and works in the cause of stress. he has been documenting life there since the outbreak of the war. the humanitarian situation is catastrophic. the war and its consequences. now on youtube or the for nato. a worst case scenario would be a russian attack on one of its members states, and now it is rehearsing for exactly that possibility. it's running, it's the biggest military trail since the cold war to practice its response. the exercise is called steadfast defender and it see some 90000 troops from 32 countries taking part with fighter jets tanks and warships. that's all shortly before the 2nd day nursery of russia's full scale invasion of ukraine. since then, cube has fought to expel its invaders with help from western weapons, but will to support continue. today on to the points we're looking at,

put is imperial ambitions and asking is the west and leaving ukraine out to drive the hello and welcome to to the point. i'm clear, richardson in berlin and there's plenty to impact today. and i'm so pleased to welcome our fantastic panel to do just that. we have a mark was kind of a senior fellow at the german institute for international and security affairs. nature senior fellow at the german council on foreign relations. and for the few, anita, we have dw scenario and brussels correspondent, terry shops joining us today from finland. so in a, almost at 2 years of war, we seem ukraine repelling a russian invasion. and i want to just take a look 1st at where things stand today. terry,

from what you're hearing in the halls of nato. how serious is the situation in ukraine as well? we have known for a long time clear that it is critical and you know, you constantly hear that you cream is running out of ammunition. now they're even concerned that they're running out of soldiers because president zelinski has, has been unwilling to make the most dramatic call ups of his citizens. and now it's looking like he might have to do that. so when you hear the stories of ukraine fatigue throughout the west, throughout nieto allies, particularly in the united states right now, you wonder, just how much more dangerous can't get for ukraine? how much longer can they hold on when they're not getting the supplies they need? and when countries which have them are, did the ring about whether they can afford this, that's a really big concern. meanwhile, the front line allies of nato, the baltic states and poland realize every day that if you cream doesn't, when they believe putting is coming for them. next, so this isn't just

a critical issue inside you create. it's also a critical issue inside european countries and markets. this has really turned into a war of attrition. hasn't had you're seeing not much ground one on either side, but both incurring really bloody losses. do you think that this kind of war is to rushes advantage? i totally agree. we have seen this situation for a couple of months now in military times. no major move and i think, you know, we see fighting or every day every, the people, every day people are dying. i. but if you ask for the big picture, i think there's the large movements on the ground. and in particular, we know as well. we don't see any political initiatives and you put it there, you know, the legal case that's going on. however, i think that is moving to another rina's in europe as meant by terry before in the united states as well. i think we're going to talk about this in a couple of minutes. so it's not some of the about the, to focus on russia and to crane on the,

on the front of the farm. the more the put the good read us and listen capitals. and we certainly will be talking all about that in just a moment, but 1st we want to come to you for your opening thoughts and what is your view on this war of attrition? do you think of putting this sitting here? rubbing his hands with glee while he waits for western support to fade for ukraine as well. he has been very self confident in the recent public statements also, and it looks like and there is something still called elections, presidential elections and frustrating march. i think he is pushing his generals for us, some kind of a symbol that can make 30. it may be after you've called being overtaken, although there is 12 months left. and the russians are russian armed forces. now do have initiative. so the, i think pushing the recreating defenses, but we will be remains to be seen not to how much munitions rush or we'll have, but in few months how much of the russian army is there. they will need to do new

mobilization, which is very tricky in a big country because it's still putting doesn't want to admit that the countries for the in war, although the defense industry is running fast. he wants to gun us as a, as a west. i think he comes on luck over as a loop is to step up over the defense industries, including in this country. and then he's waiting for your selections. and what i hear from many people are looking at this rational experts. he's not really uh for peace negotiations before the end of the year. and if there's only technically to squeeze out to ukraine, the big goal for most go is still not to take 3031 kilometers squared over to here and there. but this triangle, ukraine is this would instinct to so many moving parts here and as we've heard, and munition is a huge issue for ukraine. it has been ripping through artillery shells and ukrainian commanders say they are not being replaced as fast as they need. every saw it is precious ukrainian folders only have 2000 bullets to fire at the moment.

