happened as a 10000 years ago. scientists shining lights on the enigma left by our and the secrets of the stone age. december 22nd, on the w, the from europe and the us to argentina. many voters are turning to politicians who promise a radical break with mainstream politics populous and nationalists curry favor with simplistic solutions for complex problems. ranging from inflation and inequality to migration and climate change. bashing is long propelled dutch firebrand gas moved us to victory, argent, seniors, ivy. i'm the lead. we'll do the chainsaw to demonstrate his intentions. while donald trump promises to spend his 1st day in office as a dictator, is outraged the new recipe for success ever leads failed or quit. they enjoy and

come back like colon centrist were asking, change politics, cutting down the democratic establishments the hello and welcome to, to the point. it is a great pleasure to greet our guests, beginning with math to kinetic. he is politic codes chased europe correspondent based here in berlin. and it's also a pleasure to welcome rob solve a back seat is corresponded for germany in central europe at deduction. this paper, the telegraph, and also great to have currently in a record on the program. she's a member of the board at the cook tour to the foundation, which publishes one is pull that is like leading weeklies. and she's also associate professor in sociology, university of warsaw. next year,

more than half of the world's population for 1000000000 people will have the opportunity to vote in places from the u and the us to russia, india, and mexico math to what's your outlook when you hear that number it, are you concerned that the sum total of those elections could in fact pose a risk to democracy. uh, no, i think it's a good thing and i'm generally an optimist. and i think it's, it's wonderful that so many people will be able to cast their votes in their, in their various countries. i obviously think that the election in the united states is the most important of, of those elections. but i think it's a strong symbol of the important in during importance of democracy in our world that 4000000000 people will be able to go to the ballot box. many of the populace nationalists, who, in fact are on the rise elsewhere have taken

a leaf from donald trump's book. donald trump is now running again for office. what's the secret to his ongoing appeal? well, i would argue that donald trump took a lead from some of the other populace around the world, the it and during his rise to power. but i think that, you know, there is this intangible aspect to his appeal. that is, is very difficult for others to, to replicate, which is why so many have tried and failed. you have similar figures to him around the world. obviously, some of whom have come and gone. if you look at the silvio berlusconi, for example, in italy, he comes to minor victor, or bon and hungry is, is another one. but the thing that these figures have in common is that no matter what they do, their voters forgive them no matter how many mistakes they make or how many times you can prove that they've lied or misled the public. they have this in, during appeal. there is something sort of magical about that. unfortunately,

that is very difficult to combat. we all remember donald trump statement that he could shoot someone in the middle of 5th avenue in new york and walk away from it as no one would care. that's absolutely right. right. in your own country's recent election a far right candidate, one, the largest share of the boat. what would you say prepared, goat propelled get builders to success? what is the central appeal that he holds for so many voters? i think he listens very carefully to the, to the needs of the people. the migration is a big topic and then evelyn's, i come from from this country. and we've seen in the last decades, lots of people came to the netherlands. but let's say only of this year, 20000 people came with asylum and he thinks asylum was one of the biggest problems, uh and uh, in the netherlands. so $20000.00 people is not that much, but we have

a lot of on our migration, for example, people that come from other countries in the world to do the work a from eastern europe, for example, from poland from romania. and they do the work. and in the factories in the supermarkets of a lot of basic uh, drops are, are done. um by them for example the, the big um, uh, airport. ship all of them. so them couldnt function because the were not enough for workers. and besides that, and the big cities in the netherlands, uh, we have a lot of migration from, let's say, uh, from expatriates, when people in good jobs earning a lot of money. and we've seen the prices for housing going up very, very much prices for housing everywhere in europe and the big capital. and the big cities have gone up the prices for rent. and i think he addressed those things. the,

the, the, the basic cost of living, the social security and the migration. these are the big topics. why, why you want, and he was, it was a, could better explain this. then let's say a conservatives liberals or social democrats and another on the question is, will it be better able to solve it now, he will not do it alone. he needs a coalition. he wants to to do it together with the deliveries. and they said, yeah we, we, we think about that with another party that used to be conservative and now uh, uh, is in favor of the basic law and from a farmer, a smaller farmer party. but um that is, the next step will be they will talk about 6 or 8 weeks about the basic drawer. so how, how they do with uh, sending the basic law. and this is very strange to me because the law is the law. the basic law guarantees our freedom, but he defense the right to offense to the discriminates, to,

