a big part of my family, what killed i'm on a journey to find out about the roots of the 1994 genocide for games for to see through under my name is some way to ship where i'm assuming makers shaming history out documentary stops. april 6th on dw, the national leaders say they don't want to be drawn into a war with russia. that's also what germany's transfer would actually cleans. but experts, a sort, russia has long been at war with the west and with germany put in use as many weapons and his covert war, cyber attacks, sabotage and this information for the latest examples of wiretapping affairs surrounding a conversation between the german army officials about delivering tourist miss house and to create it took little effort, but created maximum damage to germany's image. since the war and ukraine began the west, and especially germany, as keeps 2nd bo support supporter has been increasingly targeted by russia secret

service. its how dangerous is this shadow works and what can be done to counteract on to the point we ask rushes hybrid more fear the real threat to the west. the welcome to this week. to the point, i'm probably gonna guess it's good to have you with us, and these are today's guess that's the issue is an expert on russia at germany's cub foundation is ludy goslin, which is a former german and passenger to moscow and was also the vice president of the german federal intelligence service b and deep from 2004 to 2007 and whom i'm gonna try and go is my dw colleagues from ukraine, currently working with dw as russian service in by 12 year. thank you very much for being with us today, and i'd like to start with you. leslie, how does this hybrid warfare work and why isn't the public really aware that these

attacks are constantly happening? well, it's basically the concept of hybrid warfare that you don't initially notice that it's happening. hyper suassa can be anything that helps the security or the interest of one country and destroys the wants of another country. and that means this information campaigns in financing, elections, migration flows of us, we've seen in dollars and before. so all of those were attacks are not visible with the naked eye initially, but they do have a very big impact, at least in the long term impact that crane has certainly felt already home on. uh, you know, that all these attacks have been going on for years now and you are, you create him but you live here in jeremy. do you see a difference on how these types of attacks are perceived in those countries? well, of course there are differences. so, but they're also similarities. just to remind you, i'm speaking about why i type in ukraine had its 1st shopping experience. i would

say, while typing what russia was suspected to be behind. it was in the year 2000, 2001 a new credit and president of the time learned coach ma was a y, a tapped a talking about getting a journalist and a position john list under johns was killed that were processed in the country. but the result was that the pregnant president was discredited in the west and do covering the movement toward the west was stopped halted. uh, and in the 2003 ukraine. so there are some hybrid war and on the island of those love, which is between uh, mainland russia and ukraine. and it came yeah. russia was trying to build a, um, kind of way, a land land um bridges at the bridge, but to uh, to connect by land uh those 2 parts. and this is seen as the beginning of what we latest or, and well, a lot rush related to the crime in bridge that the german, a general. so for the lift off of we're talking about how you can go destroyed it

was german corps, missiles, taurus, so it's a very long story. but the problem is, as you've just said, you don't see it at once. and um, it took a long time for crying to understand that it was extra, it's a hybrid. what with russia when we later talk, maybe about the media because media is, is the key to the hybrid warfare. we certainly see that it took a long time for ukraine. it's certainly also taking a long time for germany. apparently we've got restaurants not only known for performing these hybrid attacks, but also for executing them extremely well. our, the russian secret service is more capable, more sophisticated under western counterparts. first, i think we do have excellent intelligence services, and our countries are called probably very closely, and they're there to protect all democracies. second, the russian intelligent services were there to undermine or democracies and to protect the tucker, see a huge,

a very aggressive there on the present. but they're not always good. they too often get caught with a hand in the cookie jar. but we think of the case is like, uh, the russian service is sending to spies into to the u. k. to try to assassinate an opponent with a means of foxy warfare to print to, for all as for the internet to his type of who they were, that the rest of the secret services were behind it. if we think of the as a nation of, of a church and leader here in building and in bright daylight. again, it took a very short time to establish. it was a us and the secret service bound. they are not always good. and we do have good means at hand, i think to come to that to do. however, their impression is that some of the western countries and especially germany, is a bit bonneville, the so called taurus leaks were a particularly good example of precious hybrid warfare. and recent times with far reaching consequences even days after being published, they continue to cause controversy within the german government and in public

