because for example, i struggled with depression and anxiety for 12 years. i was a young person in school. i never buy the, i don't know, but then i never saw anything about mental health on tv this day. you're seeing that it's been given that attention and but then why is it like that? because i feel if i had people that came to my school to talk about mental health

out of different it's knowing what i'm struggling with and out reached out and seek for help. okay. as an active is the also have a platform, right? do you have a blog is backorder podcast? how do you send the communication around mental health? because of course the media is very important in that course said, okay, so on my radio podcast i, i usually include professionals and also people we've lived experience. please allow me to contribute to the question that you had as to why. yeah, one with a mentor because a period i don't agree. but honestly speaking we only see the government doing things during these special days like suicide prevention day and mental health day . and then even when we go to these hospitals that the claim help people with them into hills, there's a little stigma you'll find that i go in there with a mental problem. and the doctor is actually going to talk to me and laugh at me. and there's a single protection the police also, you know, make fun of people with mental health issues. and would you report that to nobody

takes that seriously. so definitely is quite a prayer for a lot to would you agree on that? i do agree with no mama, i know. so that's i think that the claim that we need to raise awareness easy is a lie because there's no need for you to raise awareness when you don't have the facilities of the hospitals. it change uh people to, to work on the, on and on, on the, on the program. what i think is because if you raise awareness, you're raising the demand. so now you raise the demand of people to go to the hosp to is always going to treat them. if you don't have facilities that what tends to these people, then where are they going to be? let me come back to your doctor because uh, i think that united most agreement or statement to yeah is the fact that the people also need to attend to people struggling with mental health. i'm not really dad. some have the papers or the degree, but they're not employed in the system. why is that? so indeed, we have a lot of work to do when it comes to mental health that they would not deny. we have

a lot of work to do and it's an upcoming field in medicine and in health below valley . go buddy, i should emphasize that. and i think as i'm getting the regent, i think we're doing pretty well, though allow me to do and predict what's the indicator for that. we have silver projects, mental health is a month. those areas of fields in health that we're factoring in. the raise, a very good concern about the health facilities allow me to educate my plan on this as well as the public. let me take advantage of this platform when, when we go for health practice or medical practice, you know, that's for every pro 5 medical health practice, you have to rotate through psychiatry to mental health is part of our education system. and this is something that we've prioritized that's to ensure that everyone who graduates in the health sector should have very tight that's through psychiatry does belong to a button. i'm a tama, what any individual comes to health facility they should get. they mutual mental

health, all of us medical health personnel have been trained as a country and mental health wanted to order to change what the doctor said. so being able to, uh, being trained to diagnose an illness does not mean teaching that unit. okay? yes. so the able to see that they but you know that, but do they have the power, the necessary tools and is that equipment to treat? because if they say that change to diagnose it, and then what's the point? i mean, how many, how many people do we have in the areas that have been treated for mental health problems? i think that is what i wanted to raise again to hear it. the people are that they can diagnose, but if the facility is not giving the right treatment, then what's the point? this comes back to us. the on us is on, on every health plus personnel to pick up the mentor and prior ties, mental health. and this is what we keep encouraging for mental health. what is key is a good history taking. remember, it's psychological, it's information, it's social. this is what we aim to train. are you really dealing with the, with,

with the psycho social aspect of it as well? because then why are we having suicide? suicide is every of the many reasons why one would reach to level suicide and the many factors to presentational. suicide. first one, the individual talked of the 1st is the individual able to open up to anyone? how is it portraying, remember, even the most of the most people in the world with so many people around them have committed suicide. they've got access to all the best, mental specific, his best mental book, those psychotherapy, psychiatrist on their team. okay. but still come into the side with a smile on the 5th, i'm going to come by because duncan didn't mention that in the beginning, he did not have a place to go to. and even where he went to hospitals or places they cannot really tell of what his product. well, this is what we're trying to know my life duncan always saying that there hasn't been some sort for no, but are we working on them? yes, i'll come back to you, but let me just jump into mcdonald quickly before i come back. you are studying secretary of telling me how is the enrollment of this field in your school and how

many people do you have in your classes just to know the stat numbers here. so the moment is not so difficult in my class guarantee. we're about 36, you know, as much as people me want to study psychiatry, i guess the interest is growing slowly. but then, you know, even when we were getting into this field for my students would tell us that we are just wasting all the time. you bit to assign something else to do because the government doesn't employee as many. so, you know, even knowledge or sometimes advise us that we should create our own employment. create your own mental health facility because the government does not employed people with the private and very much expensive us. what exactly that is going to be exact. let me just come to you quickly here. yes. tell me what, what, what do you want to come into that? so the problem that we're having is the information gap. most people don't know about mental health, right? what's the, this oh, ministry, or types towards mental health. so many beliefs and misconceptions that need to be

broken down 1st. so we need everyone here, the advocates and stuff like that. what they really need to do is get to the graft gressick. because of the moment it's regarded as something that spiritual someone may be going through. duncan mentioned, right. he was going to be a mental health challenge. when he went to people to ask about what was going on, people didn't know what to tell him. they didn't know what was going on, right? that just shows us the real problem that we need to address, which is the information gap. there's an information away and this gap and again, so when it's talking about tradition of, you know, resorting to traditional means. i mean, this is a medical issue, but so this, you know, he does make a major part of its workforce. i in fact regulating that all patient. how do you oversee this? that's what in your own, i brought up the issue of just a vision of the way and it's, it's important. a lot of stigma that we're seeing is because of the lack of knowledge. but then what bags the highest responsibility they said is the primary duty background. this is why you should have started. we have to understand that