to say whatever he wants about the parliament about the judges. and so it will be very interesting. it's simply a risk that we can see the well of law undermined cowardly to the rule of law was challenged by the previous polish government. it in fact lost the recent election to a centrist. so poland appears to be one country. that's a fucking a trend toward populism and nationalism. what accounts for the fact, the polish voters through the peace party, out of office, and turned toward centrist many elements and to for those elements pulled on to the right. now seen as a video poll prize, the political magazine has just called mr to see the most powerful position in europe today. but it's interesting because actually she's his child and she has no then the thrive he has, if he has just started. and this is a, i think that the,

the biggest, the biggest challenge here does he actually didn't accomplish on the goals so far he will attempt to accomplish. but as for the, a, the winning and the india election as well. let's remember that there were many losers. and monday, when there's in those elections because our ols are also only losers on or on the witness, because of the law, injustice party has one. the election of this, it was 36 percent of the are unable to form the government. they were unable over the it has been over, they decided so they were also a loser. and the coalition that was billed by the full scope this. they didn't win the elections because they didn't have any 1st place. but they were able to form the government, which has been just just installed this week. so what's basically caused the many, many elements, the pretty fleet? um, well 1st the full at the turn out. it was

a record in poland after 1989. let's just recall that in 1989, only, only 63 percent of people went to the bottom of the boxes. so people were very much mobilized on the sides of the opposition. this is point number one, point number 2, international cooperation, especially with the european union on the role of lead, no issues. the fact that the full and was published by it's, it's politics towards the level. it was very important for how the people have defined what they would really like, pulled them to be last, but not least, of course, is the leadership is the leadership itself. so potent simply had a very, very experienced and good politician who has created this wide question. and thus it was possible to win with the national populist. let's now take a closer look at one of the central forces that is driving the rise of the right.

namely the politics of anger from argentina's, new president to the united states, former one stoking resentment against mainstream. political leads is a tactic of choice, newly elected argentine in president javier malay describes himself as an a narco capitalist. he has promised a political and economic earthquake works at the date of today marks the end of argentine as decline in the end of a state model that benefits only a few weeks while the rest of the country suffers the right wing populace plans on using the chain saw method to enact change while a wants to radically slash states power. abolish the central bank and introduce the us dollar of national currency. he is skeptical of climate change. his opponents call him l. loco. meaning the crazy one malays, buddy, former us president donald trump is also buying for return to power if we elected, he says he intends to rule as a dictator for one day on his 1st day in office. i was the border and i went to

jail better as 5 times to close the mexican border and authorized oil, the link in nature reserves. yes, donald trump has a real chance of winning the us election next year. right wing radicals and populist. what is behind the global success of so many dangerous politicians? and let me pass that question right onto maps you coupled with the question, is popular success about what they are doing, right? or about what the main street is doing wrong as well. i think you could look at it that way that it's about what the mainstream is doing wrong. i think it's really more related to the huge challenges that politicians, democratic politicians all over the world are facing. whether it is about the environment, whether is about dealing with migration, whether it's dealing with poverty, these are,

these are huge challenges for which there aren't any easy answers. and then you have somebody like trump coming in saying, well, i'm going to close the border. well, good luck closing the border between the united states and mexico because we have a free trade area with mexico. also, there are many businesses and farms in the united states that rely on migrant workers to come over and work for them. so, you know, it's just not as simple as people like trump or returning it, which is why he wasn't able to resolve these problems. the last time he was president from 2016 until 2020. and yet there's still a lot of people who are frustrated with this situation and they like is sort of strong man approach to things. and it's a similar situation in, in argentina, and we'll see, we'll see how that plays out. migration. you mentioned that rob is actually provoking very sharp dissatisfaction in many countries, not only than other ones or the u. s. do you think the democratic institutions and

