it took a little effort to create a maximum damage to germany's image since the war and ukraine began the west, and especially germany, as keeps 2nd bo support supporter has been increasingly targeted by russia secret service. it's how dangerous is this shadow works and what can be done to counter it . on to the point we ask rushes hybrid more fear the real threat to the west. the welcome to this week. to the point, i'm probably gonna guess it's good to have you with us, and these are today's guess that's the issue is an expert on russia at germany's cub foundation miss ludy goslin, which is a former german and passenger to moscow and was also the vice president of the german federal intelligence service b and deep from 2004 to 2007 and whom i'm going to think or is my dw colleague from ukraine. currently working with

w as russian service. and by 12 you thank you very much for being with us today, and i'd like to start with you. leslie, how does this hybrid warfare work and why isn't the public really aware that these attacks are constantly happening? well, it's basically the concept of hype and warfare that you don't initially notice that it's happening. hyper suassa can be anything that helps the security or the interest of one country and destroys the wants of another country. and that means this information campaigns in financing, elections, migration flows of us, we've seen invalid ruth and before so all of those were attacks are not visible with the naked eye initially, but they do have a very big impact, at least in the long term, an impact that crane has certainly felt already home on. uh, you know, that all these attacks have been going on for years now and you are, you create him but you live here in jeremy. do you see a difference on how these types of attacks are perceived in the country?

well, of course there are different system, but there are also similarities. um, um, just to remind you, i'm speaking about why i type in ukraine had its 1st shopping experience. i would say, while typing with russia was suspected to be behind, it was in the year, 2000 to 1001 a new credit and president of the time learned coach ma was a y, a taft talking about getting a journalist and a position john the list under johns was killed that were processed in the country . but the result was that the pregnant president was discredited in the west and do, covering the movement towards the west was stopped halted and in the 2003 ukraine. so there are some hybrid war and on the island of those low, which is between mainland russia and ukraine and it came, yeah. russia was trying to build a kind of way, a land land and bridges most of the bridge, but to connect by land. uh,

those 2 parts and this is seen as the beginning of what the latest or, and well a lot rush related to the crime in bridge. the german, a general. so for the lift off of we're talking about how you can go destroyed it was german act was missiles, taurus, so it's a very long story. but the problem is, as you've just said, you don't see it at once. and um, it took a long time for crying to understand that it was actually at the hybrid. what was russia when we later talk, maybe about the media because media is, is the key to the hybrid warfare. we certainly see that it took a long time for you kind of certainly also taking a long time for germany. apparently we've got restaurants not only known for performing these hybrid attacks, but also for executing them extremely well. our, the russian secret service is more capable, more sophisticated than their western counterparts. first, i think we do have excellent intelligence over this in our countries. they're called probably very closely, and they're there to protect all democracies. second,

the russian intelligence services, whether to undermine or democracies, and to protect the talk receive a huge, a very aggressive there on the present. but they're not always good. they too often get caught with a hand in the cookie jar. but we think of the case is like, uh, the russian service is sending to spies into to the u. k. to try to assassinate an opponent was a means of foxy warfare. 24 hours for the internet to establish who they were, that the rest and secret services were behind it. if we think of the as a nation of, of a church and leader here in building and in bright daylight. again, it took a very short time to establish, it was a us and the secret service bound. they are not always good. and we do have good means at hand. i think to come to that to what they do. however, their impression is that some of the western countries and especially germany, is a bit vulnerable. the so called taurus leaks were a particularly good example of precious hybrid warfare and recent times with far

reaching consequences even days after being published they continue to cause controversy within the german government. and in public debate, an explosive leak, a recording of a conversation between the high ranking german air force offices that talking about taurus, cruise missiles, which have a long range and tremendous destructive power. specifically about possibly sending these items to ukraine and about potential targets. for example, the coach bridge, which connects crime, you know, with russia and just seen by ukraine as a symbol of russian occupation. the taurus revelations are a major embarrassment. full button. that's alice is it's an individual game by troops and you don't, and we cannot to full for its mission often lines the recording was published on social media by mug of the test team on the, on the head of the russian state, broad costs,

the russia today the kremlin is response on nato colleagues are extremely guilty. we'll have to see how they explains us to that runs happening to the is the west to catalyst, and it's defense against russian hybrid attacks. it certainly seems. so now we've got reports suggest that at least one of the german military officers was in using a secure line. is this more russian intelligence or more german failure to assess the risk? well, whatever it was, we wouldn't be much better and much more successful if we simply obliged to the rules. we have them post a button. all cells to use means of, of the digital world of, of social media without protection of course is an extremely dangerous that the digital world is a dream come true for intelligence surfaces like calling. if you use whatsapp or, or email or signal to whoever or zoom, it's like using