debate. an exclusively a recording of a conversation between high ranking german and false offices. that talking about taurus, cruise missiles, which have a long range and tremendous destructive power, specifically about possibly sending these items to ukraine and about potential targets. for example, the coach bridge, which connects crimea with russia and just seen by ukraine as a symbol of russian occupation. the taurus revelations are a major embarrassment. full button. that's alice's. it's in and feed us game by troops and we cannot to full for its mission often lines the recording was published on social media by magazine testing among young, the head of the russian state. broad, costa russia, today, the kremlin, this response question on nato colleagues are extremely guilty. we'll have to see how they explains as to that roads happening to the is the west to catalyst,

and it's defense against russian hybrid attacks. it certainly seems. so now we've got report suggests that at least one of the german military officers wasn't using a secure line, is this more russian intelligence or more german failure to assess the risk? well, whatever it was, we wouldn't be much better and much more successful if we simply obliged to the rules we have imposed upon all selves to use means of, of the digital world of social media. without protection, of course, is an extremely dangerous that the digital world is a dream come true for intelligence surfaces like calling. if you use lots f or, or email or sigma or whoever or zoom, it's like using a mega phone in the city. so we must be more aware of what's, what's happening. we must build the wellness in our countries, and we must stop constantly discussing the issues the russian side,

throwing at us. they want to keep us busy by discussing issues of what have we done wrong or issues like and then we guilty of the russian aggression when i was invested or must go. i'd sometimes had the impression it was us when they did crime . yeah. so, and that is part of russian the hybrid warfare, to keep the other side busy with discussing an array of issues. what we must do is focus on what is actually going on. there is a russian impression that it's a russian aggression against ukraine. and it is a rusnick, aggression against us, against our security on liberty of freedom in our countries. and we must build out the public discussion over and again to that point and not constantly discuss what the russians would like us to discuss. however, the russians are very successful in placing topics in the agenda, and in this case, let's see. the problem with these types of leaks specifically is that they are true . it's not fixed and use, it's not this information. the conversations actually happened. how far will these,

the western countries and allies to cases like this as well? i think the biggest problem that is, that for russia, a success is already spreading doubts. you know, unit in the west is the biggest weapon we have against russia. and we now see, you know, that the, the, our partners reacted well, not very amused about what was happening, the trust them germany is going down with this. and that's already a successful russia at cost of time. we once a year, a play a policy game and last year we did play a game that focused on hybrid attacks on european infrastructure. and the 1st thing that our country teams, which our decision makers from european countries talked about was european cohesion ended. it went up in the air, it was really hard to, to keep straight with this unit to you. and i think about us, that is the most important thing we have to focus on. and that is what's put in will always try to attack 1st. but do you think this is a germany elite problem, or could this also happen to france or the case a, or even the us?

it's definitely happening happening everywhere. but i think at this moment it's working very well in germany. and those narratives also connect to other narrative . so you have a, you know, distrust in the system. you will see those narratives, we think very well also with people who were against cobra's acceptance. like there's, there's very clear combinations between groups that just don't trust what they called the official narrative, what we would call the truth. um, so yeah, this plays into it. so there's very easy ground for those narrative to, to grow and to stay in, in durham and this course. it's also important to note if there is a specific goal on one of these attacks of women, we know that russia is trying to prevent germany from delivering those stories, marseilles, to ukraine. how big an impact at this specific attacks have on that goal? a? well, it was a huge blow, i would say to the, to the whole attempts of the west. and especially the of german has

a leading country in europe to help your crime because it, as you've said, it undermines the trust. and we have so much such big cases. but um, other issues when, when germany's awareness was, was questioned. for example, the case of the a, b, n, d m, a officer who's not on trial in building for working for russia. and of course, those is cases up. i think it's important to understand what you've said in germany has been a favorite, the russian playground for decades because of the ties between the 2 countries, because the germans were to a certain point blind towards russia. so i think that they couldn't see certain things. they maybe didn't want to see them because it would mean the breaking of, of, of ties, which was decades long, economic ties, political ties,

cultural ties. so people didn't want to do that. and maybe one more point i think is important. and that, that story was taurus, we still don't know all the answers, but what we see is the most fia. why was those offices doing such things? i think part of the answer is because there is this whole feeling here in germany. we are not at all with russia, which is correct. i've been talking to you on the hill who is the one of the best russia expressing the west and was a former advisor to the us administrations. and she said one very interesting thing, which is, which is obvious, but you have to speak it out. she said, we all know what, that's what we've russia, but russia is that what with us at the hybrid war? and this is something, not everyone understands here in germany. i think after this, taurus issue, things will change. this is what i hope. but there's been talk about russia attacking germany in one way or another and the west for a long time. good guy, you were there in 2014 rush. i made it to me where the investment in moscow. why do

