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tv   Conflict Zone  Deutsche Welle  December 8, 2023 12:30am-1:01am CET

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and we've got some hot tips for your package. the romantic code is spots affinities. check on some great cultural memorials to b, w, travel the 2 months. and so the guys of war america is still insisting as well is killing too many palestinians for the administration is also on the pressure itself. this time from an unprecedented number of its own officials and members of the democratic party. a and yet this devices support for the war. aaron, david miller is a former senior official at the state department. he says the timing is good for the president. if this were playing out in october of 2024, i think it would have a, a very significant impact on what promises to be very
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close. election mellow is now is economy again, dowman for international peace with plenty of experience negotiating with israel and the palestinians. what does he think of israel tactics in battle? and what kind of country might too much from this conflict? and david miller, welcome to come pick zone again. it's a pleasure to be here. thanks for having me. israel risks strategic defeat if it goes on killing civilians at the current rate in gaza. this last week from the us defense secretary lloyd austin was this is close to a public rep for him on those washington will go or is the administration just, but you signaling for public consumption, having the ministration, frankly, the rhetoric increasing, rhetoric, impatience, frustration with the humanitarian catastrophe and gaza and the rising number ex financially announced and in this i think, reflects that the bind, the buying,
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the divide mysteries and one hand. the administration of from the get go is tethered. it's a itself is of orange, which are very ambitious eradication of a mouse is military and infrastructure above and below around freedom of officers and the killing of at least 2 of the 2 top leaders. uh yeah, history one on a day full plan. the october 7, 7 terrace surge, but do take the same time. they're under enormous pressure internally and externally, i think they have signal. do these rallies privately on this issue. nature of time, a lot. these rallies weren't much you ministration. i'm told privately. i said, do these really? you have weeks, they are not prepared yet. i think to say that publicly, no american president and i board for half a dozen ministration republicans and democrats wants to fight with it is really prime minister chalkboard. it's messy. it can be politically costly and frankly,
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based on my experience with some exceptions and there it can be counter counter productive. so based on who joe biden is, and the butchery of october 7, i think it's going to take some effort still to move him to the point where these i would term them. i don't think virtually signal is the right word. i think they're cautionary advisories. they may even be warning. what the real question is, a warning without a cost or consequence is just that. it's a warning and they keep warning, go back, they keep warning, but has it, has israel stop listening to the us? stop listening. i think it's it is my analytical view. it's certainly not pretty. and it's not comforting in terms of the exponential rise in palestinian destin shepherd. it is magical. think magical. think to believe that in area twice the size of the district of columbia with 2300000 people,
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2 thirds of home have been been displaced at least once, maybe twice with the population density of anywhere from 18221000 humans per square mile that you can achieve israel's military objectives, particularly how much is embedding in an around under, on top of civilian facilities and populations. and you can achieve those objectives without doing catastrophic car. and that is, and that is priced in now, is it best catastrophic. com as far as this route is concerned, they're gonna keep pushing back against these warnings. i think that these rallies are made of judgment. that in the wake of act, october 7 in the hostages, which is a, an issue with a dynamic that keeps on driving the anger. the
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resentment to frustration on the part of not just is government, which is the most right wing extremist in the history of the state of israel. a lot of the top part of the local a part of is really, is generally there's tremendous support for these words. october 7 was a degree of watching the israeli palestinian conflict to into fighters through 4 or 5 is really how mosque are durations? several is really lebanese wars were, palestinians were involved this, that level of violence exceeds anything that we've ever witnessed in terms of it's indiscriminate killing. it said isn't it's tally. and, and i think this is important and not fully appreciate the, i'm just reporting here. so please don't shoot me the contract between the government then, and those who govern was fundamentally rooted on october 7th.
