the minions of children of the world. going to school we ask why? because education makes the world make up your own mind. made for mines. the turkey is a longstanding member of nato with the alliance, the 2nd largest army. but its president is becoming an increasingly difficult partner, defending israel, a specialist praise and come us as liberators. that posted diplomatic challenge for germany as chancellor, as he prepared to receive the turkish leader. under outer ones, rule turkey has flexed its muscles near and far seeking to project power from the caucasus to the mediterranean, according both russia and china. the presidents,

autocratic policies at home, and is abrasive actions abroad or alienating partners. food on the less depend on hampton is turkey on a collision course with nato. today we're asking between nato and tomas what is, are the ones in the welcome to to the point. it is a great pleasure to greet our guest starting with the lab corp on. she is a visiting researcher at berlin, social sciences center, and she has also reported in the past for turkish media. i'm also very pleased to welcome to tell us of an aria seasoned international correspondent for germany suit georgia sites on he has been based in the middle east and recorded also from east envelope and with us in istanbul is blanche more maya she is an independent correspond bonded for both the turkish and german media also for dodge of ela. and

he does join us from this temple. welcome to you. like just before departing for a visit to germany, president out of one stepped up, his harsh rhetoric on the conflict in gaza, declaring is real to be quote, a terrorist state and more criminal. and calling the crisis a matter of cross and crescent. that practically sounds like holy warfare. what's behind all this? savannah? meaning no sense. he's being typical aren't on this. he has done this in the past. um, not just when israel is concerned, but he's speaking to domestic, constitute that that's his main target size. i mean, we have elections coming in turkey municipal elections next year. so he's trying to mobilize the base, consolidated in turkey, public opinion, opinion is very pro palistine in against israel. there's always this on ty,

isabel sentiments that he wants to, you know, sort of mobilize and i think he's also counting on the fact that fits. he will once again get away with it because he's always gotten away with it in terms of his relations with the west. he doesn't expect any repercussions from nature and from your penalized. and if through, let's tell us what you're hearing from people. there are these statements by otto on resonating with his political base, but also with other turkish citizens. well, actually as we are divided into 2 nations, we as we are a huge a polarized country at last, something says, vote for his audience. but forward for regular people, what against team it doesn't say as a deluxe set, of course, it's a pro palestinian a community in turkey, but as long as harsh sports are not being accepted by the whole community. and so that thomas, this rhetoric of this bashing of israel,

comes just about 6 weeks after the turkish and is really leaders actually met on the sidelines of the united nations general assembly in new york. and add one, held out the prospect of intensive cooperation between the 2. and he clearly had some very concrete economic goals in mind. so what's with the abrupt switch? what do we all know that as long as a very populous to leader and the relational this rather than talk, you have been district before. so as he's just riding the wave and the switching positions, i don't know if you can get so easily know because he said is or has no right of existence. but he's also not only concentrating on the trucks, population is also looking on the wider muslim world. and we all know that the perspective of the white and muslim world is different from the west. and you'll be, or german or united states perspective towards israel. so i think in the way to muslim world, he's probably say making points at the moment. let's take

a closer look at our other ones, abrupt switch from court, and use realtor bashing it and to promoting hate rather than the regional cooperation that he was seeking just 6 weeks ago. when never talk, just president out. one has spoken about the middle east, recently, he verbally attacked israel and the west israel. we will denounce you as a rule criminal in front of the whole world. you got the main culture. it's behind domestic unfolding, and garza is the west. how much? how much is not a terrorist organization, but a group as much as a dean defending the land to view the guy that was that go down the well with many of kentucky and coal south region. the west adder one makes no mention of the east riley victims of the how much the terror attacks someone connected to both the

palestinians and east royal adder one initially offered to mediate out of one person. the match is right aly prime minister netanyahu in september for the 1st time. but how serious will to you about this new friendship? experts have long bones that turkey has been a safe haven for him. mass members, as recently as july add a one received is my, you know, he is a political leader of the militant islam is tokenize ation, an incorrect pro palestinian and pro her mas. what is the turkish president's goal? let me go over to you do land and pick up on the final point that we heard in that report about turkey being a safe haven for a mouse. in fact, it has been described as my 2nd largest base of operations after gaza and is dental is a major possibly the major source of financing for her mouse operations. so would

