africa in 60 minutes on d. w. what secrets lie behind these discovered benches and 360 degrees and explore fascinating. both heritage selling. d w world heritage 360. now the hello and welcome to another exciting addition of the 77 percent. the show where we talk with and to each other about issues affecting us via passed a mental health little in 2910. but it's implementation is still touchy. in this week's treat debate, the 77 percent hits to the soccer to find out why, despite the little people who have mental health problems,

can't get the help they need. take a look. the depression, bipolar disorder, mental health issues like these are seen as the boot topics in many african societies with limited access to medical health care services, young africans to struggling with the mental health i left to their own devices. the dw 77 percent is that'd be precisely the 2nd to look at this silent epidemic circle. satellite repeat, i make, of course, talk to the people at the heart of its advocacy. and i'm going to start off with here, mr. benjamin who has 10 years experience of course, talking about mental health. first of all, just give us an overview of the mental health situation here in zambia. we have most of us say this is highly centralized and the 2nd on the services um uh we have a government institutions and private practice coming up. and we have a number of institutions that are also providing uh like telephone counseling

services. just to make sure that the access to mental health services is made available, accessible and affordable, even to those why not within the 2nd? all right, let me just come to uh, number tom out here. benjamin has been in the advocacy for over 10 years. you started just 2 years ago. tell us what has been your focus is it that for the past beckett, a lot of work has not been done in this. that made you want to start to own a delicacy as well. so my focus has been on raising mental health and wellness and ending the stigma that surrounds mental health. because in the past, people have been glued to or you know, have stuck to these misconceptions about mental health as such as the belief that mental illness is a curse or, you know, it's the one position. so my focus has been to the bunk those myths and make people realize that mental illness is something that can talk. anyone. and we have duncan

here who yourself has experienced this lives. talk to us about the experience with mental health. how was that phase of your life? like i struggled with depression and anxiety for over 12 years. in that moment i became suicide, but the age of 10. and at the age of 16, i studied attempting suicide. i did my democratic somewhere at the age of 6, which i developed the souls and my leaps. you know, sometimes when i, when, if i go to school at home, my friends with a lot for me that because policy and by the didn't come out of my lips. so i received rejection from there and coming from a broken home as well. so i felt i had low self esteem and out my on. so i had to kept me as a way of finding out so much scared of the future. because the opposite point of my life, the doctor told me that i might have been called blind because of the migrant dick, which i started to fix my eyes. so i sat down and i, i thought,

what's the in the future? and we just that with things where because we struggled so much during the fun meeting with mom and dad separated. we went through so much by 9 chevy. so the i was no, any form of hope for me. what about the family, your images surrounding? you understand what you're going through. i know they did not understand. okay, let me just come to mom here. briefly. she is duncan small, a mom. if you could just tell us how you feel, after realizing that your child was actually struggling with mental health, and you cannot really pin point that that was actually what he was going through for a minute. no, none of the united states had left up with up to which but let me know and update the good news over to my maintenance or frequency by the number was and i've done some guys the by difficult day. the funding is to me to use the same feed i need to meet. i must wishing, i mean is,

will be done. these will be indeed beach was up as a, with the date if i'm enough and it was it by and then deeper into my phone is i'm reading the case. did you receive any sort of help during this phase? i mean, if i did, and they decide part is, uh, if i knew if i knew that i was struggling to make toys, i had no idea what i mean to help with these. let me just come back to you quickly bench. i mean, when we are looking at some of the causes some suicidal causes that are actually result into some of the, some mental health issues with them being what are some of those that you've encountered. so the most common causes of mental health issues and possibly talk about that increased substance abuse, alcohol and drug abuse in young people. but we also want to emphasize on the aspect of what we call the bio psychosocial. so, so many individuals that is already balestreri dispos, why they are born in families where there is a significant list of family members being treated or under the investment that you're in us distressed as a webpage with the the yes and eventually you know,