russia on the other hand as at least 5 times that much the appeals and cheese are becoming increasingly urgent. molded levine overall, and i am grateful to all friends of ukraine world wide or even understand the battle the more than not simply waste. i think you should put it and that we cannot wait to see the lives beat to all those. we're trying to expedite the necessary decisions these people 3, they are needed right now, but 8 is slowing down. despite political resistance, the us granted another $250000000.00 in military age shortly before the new year. but it remains unclear whether further supplies or funds will follow. and the you just also fall in considerably short of its commitments. often only verbal promises are made enough to think according to french president emmanuel, i'm a con,

a russian victory would mean the end of european security. that is why we will continue to help them ukrainians. the reality is different. in march 2023, the promised ukraine that it would supply $1000000.00 artillery shells within a year. so far, only 300000 have been delivered. russia, on the other hand, has expanded its arsenal of weapons withheld from the dawn in north korea. in addition, the russian arms industry has massively ramped up its production, which is increasingly performing ukraine, militarily. can ukraine counts on more help from the west? so me one, let's pick it up or right there. if you were speaking to ukraine's leadership and advising them, what would you tell them can they expect or western supports? i think the, the understand that they will be more support in financial support in particular, coming from europe rather than the us germany and german chancellor. interestingly,

stepping in to lead on this, um, he's talking a lot about the next week. you're up in coast with special causal for agreeing office funds or facility for ukraine to the tune of 50000000000 euros for 4 years. hundreds of weeks or months through booking. it, but you see the offshore is actually making sure that there is an agreement on this so we can, can rely on it the question about policies like we will explain this better why this is important, but i think it will be bigger challenge to keep public support behind such moves as, as we go and get into your yeah, marcus, you want to pick that up. why our are the terraces so important for ukraine and just more generally, how much are we seeing? a lack of ammunition in ukraine affect their ability on the battlefield right now. give me 2 to 3 points. the 1st one i think, we see that the european arms industry is suffering from 2013 years of no

product or less for the concerns of, of as been quite difficult in the last couple of months to speed up reduction in your pain and your intake res, i'm factories and we're seeing that we've seen the commitment of the european union to the mid 1000000 and sales to ukraine of things and find them at the end of the will be 300000 as far as i don't remember. so this is too little, i think we're good to see more $150.00, but if you're looking at $2526.00 the it might be too late and event of the and if it is intimate though for the root of the result, and assuming the answer i think there's the bigger problem because at the end of the in so many way of can call this we're living in times of type. and then the time they've changed to be gray going into the informations or the event. and then we go into this flight and particularly looking for ways to go with the glasses,

the lots to putting too much price of the time ago of the population. yeah, really still unclear whether this turning point will really happen in german history of terry. i want to come to you because we did hear, and nato chief insulting the warning that the war ukraine has turned into a bottle of ammunition. and the alliance has a great, a one, a point, 1000000000 euro contract for hundreds of thousands of 155 millimeter artillery rounds. can you tell us a little bit about that and how much of it we can expect to go to ukraine? yes sir, i would like to actually unpack a lot of this discussion on ammunition because i've been tracking the entire process actually going to an ammunition factory in norway and watching these $155.00 millimeters shells be forged in fire because i wanted to understand just what is holding up your supply of ammunition to ukraine, and there are a lot of places where the process gets drags down. the 1st one being that,

as was mentioned, europe's weapons, manufacturing capabilities were scaled way back before they ever thought that there would be a war coming close with russia. and so it wasn't possible and it isn't possible, even in the best of circumstances, just by 150 millimeters, shells, off the shelf. they are all custom made specific to countries. and so they, most, the european allies, nato allies have set what they could from their stockpiles. and is $1100000000.00 deal that you just mentioned. this joint procurement that was announced this week that is only going to be for shelves that are delivered in 2 years, 2 to $2.00 and a half years. it will take to supply that order. and i have to say that this is made by allies who have not that have not said at this point, that they will send them to ukraine and who even knows with this issue situation will be in 2 years time. but it takes so long to make the shells, and as you mentioned, they didn't scale up fast enough to fulfill this promise to have

a 1000000 sent by the end of march. so you creating remains very much out in the cold, in terms of getting the shells. and we don't even know how much more might be spared from european stockpiles. it's a big problem for ukraine, but it also has a problem that comes back to europe and allies when their own comfort levels of their stock piles are, are below where they would like them to be. but in fact, we did not see orders go in fast enough to the weapons manufacturers, despite government saying they wanted to scale it up quickly for you created for themselves. okay, so these are not being produced fast enough. it's not even a clear whether they will go to ukraine and yet mark us, uh, the ukranian side of least publicly seems to still be remaining very optimistic about this. is this just for show to avoid a self fulfilling prophecy. i should give the impression that that without western support, a weakening western support, that it's really going to be hung out to dry. here. my question will be, what is the alternative for the ukraine and government does to smile and to pretend

to be happy based on the alternative. i think the quite a well, i think that the one saying the majority of what the government spends a lot less than governments still make the same claim as in february 2022 ukraine man or louis ross. i mean, or when. but if you raise a question, what does it mean in financial terms in military times? i think the peut and the accountants that was going through all the dock and i'm not confident that this will change in the policy of a few weeks. and you mentioned the taurus issue, again in berlin, the hold it was done and part of the things, i mean is it industry and some things company, if a particular avoiding them present tools and provide long term mississauga to grain and now they're going to the u k, and that you gave me provides them to ukraine. this is an strategic form