you go so far as to say that without turkey support, how much would not have the capacity to launch operations of the kind that it did on october 7th? actually, that's not a fair commence, because if somebody might be just that for, for them to just be a political base, we know that they're being supplied by cuts out and by, you know, even so turkey is much induct induction case to keep is that a big issue for how much, but we know that all that will be shows most of the patients. what do you mean? somebody not gonna talk you later. thanks to let me ask whether either of our guests in the studio would disagree without assessment. i wouldn't disagree. i would agree, and if somebody has the main base of the airport position over the world, i mean from all the muslim, from all the muslim countries, people are based and assembled because there's no place to be at home because of the they can move around. so i think if you want to know who financially supports

you wrong, you have to i'm us, you have to look to iran 1st and then to cut the political support for sure. and out on the support in the muslim bill, the who, the movements all over the arrow bold, i'm us is an off spring of the muslim brotherhood. so it's more or less logical that he supports a mouse and is doing it now in a very loud way. do you like, is there an ideological affinity between the a k t party a everyone's party in turkey and him us? oh, yes, certainly. i mean, i don't have, i mean, isn't it? as to me, i said, or you'll also add on the system itself as he aspires to be the leader of the muslim world. well, of course, the muslim world is also divided in terms of political power, but he certainly is on the side with him us. and i think it is important to see that. i mean, he's on the one hand. he is the 1st who is rel politic with oldest anti is rarely back to the for example, he doesn't sanction israel. there are reports,

uninterrupted media of shipments from turkey. continuing to go to israel, you know, he's doing trade because, you know, he wants to live. so that's the way i put it, but then we also have to see the ideological side of it could be an ard on and that is, um, he definitely is a, you know, it's political, he's on as long as, and i think it's not just, i think we have to be careful about the character i says just against the current is really government, but that is a div sentiment also interpret society of um on titusville on ty semitism, which i think he also personally shares and he's playing, you know, so he's playing a game of both, that as long as, as i said earlier, he can't get away with us. you'll continue doing this. let me come back to the game of both with you. thomas. actually shortly after the october 7th attack by him us on israel. the other one said in a telephone call with german chancellor shots that he sees

a turkey as being ready to mediate in this conflict. and clearly that's part of the end that you talked about about being a leader in the islamic world in the region. how see now with his statements thoroughly disqualified himself for any mediating roll or, or his ties to her mouth, perhaps exactly what's needed? well, as i try to explain that ad one is with type that we extra situations. so he offered to me, do it, and i've done this time he offered to me did in ukraine. he's also really successful, but he's always offering because it sounds good. but and no, i'm, i'm, i think he stepped the red line. you know, to come to germany after you said a israel has a right of existence as a federal state. it will be quite difficult for him to get common ground to schultz . but he's playing that game quite quite systematically and bill. and if i can ask you, um it was mentioned uh by uh, by d like just now israel is

a very important economic partner for turkey. trade between the 2 is expensive and it's also expanding oil weapons. and at this, at that meeting in new york that i mentioned between that on yahoo and other one in late september turkey also held out the prospect of much stronger cooperation on tech and on uh and uh, and on energy as well. and there are 2 issues, it's so important in turkey nowadays. now we have the election on march and we are suffering because you're just going to be christ. because of both issues are going to not open that direct economical, financial war against israel. as you know, anything to reason is a huge crime. you will need to keep. and if you are calling the country as a federal country, like i said for you to have. and now every day term sheet time sheets are going from turkey. chevy and still carrying food, carrying federal from turkish costs to as well. so she is helping us clothing. he's

the 1st country. he's a think the reason. right. so as soon as i leave, so he just facing and using it for him through the politics, to be able to use the 1st time it. this is the speech stuff. so it's all just he kept cup of ice. he was a, when a turkish saturday has been stop 10 years, so we have new stuff, but he's male, the forces and step towards the still hoping to the same address. some was something with his own ships petroleum reserves. so it's just a game, a double game. do you like um explain something else that appears uh at least 2 outside eyes to be a contradiction. or the one condemns the bombing of gaza by israel, yet he regularly orders were planes to bomb kurdish territories in northern syria, including areas near the us troops that are battling isis. how does he rationalize that he doesn't have to?