later on episode that just now someone would need psychological and you know, i have the chemical that you could stop by during integration. let me just come quickly to apply to here, who of course talks about a lot of social issues. and you are port m, e z. she and voice of the voice less. how do you each see the issue of mental health in zambia? i think the, the, the conversation around mental health is from the one of the exclusive compositions . you can find such compositions in poor communities. why do you think it's, it's like that to you? i'll tell you. the poor people have no excuse for what have been seen in mind. if you're down at school, you'll say, if you're just out, if you, if you, if you interpret dies, nobody would know that you're doing sized, you have most of these kids lose your parents when they're young. and most of these kids experience so much without nobody paying attention to them. so these composition is, is exclusive to us in class of people that have an opportunity to even understand

leaving next, se, se, combination, their own mental you let me come to, you don't come quickly to just take us through that, that state of mind to really what was it when you were going through, what was it that you felt that you need, that way you're communicating through your actions, your emotions that people were feeling very difficult to understand and grew up? how did that make you feel? so i showed all the science of suicide to my family, the people that i was leaving always, but nobody could be able to recognize my mental state. so i had to withdraw from people i. i lived in the life and i was very shy. i had low self esteem as well. i also could talk much about, they seemed right most so much about die, you know, be the only solution there on your way out. so i showed all those signs. sometimes i took to maybe spiritual people, but they told me it's pre about it. so i felt least understood and i felt the only

way out to suggest in my life. i mean, you talked about um, seeking for spiritual help as well. don't let me just come to dr. francisco here. tell us how is the situation of medical access when it comes to treatment services? mental health is a health presentation like any other health presentation. thus, if an individual feels like they've got a mental health issue or condition or problem, they should go to the nearest mental health center. just like we go to the nearest health center for a headache. for a type of patient that bit is h, i v. this is not the case. yeah. you we are in the only by the way the oily mental health hospital with this china i this is the only one we have in insomnia. is that correct? allow me to correct. that's the go ahead. so it's the 2. sorry, psychiatric hospital is the final referral hospital when it comes to mental health . so we think was the very like the center of excellence when it comes to psychiatric practice. what is mental health really embedded in your primary health

care system? this is what the question is. i think this was something that will cause them to be investing in. and i believe this is not something that is unique to them guys, actually a global issue. i think for a long time mental health has been sidelined in the practice of medicine, but i, you know, excuse in the, you know, just like to ration. yeah. because we're trying to move to answer a major area that was thought that is with primary health care is awareness. as this size they said, as you have heard from them, a tom a from down can even from page. i mean, even pull out the domains and we need to reach out to the community. so 1st we all know strategy has been improving awareness. state vision are mental health. oh, going back to that, i will come back to what exactly you are doing moving forward, but for now we've established that that is a problem is, let's talk about that briefly. i don't lose introduce yourself. yeah, i remember how much is that? got you nice to some of the things that we want to talk about is. yeah. and you want to improve on. it's not just about talking and coming on t v and making sure. but what we're going to send to the would be and what we want

to achieve as africa, as that idea, is that we want mental health to be if i take $25.00 days. so right now it is not a priority so much or should i do? yeah. on this i will say through my boy. yes, because i'm and that's good for a mental health patient. they will drive the sponsor efficient to suffering from gus on know to me and why? because he's not a priority, but let me just come back to dr. francisco, he, i'll come back to you that he said it is not a priority for this country mental health. i will big to defy one as i am speaking right now here. if you compare it maybe to other conditions like h, i v t b, which a well funded and we have many partners finding that we it looked like the ministry is only prioritizing those areas with. that's not the case. we have many international partners on board that are funding those activities. so it will make