policy. and this is a pity. yeah. so talk a little bit about germany's role here, but me want, i want to come to you when you're looking at arms deliveries from europe for ukraine. i mean, who do you point a finger at here? who is to blame and who is really hitting the brakes on sending additional ammunition and supplies to ukraine? well, you have um, you have a public this course which is changing because it's no longer pregnant. so hungry saying he would know that. are there any weapons? it's oh, so now i'm just doing my own country. slovakia pizza who came famously was selected with the saying no, no, no. single blackmore, why the in effect is government is still living is just not from the arguments from the army. we're obviously they're empty up to the previous government, even everything they could, but their contracts not private. the contracts running. there is also

a lot of flows go through $32.00 of slovakia from germany and others and the prime minister fee to us. and the chancellor yesterday talking with all of shoulds about new corporation contracts between the 2 arm and industry. so you have a public, this course, you have a, you have also society in my own country. part of it is really tired from this war in neighboring country and would like to see some signs that the politicians are trying to encourage some kind of a ceasefire. so i think the prime minister fits on is a way of that. he's looking at pools, he needs to say one thing, but then in fact, quietly, he's doing something else. if you look at the eastern plank of nato, you have really different approaches even to the restaurant that's down the road to 3 years. not every sort of politically lead in countries there. uh, thing that they are, they can beat that and bite us, you know, everybody's pulled under developed countries. the so some of these countries

including i with good bulgaria into this kemp, i think, okay, maybe we can, we can, we can send it out. and i sure would love to have them directly to us because we are always finding that as fascinating, isn't it? i mean, looking at the case of football can rubber feet. so because you've got a neighboring country, i'm making a big claims about wanting it to stop arms deliveries to ukraine. but then as you say, he seems to have changed his tone recently. can you explain for us a little bit more what is going on there? and, and why you see these differences between different eastern countries regarding their attitude toward rush and the word ukraine. you have different history. you have a different of the societies. so yes, if 60 percent of society, my own country wants something different course on government then. then these new leaders providing while, i mean what's interesting is he met the kindly, by minister to me, how the new hold on before coming to berlin. they agreed 3 infrastructure project. things like a railway connection from key of to across you to the airport. so that people from

gift can use the airport to fly out. they will meet every 2 months with their ministers to really sort of put this robust corp. it's such a big contrast with big throw, bunch hungry yet the public line overall the speed. so he's basically no more, no more web on support change. of course, it's not really a change of course, but it's very different political communication about it looks like a quick look also at western support here. um, because looking for the us, i mean there's even potentially more bad news for ukraine here. terry. um, you know, the elephants in the room the possible and, and not unlikely election of donald trump as the next president of the united states. and he has both said that he could head into the war and ukraine in a day if he comes to power. is this just a typical trump bravado or, or is there something concrete to his plan? what could you create, expect, or claire?

i'm going to be honest, i don't spend a lot of time looking at donald trump's suppose a piece plans for you crazy when i'm so busy looking at, you know, ammunition deliveries to the soldiers who are fighting on the ground. forgive me for that, but i will point out the president. so lensky said, hey, donald trump, you've got a plan, a real plan, come on over and show it to us. so i think president zelinski a, you know, is, is masterful of his communications as well. and sort of took the lead on that, but i will point out that i wouldn't say any nato ally has confidence in a trump plan and, and really wouldn't like to, to think that there's, uh, you know, a possibility that this is going to be something they're asked to sign onto, i'm standing in the city where i also covered the trunk, putting summit in 2018. and that is something no one would like to see a repeat of the relationship between trump improvement is something that worries nato allies, european union partners every single day. and you said, you know, is the elephant in the room. but i can't tell you how many conversations i have already had about people's worries that,

that donald trump could be coming back as president of the united states. and what that will mean for nato and it's unity. terry, thank you so much for that. um, you know, as we've heard and need a really wants to, to her russia from pursuing any of its other imperial visions. and that is one of the reasons that we've been seeing the biggest nato exercise in decades. i'd like to take a closer look at steadfast defender. it's the largest military drill since the end of the cold war. 90000 soldiers from 31 nations will undergo 4 months of emergency training to prepare for the scenario of a russian attack on the needle ally. this seems more probable now than it has been in the last 30 years. russia's invasion of ukraine has presented nato with new challenges, militarily, politically, and ideologically support for your credit is still trying to support your credit is investments, the owner security. and therefore allies have provided unprecedented support in all