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the contract and most is rarely make with their government is very simple. we're prepared to agree to mandatory military service. we're prepared to put our sons and daughters in harm's way with the real possibility that they can be seriously injured or killed. but an exchange you the government guarantee to be extended humanly possible. our security and our normal sheet, which it failed to do, which it has collectively failed to do. and i think that dynamic influence is, i know he's really don't like the notion of the term vengeance and a venturing. but i cannot believe if you are a member of these really intelligence establishment. i'm interviewing next week, both former head of should bed and the former head of most john, if you are a member of the intelligence community or these really military,
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this sense of guilt for what you failed to anticipate and operationally, what you failed, how you failed to respond for as many as 12 hours. once the tear search began, i can cannot help but effect influence and drive the determination of these relays . if you asked me, are they prioritizing the lives of the rooms soldiers over the lives of palestinian civilians in garza? the last, almost 2 months now, i think tomorrow is the 2nd month beginning the 2nd month of this conflict. the answer to of course, they are, like most military and i, i, i, i pressed military american military experts, folks who actually been involved. david trey is info little john mosul. nobody has come up with an answer to the problem of how you do what these really want to do
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without endangering the population. the answer is, i guess these rarely should not be doing what they're doing. then then you end up with a i don't even know how to a conundrum. i don't know how these really operate wherever stream searchable backlash and there is considerable backlash among political appointees last month, 500 political point. these are the buying an administration representing around 40 government agencies, wrote to the president to protest at his support for israel in the war. i wanted to ask you how rare it is, but so many people were moved to object on a key foreign policy issue. yes, press enter, my i will say i work to burn the state for 25 years for half a dozen in ministrations, republicans and democrats. i was not in government during vietnam, but i must say, i have never, ever seen a degree of internal turmoil. remember,
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we don't have any resignation, so we're not talking about a synonymy of protests that we do. resignations, another matter for civil servant, certainly a political appointee to consider resigning or principle that takes a lot of courage to do what i've seen there. but we are seeing it on the staff level congress, the white house department of state usa, i. d. not to mention the public pressure on their progressive democrats or bringing human mainstream democrats or bringing if this, if this were playing out. in october of 2024. i think it would have a very, a significant impact on what promises to be a very close election and it might still have that impact. i mean, we are, we are only a year away from the presidential election. right. oh, you know, i have to remind myself, sometimes in american politics that here is still an attorney,
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the any number of other issues are going to be higher on the minds of republican and democratic motors and independence like the economy, for example, well, the economy. so i'm not prepared to make it to turn to the i, i just don't think we know and that's, that's a good conclusion. i think that people follow american politics on the granular level. i do not. oh, would probably tell you was, well, we just, we just don't know, but if you freeze framed it right now, i can't imagine young american motors, air americans, michigan, critically important states dearborn, the anger, the frustration is best and it's not just directed against these revenues. i mean, it all that up in morse. morse and do involves too much darker sort of dimensions. why can't i send that to them? it's also angry at the administration. and this, this is what's moving. i think at least the public mood i'm usually operation
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of whatever the administration has or hasn't done to come concerns in its own ranks about it's as well policy there appears to be a huge gulf in the us and is really visions of the future. just a few days ago we had cobbler harris, the vice president directly addressing israel's talk of creating a security buffer zone between guys in israel. the us would not permit, she said, not permit the redrawing of the board as of gaza. is that just more tough? talk or is this now looking like an immovable red line for washington as well? you know, the administration has been clear in the numerator and for what i call the 4 or 5 know is related to post concert guys. guys will not be used as a platform to launch chair that we know force relocation of the population that we know reduction in territory. garza in the west bank constitutive storage unit. and
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i'm presumptive notion that, that a 2 state solution, which is the administration q, how this should all land um is still very current. i think there's a merging between the ministrations notion of there should be no reduction of territory. and israel's intention, we don't know, you know, not even pippi of york or delphi reading the best of coating trails. could tell you, tell me right now how this is going to. and the one thing is unmistakably clear to me. they'll be home mission accomplished. sort of speech on the part of these early defense forces and then they're leaving guys with no transitional mechanism to guarantee a mazda is resurgence pertaining resurgence. there will be as longest residual as long as they know mazda elements. i suspect they will continue to operate and pose how fundamental problem i can't say. but these riddles are not simply going to pull