an a field of medicine like mental health, which doesn't have many partners look like it's been neglected. okay. and further, on top of that, i know you said we're going to talk about some of the things that we'll come back to that later because i am still trying to understand if it's that it's really been prioritize. and i'm going to come to you duncan here, would you say it has really been prioritized. you've mentioned that having enough partners that could provide has also sounded like there's not much of interest invested in that. if you would want to just come in for me. my comment on that is that i feel this more that can be done because for example, i struggled with depression and then factory for 12 years. i was a young pacing in school. i knew by the i don't know, but then i never saw anything. a bulk mean to house on tv this day. you're seeing that it's been given that attention and but then why is it like that? because i feel if i add people that came to my school to talk about mental health

out of different it's knowing what i'm struggling with and out reached out and seek for help. ok. as an active is the also have a platform, right? do you have a blog, is that going to put test? how do you send the communication to run mental health? because of course the media is very important in that course. 8. okay, so on my radio podcast i, i usually include professionals and also people with the lived experience. please allow me to contribute to the question that you had as to why. yeah, when with the middle of the is a period, i don't agree. but honestly speaking, we only see the government doing things during these special days like suicide prevention day and mental health day. and then even when we go to these hospitals that the claim help people with them into hills, there's a little stigma you'll find that i go in there with a mental problem. and the doctor is actually going to talk to me and laugh at me. and there's a single protection the police also, you know, make fun of people with mental health issues. and would you report that to nobody

takes that seriously. so definitely start a prayer for a lot to would you agree on that? i do agree with no mama, i know. so that's, i think that the claim that we need to raise awareness is, is a lie because there's no need for you to raise awareness when you're doing tabular facilities, the or speech goals that change uh, people to, to work on the, on and on, on the program, what i think is because if you raise awareness, you're raising the demand. so now you raise the demand of people to go to the hospital. it's always going to treat them. if you don't have facilities that what tends to these people then where are they going to be? let me come back to your doctor because uh, i think the united most agreement or statement to yeah, is the fact that the people also need to attend to people struggling with mental health and really death. some have the papers or the degree, but they're not employed in the system. why is that? so indeed, we have a lot of work to do when it comes to mental health that they would not deny. we have a lot of work to do and it's an upcoming field in medicine and in health below valley

. go buddy, i should emphasize that. and i think as i'm getting the regent, i think we're doing pretty well, though allow me to do and predict what's the indicator for that. we have to of, of projects, mental health is a month. those areas of fields in health that we're factoring in the raise, a very good concern about the health facilities allow me to educate. my problem is, as well as the public, let me take advantage of this platform. when, when we go for health practice or medical practice, you know, that's for every pro 5 medical health practice, you have to rotate through psychiatry to mental health is part of our dictation system. and this is something that we've prioritized it to ensure that everyone who graduates the health sick the should have replaced it through psychiatry does belong to a button. i'm a tama, what any individual comes to health facility they should get. they mutual mental

health, all of us medical health personnel have been trained is a country and mental health wanted to order to change what the doctor said. so being able to uh, being trained to diagnose an illness does not mean shooting that unit. okay. yes. so the able to see that they but you know that, but do they have the power, the necessary tools and is that you meant to treat because you're facing that trains to diagnose it? then what's the point? i mean, how many, how many people do we have in the areas that have been treated for mental health problems? i think that is what i wanted to raise again. here is the people i that they can diagnose. but if the facility is not giving the right treatment, then what's the point? this comes back to us. the on us is on, on every mit health 1st personnel to pick up the mentor and prioritize mental health. and that is what we keep encouraging for mental health. what is key is a good history taking. remember, it's psychological, it's information, it's social. this is what we aim to train. are you really dealing with the, with,

with the psycho social aspect of it as well? because then why are we having suicide of suicide is every of the many reasons why one would reach to a level of suicide and the many fucked as to present patient of suicide. first one, the individual fact of the 1st is the individual able to open up to anyone. how is it before training? remember, even the most of the most people in the world with so many people around them have committed suicide. they've got access to all the best, mental specific, his best mental book, those psychotherapy, psychiatrist on their team. okay. and just to commit suicide with a smile on the 5th, i'm going to come by because duncan didn't mention that in the beginning, he did not have a place to go to. and even where he went to hospitals or places they cannot really tell of what his problem well this is what we're trying to know. my life duncan was saying that there hasn't been some sort for no, but are we working on them? yes, i was coming back to you, but let me just come to the mcdonald quickly before i come back. as you are studying, secretary of telling me how is the enrollment of this field in your school and how