processes are at an inherent disadvantage in dealing with problems as complex as migration? is that one of the reasons that mainstream politicians so often seem to fail? yeah, i think it's a, it's not an easy uh, topic migration is something you'll see in world history. the people move one place to another place. we have climate change and that's you mentioned it poverty. of course. those are reasons to go from one country to another country and in europe for example, we've seen a bigger amount of migration in the last years um uh it was in germany that mrs. merc all the chancellor of the germany, as you said, we're gonna, we're gonna make that, we're gonna solve this. it's possible. but right now you see i'm imposing, there was an, an on our government, the right wing government. they, they close the board or their, uh, the east side border migrants were used as a weapon by governments. by, for example, uh russia and, uh,

the bill goes to mr. lucas lucas, franco. um they use migrants to, to bring uh, countries in, in for example, germany, other places in, in, in, in danger. and so right now, what you see is the politicians, they have to show an answer and they have to, to the people, the population that they understand why the politicians decides the way they decide . and i think it's, it's a way you need to come in and communicate a little bit better and a little bit more so that the people understand and the populace they have the better recipe may be now and i'm communicating uh for in the moment, calling the many a populous propagate nationalism as an answer, whether it's your own part of your own polish. far right. or of course, donald trump, a get filters. but the fact is, these very complex problems like migration, like climate,

require international solutions. what accounts for that paradox? it's interesting, that's the word, sovereignty has become such an important one. it has difficult real reason, so to believe in my part of the world. so is central europe. it disconnected mostly with our feet of losing, of our own stage would because it has happened repeatedly in the past. so we sold to say has this, this fear, it is somehow integrated into our political culture. it has been strengthened by the war uh which which, which but by putting for a new crane this is, this is so good. but at the same time, the southern to it has become also such an important subject also in the us and u. k. and, and drugs, and i do believe that it's somehow connected with the fact that people are observing a very complicated world with a lot of threats coming globally from, from the end of the borders. and they have the, they are looking for

a simple answer and the simple answer is being offered by the populace. namely, if globalization is scaring you and let's, let's say, honestly, there is a lot of things that there's scary and globalization apart from those who are, who are wonderful. so if you are scared with the globalization, we will give you a simple answer. we will defend the national sovereignty, will close the border. the problem is that they do not deliver. they only say that like their own, they do not deliver to the problems. let me ask all of you to say a word about economics in all of this argentina's new president millay, as we saw in the report road, a wave of vote or anger about soaring inflation and widespread poverty. matthew, would you say that bill clinton's explanation for voter behavior? it's the economy stupid still holds true. no, i would say it doesn't. and i think this is part of the confusing um you know, a confusing element of all of this. because if you look at argentina, they have

a 140 percent inflation, 40 percent of the population is living in poverty. so it's easier, i think, to understand why they would want to try something radically new with, with president me lie. whereas in the united states, the economy is doing quite well. inflation is come down to 3 percent. you basically have full employment. the economy is, you know, maybe not booming, but it is, it is really strong. the largest companies in the world are still in the united states. it's the most innovative country in the world by any measure. and yet you still have these, these issues. so why are people so disgruntled? well, i think a lot of it has to do with identity issues. there's, there's a culture war going on in the united states and has been, and i think that that is something that donald trump and the other populace and united states have successfully seized onto and convinced many people that the main stream identified by people as, as people belonging particularly to the democratic party are against real americans

and, and this movement is sort of taken on a life of their own, but i think it's own. and i think that's the interesting aspect of the united states that is sort of been de, coupled with the issue of the economy. and you're seeing that in parts of europe as well, where there are, you know, a lot of prospers areas. we're populous, they're doing quite well. quick paradox again, uh, in relation to poland and a new german study of 51 countries that are governed by populace found that they tend to do worse rather than better economically under populist rule. poland, however, flourished economically during the time that the piece was empowered, the right wing populous party. and during the election campaign, the party showered polish families with cash handouts. yes, voters turned it out of office. so what's the role if he cannot mix in poland? so i would quote someone else notes to say that economy is stupid, but i would quote the quote alex, is that the grill and i would say that the economy mentors

a book in context. so in poland, obviously this has been a throughly success story. and it has been really know the, the last 8 years actually the, the past almost 35 years of polo polish was 3. so after 1989 has been a success story and i would risk it to say that the economy is, is far less important when it comes to the political changes in poland is on and then culture and, and social issues. and having said that, one must have made the economy in poland of to 1999 has been very well reformed. this reforms that are forms of law should bucks at all, which had also tremendous costs. the costs were not sufficiently discussed during the 1st part, the 2025 years uh, the 1st 25 years of the transformation. and this is perhaps why piece one in the