because he's not asked these questions, but certainly not in turkey because he has talked to almost total control over the media. but also in other words, by the west. and i think that's one of the main to main fundamental problems here. we don't see coverage in the middle of say to nationally of what he's doing in northern siri up, which is under turkish occupation. so he spoke to applying actually another country against international law and of course, using, as he said, you know, bombing it. but as it is, and that's if you would ask him, he was customized that of counter terrorism because he considers the people id which you know, it represents the armed a kurdish groups in syria as opposed organization which is not shared by the west. and the us not by the you to, from his world we, it makes total sense because it's old terrorism, decruz arcturus and on israel is also right. that's how we characterizes it, of these kind of questions about because he doesn't have to explain any contradiction. she just says it's and does it, it is the west,

the meeting needs to hold him accountable for all of these, you know, he's violations of international law, but also his violation. so if you appeal a nissan north, so let's talk about the west in the form of nato, a. thomas, in fact, our other one is the only nato leader who has expressed open support of him by us. that has been widely reported and questions has been asked yet. nato secretary general strong about play that down this week saying uh, i quote, the terrorist to support for the terrorist group on the part of everyone poses no problem for nato because the alliance plays no role in the is really a mass conflict. really? well, i mean what show stolen good signal and so it is the 2nd biggest on me and they to it's a very well equipped then, very for swami. so adam plays the game with nato for quite a long time. he's blocking sweden's membership and they to address just pulling

nato and natal cannot afford to kick him out. they just need some, they just need stroke. is it board as rough on board as the caucasus board of the queen? so what's, what's the need to do? so spoken back as trying to avoid the problem present, it sounds like thomas is telling us that turkey has made over a barrel or i'm sorry, i couldn't hear you. it sounds like thomas's saying to us that turkey has nato essentially over a barrel. that nato is so dependent on turkey that it cannot call out of actions that clearly conflict with the alliance is principles. absolutely, and as we know, that ad one uses every christ to, to, to, to create more power for himself. but in ukraine he tried to be the mediator just to gain much more was just to gain much more power in by using the g issue. if you

try to use it as a leverage. now he's trying to use the same card between how much and between is royalties. the price would be the main data, but it, please don't forget that often. this is the 1st effects of from us, or after the 1st effects of us doing was still quite for 2 weeks. the chart to be mid day to when use that to a wasn't accepted. then you start the harsh. they could start these routes. so he always wants to gain a much more power from duck prices. now he's trying to do the same thing and they to try to block something to do much more things for him. so in fact, deluxe, he did blame a nato, a to the sweden joining nato for nearly 18 months after the most of the rest of the allies had agreed that sweden and finland absolutely should join. he now has presented the succession agreement to the turkish parliament. so he seems to have

climbed down on that one, none the less. clearly turkey is a necessary nato partner, but is it a reliable one? it certainly is not, but i think it is. and i would have maybe share what's most of the earlier that need to is the, i mean, of course, it is dependent on her to, but this kind of feeling of, or on the part of the e, u. natal and european governments that they, they, they need to turn on me and boulders are doing further. and i mean these a piece a month, there's a whole history of a piece on the policies on the part of, you know, you are open to us. but especially europe, towards our delani, the black mentioned the refugee deal earlier, there is need to question. and every time when the west shows the weakness and fear from that, just that just in boulders and even further i think that here, the balance is, i mean it's clearly the west that's more powerful than our delong. turkey is very much dependent on the west militarily, economically, financially,

etc. i think is really time for, for example, tomorrow of schultz to publicly show, you know, sort of the strength of signal to turn to add on, add to turkey. that do you know, the west will not keep tolerating this kind of unreliable behavior on the part the phone, a financial number clearly out of one prepares for his visit to germany with a vision of himself as a strong leader of a 100 year old republic. with a golden future, but in fact, at home sky rocketing inflation. a plunging currency and under orthodox economic policies are provoking doubt, especially among the young. he stumbles 6 months into president ad once the term in office. more and more people want to leave turkey, especially those that are young. i'm that you, kate said. one of them is true saying the stop an english teacher,

or do any vesta a country. a, you are valuable person in turkey, you're not a valuable person because you can be at the traitor being any time people are in just over the refreshing and add one. so for terry and system, but also over the economic crisis and the high cost of living most recently, the official inflation rate was at 61 percent fox. it is difficult to get a visa, some pay smugglers and make the way to western europe via the balcony roots. in germany, almost a 3rd of all asylum seekers now come from turkey in october alone, and that was almost $10000.00. the 2nd largest group off the syrian refugees who say, do you also wants to go to germany? is the elite losing space and how to once promise of a tucker century. and we'll come back to that question in just a moment,

but thomas, let me ask you, 1st of all about this transfer schultz is going to receive other one just by quite a bit of pushback, from a number of groups in germany who say he should not be doing so. one of the reasons is that germany and z you are looking to turkey to help stem migration into the you. on the other hand, we've just heard that turkey is actually, or everyone's policies are actually triggering migration to this country. why is chancellor schultz receiving everyone at this moment? well, i mean the, the, the, you need seem because of the rest of these emails. i'm not gonna isn't, isn't of booking. as you has expected it to work, it just doesn't go this way. and that was playing this game with it. and the 2nd thing is, um, would you refuse to receive that on the drum and what does it really mean it's, it's quite difficult to put pressure on ad on, on the palestinian issue on the,