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out what they're going to do is, is to create and they will try to insure the ministration that this is simply a function of a transitional issue until some sort of mechanism can be worked out and maintain whatever it is, whenever you're, you know, you're magical thinking of it does, your, is an error to turn force, hardly likely in international force is a possibility. us is that already set is that contributing some forces with brittany, france, contribute forces. so when come carmella harris says we want to see a unified west bank and gaza on the palestinian authority and palestinian voices and aspirations must be at the center of this what it's not going to happen. visit in the at least as far as israel is concerned. let's be clear. we haven't even talked about the impact of this on, on these really politics. the average length of it is really government since independence is 1.8 years this december, mr. newton. yeah,
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i was government most stream right links to premises top homophobic government in the history, the state of israel richards one year or more. i don't want like making predictions . i don't think there is a mechanism right now to remove benjamin. nothing. you know, his own party does not have a history of devouring its own and inter marvin over here and this allows mode fridge that you have the stream is ministers. see god, but frankly as a positive distraction for them to carry out their jewelry, carry out their policy to try and do an extra westbank and every, any big name, only. you cannot create a stable situation guys long. we get to the pursuit of a, a, a meaningful negotiations. and 2 state solution with this is really not a full stop. there has to be a political reckoning. there will be in $73.00 after until october 6, 7 was the greatest intelligence failure in the history of the state. there was
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a state commission of inquiry in our report was fire fire maybe 8 months after the war did not identify the my here government or my here in particular as having responsibility. but she was forced to reside under in, under a prep poll. but it, it, it undermined in greg's credulity to the breaking point to believe us that a year from now benjamin at. anyhow, we'll still be heading this particular government but there is in that critical year. this is why it's so important between now and november of 2024. this is the period where the administration needs to have a policy toward what to do in gaza and how to link it. how that tethered to the pursuit of a political rise and serious political arise based on 2 states. i know people said that 2 states solutions gone the way of the dodo. i do not believe that this crisis has demonstrated 1. 1 thing was terrified clarity to me, and that is,
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there is absolutely no way is realism, palestinians are gonna live happily ever after. in one house, either in one state solution or a by natural state. it makes no sense. they are going to have to separate through negotiations. that's the key into something that approximates to states with border security, jerusalem, refugees, end of conflict in all claims on the table negotiated seriously. i would, i would argue if us, per be a good, honest broker and effective mediator, it's not saying it's not seen as an honest broker in the public among palestinians as well. is it a meanwhile, israel continues ignoring demands from the white house. isn't the america going to start looking pretty? we come in to national stage when it comes to this real, the gap between our words in our deeds have always been more or less grand canyon.
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i mean, they haven't been time. you're familiar with 1956 as a mine eisenhower threatened sanctions is realizing that withdraw from china. they did ronald reagan delayed delivery invest exchange over israel's extension of administrative law. i'm going to go on the tools. there are tools that washington can use basis. my review isn't what they must do. you set a frame, a public referential frame that puts the united states clearly unequivocally and publicly on the record, as saying exactly what it believes needs to evolve. i don't think this is going to be a, an issue for a 1st turn by the administration. we're going to be running out of time. but if the president is re elected, you could see a serious effort. in the 2nd term you're going to need leadership is real is not
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capable right now of entering into any serious negotiation with discovery and the palestinian boss now in the 19th year before year term with no credibility to cancel elections in 2021 also is not capable to making those decisions so that that's the problem in your view, to what extent does washington have to distance itself from the more controversial methods that as well as employing on the bathroom feel? i mean, versus where are you on the accusations that israel has imposed collective punishments on the people of gaza? well, i think the blockade, which was the 1st at the easier least talk in the wake of the terror serge on october 7, could easily be interpreted as their new shoes of distinction, proportionality, which is the 2 key legal concepts of international humanitarian law. i think there