i'm just cultural context. that's the 2 aspects is the spiritual aspect of them because i'm do as a christian nation. secondly, we have the traditional aspect as well. so even when we talk about mental health, mental health has a lot to do with the least psychological social perception to life. so meaning, even as we approach diverse individuals, we have to factor in that. so this is the possible way you are actually looking for during the day we are considering everything at everyone and we're getting everyone on board. traditional people like getting them on board spiritual people are getting them on board. academics not much, but i'm on top of what guessing the board mental health personally now we're getting them on board. what calling everyone together, it's everyone's problem this, that's what we use and comes in the home. it starts from the home. interesting. let me just come to benjamin quickly. do you agree to that point? of course managing the traditional healers away. so the the, the, the bio met if you like. do you think that this could be a possible pathway to this issue? it shouldn't be a possible past what it should be part of it,

possibly before everything else, we belong to a community or a system. kind of guessing we started with a funding to you need to write if they have the additional issues of values, which they perhaps send a value if they promote shooting that just about recording progress to, to know a push to start. okay. and treatment. yeah. oh, i'm dr. you wanted to clarify a point? yes. so as much as there's a spiritual, cultural, traditional context, remember, who still have to be fair when it comes to the medical treatment code. let's give, let me give an example of something called when like a tv, a lot of people use that in denial about a tv and those sick alternative treatment, traditional or treatment pres. but after some time, we still console them to come to a point to realize that please, you also need to add to your thoughts, reach me at the end of a medical guidance. and that's why i ask, why do you draw the line? and then how are you trying to make people understand that at some point, this is a medical, you know, a medical issue, a window, maybe the spiritual aspect might be there as most of you upset. but where do you

draw this line going forward? yes, so i think even in practice, we tried to make an effort to do that. but at the same time being very respectful of the appliance opinion and view and perception, but still being very objective, you know, communication and also still highlighting that medical aspect. let me just come back to duncan before i come there, you wanted to say something. i would love to, to ask the company to do also a special to include advocates in optic visa as well to also give them we pots the, we have the kennel. so begin to reach out very well and if i'm, i can just also tell us because someone mentioned very important point that in this and a holistic approach. and that means everybody, the system has to be functioning. so tell me i'm going forward. how has a struggle of duncan? your son had changed your perception? mm. i mean, god, god divides my body into the run. now, was it i'm gonna run. right? and i got the and ready my i do own thing as the web and let me read each that the

well known one. so in a couple, you know, set and that we know i want to go go on it and i will go and get the forms and send you the, the number on the bottom. and then that's the goal needed. i step one and i'm going from that johnny, which to the chat. so buddy's wonderful was the case. i'm a my goal with my quote to attend to the run. now my quarter off and go down to that on. what do you see a couple who do i live in a wyndham, h a z, mccord. i'm got this week. i'm running up a full p was up as a what do we don't want to access the site? let me just come to know my time because someone mentioned that the 2019 mental health of law you had the act has been passed, right. which means it's mounting to low. so i mean, it also has to get the full protection non discrimination of people struggling with mental health. but is this a progressive attempt on the side of the government looking at where you've come from? the last that you had from my perspective? no. when you go to the police station and report something,

the moment you say you are a mental patient, you get read acute. the police don't take those things seriously. it's like these laws have been passed, but then not being implemented. i am for lack of a better way to be disappointed for to hear that you have devaluing that mental health act to that level. we've been uploaded for that mental health act, and that was a huge step for mental health because it's protect it per months. but the advocates of what she's saying is, is it the beginning flu shot in terms of the implementation aspect of it because that's the bad and the law is still meaningless. it is the we have a lot of political button. i'll put them in secretary, in the, in the health for all the major programs that are being facilitating this mentally feel st. governmental thoughts. something else a lot. it's a wrong at the to the government is the primary duty there. yeah. you, we hear you, but we are helping with 1st. if it doesn't policy, we need to understand that we can compare mental health to other areas in health right now, it will be, i'm, you know, a month. we're still on the way forward just way for the see why raising your hand

to how you offered solutions. you, you don't obviously my index and the government doesn't have the system in place or have and then very unreliable. and i don't, i think you would honestly as a test to that. so my question is that, how are we offering solutions when you're doing dr. that the population you're working with? you don't know, you don't know what, what population is actually affected by stigma with, with augusta mentors, personnel. you know, not size, little population cannot access or cannot, cannot afford mental health services. are you saying this going forward? should be a way for what to break this down to make it easy, pretty much what i'm saying is that before we can actually go go get photos to get the data for us to have someone here. and then yes, dr. yes, i think in closing, i would really like us to have an understanding of i understand as an advocate, it's not my job to do the, the government's job. i'm here to hold the government accountable for way. they're a gaps and way things are not happening. and i've like, this is getting modeled in this conversation. so i think going forward to advocate

got that mentioned. yeah. it's not my job to do the government stuff as or not. i think that's clear as to why at the front desk i will having the conversation, of course, around the government is not doing it because you need to push and do a little bit more and you've had unreliable data on some of the other issues that emanated from the government side, what are you doing towards the issue of mental health now going forward? there's a lot of training that's coming up for me to help us. so now we're doing a little supervisory elementary mentoring visits when it comes to mental health across the country. then in terms of so stay the same though in the top part of it as well. while looking into that. then of course, one of the important aspect that i'd like to highlight, we're calling for apartments. what has just been established is that mental health is real, mental health struggles are real and definitely exist in zambia as well. i know that it can be too much to do so much, especially when it's supposed to be the work of the government. but as people what we can do as well is to be more empathetic to one another. show a lot of show kindness spread, smiles,

way you can because you never know what people are going through. this has been to 77 percent of life from zambia and to thank you so much for watching the that said from us this week. if you enjoy the show, then you don't want to miss out on some more great content from the 77 percent. pay us a visit on the instagram and get you to the next time. good bye for now. the, the,

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