many people do you have in your classes? just to know the stat numbers here. so the enrollment is not so difficult in, in my class guarantee. we're about 36 in as much as people me want to study psychiatry. i guess the interest is growing slowly. but then, you know, even when we were getting into this field for my students would tell us that we are just wasting all the time you bit to assign something else to do. because the government doesn't employee as many. so you know, even knowledge or sometimes advise us that we should create our own employment, create your own mental health facility because the government does not employed people with the private and very much expensive us. what exactly that is going to be exact. let me just come to you quickly here. yes. tell me what, what, what do you want to come into that? so the problem that we're having is the information got most people don't know about mental health, right? was this, oh, ministry are types towards mental health. so many beliefs and misconceptions that

need to be broken down 1st. so we need everyone here, the advocates and stuff like that. what they really need to do is get to the guest crestwood because of the moment it's regarded as something that spiritual someone may be going through. duncan mission, right? he was going to be a mental health challenge. when he went to people to ask about what was going on, people didn't know what to tell him. they didn't know what was going on. right? that just shows us the real problem that we need to address, which is the information gets. there is an information away and this gap and again, so when it's talking about tradition of, you know, resorting to traditional means. i mean, this is a medical issue. but so these, you know, he does make a major part of its workforce. are you in fact of regulating that all but ation? how do you oversee this? that's what in your own, i brought up the issue of just a vision of the way and it's, it's important. a lot of stigma that we're seeing is because of the lack of knowledge. but then what bags the highest responsibility they said is the primary duty background. this is why you should have started. we have to understands,

i'm just costs are context. there's the 2 aspects. there's the spiritual aspect of them because i'm do as a christian nation. secondly, we have the traditional aspect as well. so even when we talk about mental health, mental health has a lot to do with the least psychological social perception to life. so meaning, even as we approach diverse individuals, we have to factor in that. so this is the possible way you are actually looking for during the day we are considering everything at everyone and we're getting everyone on board tray. do some of people like getting them on board spiritual people like getting them on board. academics not much, but i'm on top of what guessing the board mental health wrestling out with getting them on board. what calling everyone together? it's everyone's problem this, that's what we use and comes in the home. it starts from the home. interesting. let me just come to benjamin quickly. do you agree to that point? of course managing the traditional healers away. so the, the, the, the bio mets, if you like. do you think that this could be a possible pathway to this issue? it shouldn't be possible past what it should be part of it,

possibly before everything else, we belong to a community or a system. and a vested, we started with a funding to you need to write down the additional issues of values which they perhaps send a value if they promote shooting that just by truck waiting for this to turn or a push to talk. okay. and treatment. yeah. oh, i'm dr. you wanted to clarify a point? yes. so as much as this, the spiritual, cultural, traditional context, remember, who still have to be fair when it comes to the medical treatment code? let's give, let me give an example of something come on like a tv. a lot of people use that in denial about a tv and they'll seek alternative treatment for additional treatment. pres, but after some time we still console them to come to a point to realize that please, you also need to adhere to act, reach me at the end of a medical guidance. and that's why i ask, why do you draw the line? and then how are you trying to make people understand that at some point, this is a medical, you know, a medical issue. it went to maybe the spiritual aspect might be there as most of