1st place. because some issues with it. it's simply not addressed because address all those issues, the feeling of loss, the, the deep change, the poland as it simply underwent. but it's now after those 8 years, i do believe that, um, it was like a kind of therapy you kind of and you might also see it from the point of view. and we are somehow ready over the to, to integrate the story of the transformation into the folder success story. so let's take a quick or a closer look. now at the example of poland and the pushback that we saw there against the forces of populism and nationalism, the victory of donald tusk. center civic platform party in poland. parliamentary election. this fall is being viewed by some as a side of hope for democracy. democratic european and now

serving a prime minister, donald task takes power once again after 8 years of right wing populist rule. scott, hold on just one. democracy is one. we have remove them from power, you are go, nobody would have believed it. the peace government tried everything to maintain its grip on power. state television attacked testing daily, depicting him as a traitor to the country, while claiming that he represented the interest of brussels of berlin and moscow, as opposed to poland. by contrast, test campaign tirelessly for europe, the animal of law promising to re unite the poles. but during his last term of office 9 years ago, tusk also advocated for a radical liberalization policy that costs many people their jobs and drove them into the arms of the piece. this is one reason why the country remains divided. another is that many possessions in the judiciary, media,

and financial authorities will remain occupied by loyal peace, supporters for years to come. now donald tests mission is to restore the rule of law. is pulling change a beacon of hope for other countries. what would you say to that car lean or do you think that poland says that that the center of success in poland will encourage moderates elsewhere? just a very good question. i would love. i would like to stress that the success of the civic coalition and to the brother, clinician folding should not affect our sobriety as so we should really with some barely look at the, the, the other countries and 3 yellows. but not in every case. the of the, of the future res, so, so up, domestics, opponent is a ray of hope. that's it, but it doesn't have to be repeated since the other countries. if i come back to our title, chainsaw politics, that of course, referencing the argentine in uh,

victory by the chain. so wielding mr. mulay is democracy at risk. rob, if you look toward european elections coming up in 2024. if you look at the elections in 3 east german regions in 2024, what would you say? all of us need to do to ensure that democracy doesn't see a setback? i think the important thing is to work to get are to find solutions for the problems that people population have important. there is a correlation of many parties working together because the problems we have climate gratian installation, these are serious, published in germany. for example. there's a possibility that the right wing a party off the, the day for a, for example, the day when the elections next year in the middle of germany and which is in the hearts of, of, of, of europe. for example. ringback you can only prevent them coming into power if you

work to get our, with a lot of our parties to bring solutions, really, very concrete solutions, migration, work, poverty, all these things and to communicate that because people are need for good information to be well informed to make the right decisions. math here we used to be said that the shortest way to discredit a populist or a nationalist a was let him take power and reveal his weaknesses. donald trump govern for 4 years, and that doesn't seem to have dissuaded many people from supporting him. we haven't booted him back into power yet, so we'll see. we'll see about that. i'm a little bit more optimistic on that front, but these figures do have strong staying power. we've seen that over the years in both united states and in, in, in, in europe. but i think that the main issue now from a european perspective that these politicians have to get ahold of is, is migration. because if you look at where these parties are particularly strong,

it's in countries such as the netherlands, also germany now where the a f d, the far right party is at over 20 percent in 2nd place in australia where the far right party is leading the poles by 10 percentage points, the same issue is dominating the political debate, which is migration because many citizens have the impression that their leaders do not have control of, of what's happening. and i think that's really the key. can i ask you quickly, what a renew trump presidency? would mean for europe and whether europe is prepared to deal with that. i don't think europe is prepared. i don't think that they really can prepare for something like that. so the issue is not so much about trans policies, is the choice between for americans, between democracy and authoritarianism. and if you have enough storage area in united states for europe, which relies on the united states for its security and also economically, it would most likely be a disaster. there will be a lot to talk about next year. thank you very much to all of you for being with us

today. thanks to our viewers for tuning in. check out our youtube channel and let us know what you think. goodbye the

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