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is no doubt you have to be detached from reality draining or conclusion that these is really rules of engagement have expanded. how could, how could they not, even if you don't fully masses of power stain, ministry of health stat. and by the way, i learned for the 1st time today that those, those figures include not just civilians, but come back. you're no distinction between the 2. but even if you believe those are inflated significantly, that's that 15000 including 5000 almost fighters. it does really claim they've killed. you're talking about an export that an exponential rise in bellas, jeanine, dest, which is extraordinary. you think the bite and the ministration is afraid of criticizing israel. remember what happened to jimmy carter? he was pilloried. most of those to be when he talked about the criticism of the
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condition and they occupied territories was never jimmy carter was the n a number spec for carter in terms it would have been no egyptian drawing peach tree without jimmy carter. but joe biden is not jimmy car. joe, mine is alone among american presence. a guy who is preacher naturally has been throughout most of his career halls, career choices original. he considers himself literally part and parcel of these released their story and he's dealt with every label. every is what is really lead to for decades. no, nobody has 2nd and not in terms of his support for his question is can that support be used to have not just to have the uncomfortable conversations, but at some point to basically say benjamin isn't yeah. what else? because it's harming america's reputation as well. by standing close to an ally that is doing the things that nothing yahoo is doing. i think that certainly the,
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the key consideration on the part of part of these really is whether or not is this administration has reached a conclusion that my proposition, that it's magical thinking to believe that israel kind of jewish subjected to without a reeking tremendous harm under college senior population, whether that be that's no big deal. i don't know. i do. i do think this, however, it would be no hostage releases without drove by. it would be no humanitarian a into god without job i. there's no question about that. and there isn't that much any way, is there? well, we need more. and over the last 48 hours, again, my understanding administration under enormous pressure from the administration has agreed even as their operational tempo picks up in the south to increase in the amount of humanitarian assistance, but no amount of a man at tearing assistance that is being allowed and could even begin to deal with
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the humanitarian catastrophe that's occurring in winter's coming. and i just, i mean i, i don't know how to reconcile these 2 things to you. i mean, i, i really don't, i don't know if i mean, if i were part of this administration, i'm not sure what i would advise and whether or not that advice would be taken seriously because i do not do not see. and i think this is part of the problem why the ministration lacks leverage. it cannot offer to be as reynold's a compelling all turn it in to how to accomplish it on your end to which and, and drop by the doors. those words that october 10th speech, which set the stage swift, comprehensive, and decisive, think those were the 3 words at the present use. to say, that's how america would approach this problem. if what happened to israel october
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7 had happened to the united states swift, comprehensive, and decisive? i don't, i don't have an answer for which i readily admitted. maybe i'm not smart enough. i just don't see how you do this. that means that at some point, the administration may say no, i don't know how long it was, you would take these rarely to accomplish their objectives or if in fact they can accomplish them at all. what kind of israel do you think is gonna emerge from this war? we're seeing continued violent spite settlers against palestinians in the west bank . no move to whole that despite biden's warning that it must stop, there are also reports of arrests, job losses and interrogations. for those who dissent from the war, what kind of country very briefly do you think as well as becoming you know, well, becoming a digital overall. the only good news about this free of horrors is the fact that
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you use it for overall is debt. that benjamin the now and is extreme, is ministers efforts to rearrange the political furniture and israel. and to basically make majority rule with no projection of minorities. the, the order of the day is paid, and those $41.00 weeks have convinced me. i do not know another country. certainly would not happen here. spite our democratic system for 40 plus weeks, hundreds of thousands of years, railways are in the streets pushing for the kind of israel that they want. a human is liberal democratic israel. admittedly, the occupation figures prominently and presents all kinds of contradiction to that image. but i think the majority of people in that, in that small country with 10, almost $10000000.00 people to $1000000.00 to any institutions of israel,
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what that kind division for their country. and i am persuaded that these crisis, even though many military crises have led to a, even a further right wing drift. i think you're going to get out of this eventually and it's not going to be a less lift the federal government. and it will be a right a right is government. will it be center, right? will it be responsible? will it be willing to face the reality that it could be no real security without a diplomatic political solution to these really palestinian concepts and, and do these really occupation? i would like to think that as the case of david miller, we could go on for much longer, but we've run out of time. thank you so much for being on the program. good to see you, tim. you too. take care. thank you. by the
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