way around people. production the needle wants to strengthen its air defense by placing an order worth billions allied nations plan to purchase up to 1000 patriot missiles. nato is upgrading with more soldiers, weapons in new members, including finland and soon sweden is the alliance prepared for an emergency. so as nato prepared for a worst case scenario, marcus, i wanna 1st look at how likely this is that we would see a russian attack on a needle member state, and then we can turn to nato's preparedness in such an event. what do you think? how realistic is it that russia would try to attack a member of nato? i think nobody knows what's inviting me to put things mine, so i wouldn't dare to speculate about it. but i think for the next couple of years, we had quite save the military capabilities. all right, so i have been severely diminished in ukraine and we see some determinations and to

replace them in personal terms, but also in midair capabilities. and, but i think ready, mean putting knows the difference between keys and tell him estonia is involved in a door to pick one example, and i think he has to realize then for that, for the serious repercussions for, for him. i mean, i'm sorry to jump in, i don't know. i'm serious with him. you want agrees with ok. go ahead. i think we slipped through before the war started when we slipped through the fact that this is different. the actual different put in if you remember his conditions before the war started. well, he wanted you want to throw all back nato to 1990. i paid the so trigger public. poland hungry not hosting. so caused me to time for center. this is crazy because it means that we kind of exclude that when you crane war ends, he will poke to the business. and the weakest point that i think the weakest points about the countries. in fact, i talked to people from the new government anymore. so last week is there

a day or so, and that is that in 2 to 3 years, if the warrants next year, 2 to 3 years later, we kind of exclude it. they will be small incidence into both to countries where the rush i will try to see and learn, you know, how they told you, they react, maybe to head bumping. i think there's a difference in another dimension. we sometimes overlook, which is a confrontation which is not mended. henry, the holy bit hold pain of this information, the sidebar espionage, and the stablish a we see more involved this and this, this is quite an important part of the minutes of the western russian to conflict. and the, if you would ask me, i would bed more on these, the immunization operators off or off on at the premier, for undefended for us. and going to the bone blitz waiting across the board that expect a full blown military confrontation of the to come, i suppose we will have to wait and see, no one will know for sure until then of

a terry. let's look then at, you know, if this were to happen, how prepared nato would be. and do you think that focusing on white, or nato preparedness, looking at the possible attack of one of its members state, is actually detracting and taking away from its efforts to support ukraine. so well, let me just pick up on that, comments about the presumption that russia will poke at the finish russian border because that's one of the things i'm here reporting on. and that is very much what they think was happening with the russia, you know, facilitating migrants coming to the border and pushing them over. they think russia wanted to see how resilient feeling could be right now and see if there was any, you know, sort of changing the armor of this new nato ally of the european union. and they have not found that to be effective, so, so much at the moment, but it doesn't mean they won't try somewhere else. and yeah, sure, i mean, nato will say to the ukraine's constant heartbreak that it's, his job is to protect every inch of nato territory. so when, when it comes to it,

i mean, that's really what they're doing here is making sure that their own territory is not vulnerable to any kind of, of russian invasion, including the hybrid warfare tactics that were mentioned here. so it does take some attention away from ukraine, but i mean, nato is unapologetic about the fact that that's why it exist. it would love to help push russia out of ukraine. if it doesn't mean any, you know, nato allies to boots on the ground. if, if allies can, you know, maintain their own self defense was what they sent to ukraine, but in the end, nato is really here to protect itself, and that's what steadfast defender is about. and marcus, your view is nato leaving ukraine hanging here as it looks, a potential for us elsewhere to. i would agree, i mean, we have the nato summit as you um, and in the, in the new claim it was denied for membership and the alternative would have been or has been sole goal, not security guarantees about security agreements with in the g 7 states.

and these amendments days and as far as i can see, that has not months in progress and this, the bates and in this agreement. and i think at the end of the day, i think all of western governments have to raise. and i have to ask themselves a glance and what are they going to do to defend ukraine? not only now, but also in 5 to 10 years. and i think that's a lot to improve. we're going to have to leave it there. thank you so much to our audience for watching enter my fantastic guests for your insights and analysis. i really appreciate your time today. you're watching at home and you enjoyed the show . let us know if you're watching on youtube. you can drop us a comments. i am quite richardson in berlin and i am so grateful you can take the time the next time the,

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this is the, the, the news coming to live from berlin, israel's conduct and gone. so it comes under scrutiny, the must run health ministry there says 20 people queuing for food. a were killed by his really take partner. they're calling it a war cry. israel's military says, the report is being investigated. a fancy is really away. it's a highly anticipated ruling from the un top court that could order in the media to stop to its military action in god's also coming up unanswered questions loom over a military plane crash in russia. the kremlin says the plane is carrying new premium prisoners of war. moscow and key of blame each other for the crash us

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