you think in action was the response? at least that's the perception. and will this change this time? in retrospect, history always seems to be linear, but only in retrospect, if it would be linear, everybody could tell us today we're trying to, it's heading and we're trying to, we'll be doing 5 years from now and how we should behave, we don't know. so, or in a given situation, you always have to deal with numerous options. you have to respond, which happened, then was strength and a clear answer while at the same time look for solutions that could be possible to settle the given issue. relating to pushing to speak about the narrative of history didn't become president in december 1999 in order to invade ukraine. on february 24th 2022 as he is a k, to be officer and he himself and said once like a caged be always case you be can you be offices? i'm not trained a strategist, they are trained as technical operational activists. and that's what he is good as

good that he has always sort of 5 options at the table. and he will proceed with the one where he gets through, where he gets away with. and he'll get away with where we don't take a clear stance and give a clear answer to what he is doing. and where we in our discussion back home, don't over and again establish what the whole situation really is about where we fall into his traps. it's a trip of doubt. the spreading is, let's be right, the say, and particularly it's a trap of fear is building. the russia has 3 traditional export goods which are successful. fossil fuels, arms, and fear. russia is exporting fee. they are rooting the country inside with fear and repression that trying to create fear in our countries to sort of influence our discourse, our discussion, make people afraid, and our response to what is happening in ukraine and as an attack against us is led

to often drop by our logics, we must think in the logic of the other side, what are they up to and where therefore also a sore key could be found out of the given situation. the problem is certainly complex and complex are the solutions, assessing hybrid more is difficult. it's never officially declared, and it happens as we've heard, underground and as unnoticed as possible. let's have a closer look at the most important activities of the russian secret services in their hybrid warfare. the brick freezing spelling is all in full months, a secret service classic. there also religious traits has like cost and l in the german federal intelligence service. he is set to have post on confidential information to the russian secret service when it comes to sabotage, submarine cables and other critical infrastructure, particularly vulnerable, which the example of the north street and gas pipelines shows will start,

sees and institutions such as the e u. holloman's and the german boom just talk of being targeted by cyber attacks. that communications happen into set to them. secret data obtained using trojans. election propaganda is in full swing. the european elections will be held in june and have to there a fee is that person could use this information to weeks. the targeted influence? how come the west counts of hooton's co, but tools? that's of course, the $1000000.00 question. i'm throwing it to you. leslie, what can be done? i think the most important part is education. people need to be aware of what's happening and preparation. this happening with the nature of the last summit, there was emphasized that you know, sign up cyber warfare hybrid attacks would be included in the an article 5. this isn't easy. it's not always easy to prove where those attacks came from. although it might be obvious who meant my benefit, but you know,

you're kind you have to prove something like this before calling article 5. but i think part of just to explain drawing, you know, just, just in case of the article, it says that if one nato country is attacked, it's at war with all of nato country. yes. so the others will, will stand on that side and does especially relevant for countries like the politics which are very close to the russian border. but also to us, it's happening. it's happening to us every day. and we don't know when something big might be coming. so i think preparing for this very close cooperation with our allies is vital for this. and as we see a potential jump presidency coming back and we should be doing that within the you and within our european fall spaces of, of cooperation, especially right now, unity is important. but when you know that your train is at a full own war with west, all right, now, what are some examples of successful strategies that can be taken even by all the western allies to counter the hybrid work? well, i think that um, the ukrainian cyber defense is a very good example of

a ukraine and success because that works potations that rush on my to, to crying in the cyber a very, very hot this didn't happen. i think the result is that the kind prepared for that and i think the west is not the at the ready for, for the challenge at the moment. so we haven't seen maybe major um cyber attacks, but they still could come. and um, the example of that wire tapping of the buddhist where offices, high ranking officers is assigned to and not everyone is aware of the danger that is there. um, i would like to say that i'm in the field of media. we are still on the per pad, i think because, and you can was also under prepared when brush right next time. yeah, it took your crank 6 months to kick russian tv channels out of the networks 6 months after the invited. so kendall is not ready for that. and it's also a problem for germany. we don't have um, some, some russian channels, a blog,