the, the israel issue is very, very difficult. it is not so easy and i do not agree with the will that the west and that's not talking about the west because the west doesn't exist, but to put pressure on the other one. that's not that easy. there's not even the mechanism to exclude someone from they to mean what do you want to do? and he's playing the russell game. so i think he's in a very, very strong position and able to show that strong position when he comes to, to berlin, enable it to use shows that curtis demonstrations are showing that terrors can move around in germany without any police control. and that's then it will come from the homeless terrorism issue. and then d, like the last time you sat at this table, it was just a few days before the election, entire turkey, where you and the others had a sense that possibly the opposition might topple him. from power, when you now look at the outlook for your country, you see a report like that and that describing the economic misery, you know,

so well. what is your sense of where turkey is going and how the west can maintain relations with this country? to be as doubtful from here. it's just getting worse and worse. the elections were indeed attends for such things to start to change for the better. but it didn't work, i mean, just, we now have a crisis, for example, between the high courts and turkey, where a high court of appeals openly. okay, he's a criminal complaint against members of the church is constitutional court for a judgement that they've, they've deliberate, that upset are gone. so it is, he is going to consolidate his one man rule more and more, you know, his complete control of the judiciary, the judge, you know, the media economy. so the only thing is, i mean, the economy is not doing well. so that's one question. if there is a serious, a kind of a crisis that might perhaps bring his end, but later, i mean, he's just so strong. and the other is of course,

the west. i mean there are still things can, that can be done. you ex session for example. you know, i mean, there's no reason why churches still has the especial status, although of course clearly wiley school can, i can pull school criteria. i mean that's something that to do. i'm to use, you know, i mean sanctions except i think it's just things to be done on the part of the west and you and natal. um, but other, but i don't see that happening too because of this feeling that they're dependent on to receive them like fish and etc. so i'm afraid torque is going to go as attrition is going to go. i'll continue going really badly until i don't know. maybe an economy big of some of the crisis, but as long as he's alive and might be, i just do not seeing the short term how, how this is going to change your mind. if i come back to our title, uh, as you remember, it is between nato and him us what his are the ones and from everything that all of you have said. it's clear that his aim is to maintain and expand his own

power. if that is the case, should germany essentially to be receiving and supporting him at this critical moment when germany itself is striving to show solidarity with israel and fight anti semitism here at home. the same anti semitism, he is provoking with his statements. cutting stars is not resolution, of course he can't accept, he can be. and mister schultz said acceptance that i don't. and they, they do big company in contact. but the thing is, yes, in the west, let's say germany needs to take your lesson yet. so if you did this thing started add on, it's less than so for too much, especially in financially means, like if you, if you, if you're just support team, if you could just make your feel up to you just the strong guys. people think it ask for more that's ad was way as we all know. but at the same time, with sometimes not sometimes actually should always remind conduct sheet has to be

connected with a democratic cruise. i'm sure, you know, melinda, even butchering that has been bending turkey and people came up accessing on our website. we start using vpn every day and other joining this is being the arrested . i hope you'll start this to 20 bucks a couple of months ago. so things are getting boomers, you then risk when they're having contact with having some additional sidewalks. they should 3 my team and use the republic which they have a monkey. let me go quickly to thomas cutting ties. is not an answer says do then to you would agree just have it fully agree to that. what depends which ties that can sometimes needs to be cut you accession process present status for example should be lifted. circuit should be suspended from the council of europe. i think certain types needs to be broken. thank you very much to all of you for being with us. thanks to our viewers for to and again, do check out our youtube channel and let us know what you think. save soon.

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us black light against the queer community. again, it's multiculturalism right. wing munitions and radical christians are gathering in the us state all these people. and

in 15 minutes on the w, safe haven would choose lean from the coast refugee home in henry has been taking into them a task choose since full broadcasting, you know, following the terror attacks, by how most families from israel also explain to like spanish, to define safety and disturbing to focus on us in 90 minutes on dw the, the, the circle to the special hot spots in germany. dw, travel, extremely busy. sometimes

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the this is the, the we can use live from the leading israel sees it, has recovered the party of a hostage taken by how much the militants of october the statements. the body of jo device was reportedly found by troops near the chief. a hospital in concept is riley, may latrice, stays its found and tunnels. suspected of being used by how mazda at the facility, and a possible fast track to nathan membership for ukraine, the dumping you looks at a controversial. why do you think sliced by

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