you upset. but where do you draw this line going forward? yes, so i think even in practice, we tried to make an effort to do that. but at the same time being very respectful of the appliance opinion and view and perception, but still being very objective, you know, communication and also still highlighting that medical aspect. let me just come back to duncan before i come there, you wanted to say something. i would love to, to ask the company to do. also a special to include advocates and up to be says, well to also give them we pots the, we have to kennesaw begin to reach out very well. and if i'm, i can just also tell us, because someone mentioned very important point that in this and a holistic approach. and that means everybody, the system has to be functioning. so tell me i'm going forward. how has a struggle of duncan? your son had changed your perception. i mean, god, god, devise my body into the run now, was it i'm gonna run. right. and i got to be in do i didn't my,

i do own thing as the web. and let me read each that the well known one. so nick, up, we know that and that we know i want to go go on it and i will go and get the forms and send you the, the number on the bottom. and then that's the good one, it is actually the one to them go within that, tentative which to the chat. so buddy's joyful was the case. i'm a my goal with my goal to attend to 0. now my goal for me to go down to that on, what do you see is a couple who do i live in a, win them h a z mccord on, got sweet gum line up a full p was a physical to would you mind accessible site? let me just come to know my time because someone mentioned that the 2019 mental health of law you have the act has been passed, right. which means it's not into low. so i mean, it also has to get the full protection non discrimination of people struggling with mental health. but is this a progressive attempt on the side of the government looking at where you've come from? the last that you had from my perspective, know when you go to the police station and report something,

the moment you say you are a mental patient, you get read to cute. the police don't take those things seriously. it's like these laws have been passed, but then not being implemented. i am for lack of a better way to disappointed for to hear that you have to evaluate the mental health act to that level. we've been uploaded for that mental health act and that was a huge step for mental health because it's protect, it promotes the advocates and what you saying is, is it the beginning flu shot in terms of the implementation aspect of it because that's not bad. and the law is still meaningless. it is the we have a lot of political button. i'll put them in secretary, in the, in the health for all the major programs that i've been facilitating. this mentally feel, st. governmental thoughts, something else a lot. it's a wrong at the to the government is the primary duty there. yeah. you, we hear you, but we are helping with 1st. if it doesn't policy, we need to understand that we can compare mental health to other areas in health right now, it would be, i'm, you know, mom, we're still on the way forward just way forward. yes,

you were raising your hands. you how you offered a solution that you don't obviously my index in the government doesn't have the system in place or have and then very unreliable. and i don't, i think you would honestly have to adjust to that. so my question is that how are we offering solutions when you're doing ok you that the population you're working with, you don't know. you don't know what, what population is actually affected by stigma with, with augusta mentors, personnel. you don't know what size of the population cannot access or cannot, cannot afford mental health services. are you saying this going forward? should be a way for what to break this down to make it easy pretty much what i'm saying is that before we can actually go go get photos to get the data for us to someone here and then yes to doctor. yes. i think in closing, i would really like us to have an understanding of i understand as an advocate, it's not my job to do the, the government's job. i'm here to hold the government accountable for where there are gaps and way things are not happening. and i feel like this is getting modeled in this conversation. so i think going forward to advocate governments. it's not my

job to do the government stuff as or not. i think that's clear as to why at the front desk. well, having the conversation, of course around the government is not doing it because you need to push on do a little bit more and you've had a reliable data on some of the other issues that emanated from the government side . what are you doing towards the issue of mental health now going forward? there's a lot of training that's coming up for mental health personnel. we're doing a little supervisory, elementary mentoring visits when it comes to mental health across the country. then in terms of since the top part as well, we're looking into that then of course, one of the important aspect that i'd like to highlight, we are calling for parking. that's what has just been established has that mental health is real, mental health struggles are real and definitely exist in zambia as well. i know that it can be too much to do so much, especially when it's supposed to be the walk of the government. but as people what we can do as well is to be more empathetic to one another. show a lot of show kindness spread, smiles,

way you can because you never know what people are going through. this has been the 77 percent of life from zambia, and thank you so much for watching the that feed from us this week. if you enjoyed the show, then you don't want to miss out on some more great content from the 77 percent. pay us a visit on the instagram and you to a to the next time. good bye for now. the,

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