but not every one of them. so you can still watch russian television. and we have a huge russian, russian speaking population in germany. the german possible, it's watching russian television, watching russian propaganda. and we don't know exactly what's going to be done about them. so how can we better inform them and, and not let them be used against the german state in cases like and that story was the, the young go. these are in germany a few years ago when the russian propaganda trying just to unrest in germany. so such cases would come again. so the question of course is how does germany counter that in an institutional level as well? we know where to go to germany, of course is doing things. um is it enough so, and is it in line with a liberal democracy to say perform a tax like the rest of the tax a weaker and then the other side exempted that area. we are well for very good

reasons. we're not ready to deal was exactly the same means to counter and vice versa, right. so on the other hand, we must realize that for example, germany is a country is changing tremendously with a huge tank and we're sort of turning course slowly. we come a long way, and now we have the 2nd most important fly, a supply of arms to ukraine, doing more per capita than the united states. i'll explain you on denmark and others even do more per capita. and one thing that is extremely important, i think, is to have more self confidence, confidence into the supremacy of all the system and our solutions. because we all supreme liberal democracies are able to change. they have an open discourse, we can select a new government, we can change course, a talk receives a stuck with their solutions and we see it in the case of russia that it's sort of

narrowing down more and more and is just as one autocrat leading his country into the f, as in the long run, the system con function is taken his economy into a war economy, the spending, the national reserve of the country. he's losing income from oil and gas if used to be 50 percent of the state budgets know 28 percent is spending 40 percent of his budget on his warfare. and he is afraid of reactions from his own people. i mean, how weak is a regime that arrests people where they flowers to commemorate and assessing dated critic. so let's have more self confidence. we are able to withstand this onslaught which happens in, in many ways, through hybrid well for etc. but we're able to withstand how about that confidence here in germany? leslie would you agree that it's lacking in that it should be more and some people even say that germans are not really aware of the risks that they are into right

now? or i would agree with us, i think many people are not aware of that in politics decision making as well and in society. and i think it's important to note that it's not only about what's happening in a crate and it's not on need this information about like with rest uh, words, ukraine related topics. it's anything. it's basically anything that will bring us, you know, in, in a discourse that is more fighting than unit united docs. and then i think that's very important to note. and i would like to add to, to agree to just point that i think, yes we, we do have a ways to, to deal with, with what's happening in ukraine. that's our superior because of our direct democratic background. but i think we have to remember that we're right now in a world where we have to stand up for those values. and if we don't do that, and we don't do that in a very many a way, we will lose that leveretts. and yeah, i think there it goes far beyond the borders of the crane arissa and but that,

that plays into it as well. and i think that is also something that we're not aware of enough at this moment. the ability to change is very important, but human ukrainians have complained many times about the in action and long reaction times of western allies. what's the perspective there on the possibility to prepare and to react to what's going on in countries that need discussion and the need due process? well, you can learn from ukraine of course now, but for you. okay. it's in regard for me too late to be a good example. um, but um just just what, so let's maybe look at some other things that are happening and that could happen also in germany. look and look, look back at the united states, the presidential campaign, and the rush. i licked the information from the democratic party to the media to the world, trying to undermine the democratic presidential candidate. this is hybrid warfare i would prepare for such a technology company. i'm not sure, but we should be,

and such things happen all over the world, so it's much broader than just to crime. so russia is a, sees itself in a hybrid. what with the west was west them countries, especially the eastern and central central europe. but now in germany, especially, and this is, this is why they, they did a told the tribes to undermine the relationship between germany, france and u. k. as the major, don't know, still ukraine. they knew that there was some tensions before. they didn't have to do that because the chancellor schultz actually said, said we would not deliver taras missiles through grain. he had gave his reasons. so there was no, no reason. absolutely for russia to be exact. but they did it why? i think that they wanted just to undermine the relationship within nato. yes. undermined the german the trust in germany. i do think we're heading into the right direction with that. did it work or do you still see cohesion video? basically we're heading into the right direction. the european union is a very strong institution,

a very close alliance with build enormous successes over the years we must become better than a joint and eunice, on foreign and security policy. we must undertake efforts in that sense. and as a country we must prioritize the topics and the issues. what is important security? it's education, it's fucking climate change and it's economic competitiveness. and that is something the government and politics must overall communicate more. and if we do that, then we can focus more on the real threat. we are dealing with unity us. the main response of the 3 of you is required to face these challenges. that's all that we have time for this week. thank you so much for watching. remember, you can participate in the discussion any time. and by joining us on youtube, the name, you know, what is the w news for? you'll find this and all our other folks. thank you so much for watching. i'm going to guess till next time. take care the

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