a mega phone in the city. so we must be more aware of what's, what's happening. we must build awareness in our countries and we must stop constantly discussing the issues the russian side throwing at us. they want to keep us busy by discussing issues of what have we done wrong or if it's like. and then we guilty of the russian aggression. when i was invested or must collide sometimes said the impression it was us when they did the crimea. so, and that is part of russian the hybrid warfare. to keep the other side busy with discussing an array of issues, what we must do is focus on what is actually going on. there is a russian impression that it's a russian aggression against ukraine. and it is a rusnick, aggression against us, against our security, our liberty of freedom in our countries. and we must build out the public discussion over and again to that point, and not constantly discuss what the russians would like us to discuss. however, the russians are very successful in placing topics in the agenda, and in this case,

let's do the problem with these types of leaks specifically, is that they are true. it's not fixed and use, it's not this information. the conversations actually happened. how far will you see western countries and allies to cases like this as well? i think the biggest problem that is, that for us, uh, a success is already spreading doubts. you know, unity in the west is the biggest weapon we have against russia. and we now see, you know, that the, the, our partners reacted well, not very amused about what was happening, the trust them germany is going down with this. and that's already a success for russia. at cost of time we once a year, a play a part of the game. and last year we did play a game that focused on hybrid attacks on your pin infrastructure. and the 1st thing that our country teams, which are decision makers from european countries talked about was european cohesion. and it, it went up in the air. it was really hard to, to keep straight with this unit to you. and i think about us, that is the most important thing we have to focus on,

and that is what's put in will always try to attack 1st. but do you think this is a germany elite problem or it could, this also happened to france or the u. k, say, or even the us, it's definitely happening happening everywhere. but i think at this moment it's working very well in germany. and those narratives also connect to other narrative . so you have a, you know, this trust in the system. you will see those narratives routine very well. also with people who were against cold with vic seems like there's, there's very clear combinations between groups that just don't trust what they called the official narrative, what we would call the truth. and so yeah, this plays into it, so there's, yeah, very easy ground for those narratives to um, to grow and to stay in in german discourse. it's also important to note if there is a specific goal on one of these attacks of women, we know that russia is trying to prevent germany from delivering those stores missiles to ukraine. how big an impact at this specific attacks have on that goal

as well. um, it was a huge blow, i would say to the, to the whole attempt of the west and especially of germany has a leading country in europe to help ukraine. because as you've said, it undermines the trust and we've had some not such big cases. but um, other issues when, when germany's awareness was, was questioned, for example, the case of the a, b, n, d m, a officer who's not on trial in building for working for russia. and of course, those is cases up. i think it's important to understand what you've said. gemini has been a favorite russian playground for decades because of the ties between the 2 countries, because the germans were to a certain point blind towards russia. so i think that they couldn't see certain

things. they maybe didn't want to see them because it would mean the breaking of, of, of ties, which was decades long, economic ties, political ties, cultural ties. so people didn't want to do that. and maybe one more point i think is important. and that, that story was taurus, we still don't know all the answers, but what we see is the most fia. why were those offices doing such things? i think part of the answer is because there is this whole feeling here in germany. we are not at all with russia, which is correct. i've been talking to you on the hill who is one of the best russia expressing the west and was a former advisor to the us administrations. and she said one very interesting thing, which is, which is obvious, but you have to speak it out. she said, we are not as old as russia, but russia. is that what with us at the hybrid war? and this is something, not everyone understands here in germany. i think after this, taurus issue, things will change. this is what i hope. but there's been talk about

a russian attack in germany in one way or another, and the west for a long time. who the guy you were there in 2014. when rushing made it to me, where the master to moscow, why do you think in action was the response? at least that's the perception. and will this change this to? or in retrospect, history always seems to be linear, but only in retrospect, if it would be linear, everybody could tell us today what china is heading and we're trying to, we'll be doing 5 years from now and how we should be here. we don't know. so in a given situation, you always have to deal with numerous options. you have to respond, which happens then was strength and a clear answer while at the same time look for solutions that could be possible to settled. a given issue relating to pushing to speak about the narrative of history didn't become president in december 1999 in order to invade ukraine. on february 24th 2022, as he is a k, to be officer and he himself and said once like a cage,

be always case you be can you be offices? i'm not trained strategists, they are trained as technical operational activists. and that's what he is good as good that he has always sort of 5 options at the table. and he will proceed with the one where he gets through, where he gets away with. and he'll get away with where we don't take a clear stance and give a clear answer to what he is doing. and where we in our discussion back home, don't over and again establish what the whole situation really is about where we fall into his traps. it's a trip of doubt. the spreading is, let's be right, you say, and particularly it's a trap of fear is building. the russia has 3 traditional export goods which are successful. fossil fuels, arms, and fear russia is exporting for you. they are rooting the country inside with fear and repression that trying to create fear in our countries to sort of influence our

discourse, our discussion, make people afraid, and our response to what is happening in ukraine and as an attack against us is led to often drop by our logic, we must think in the logic of the other side, what are they up to and where therefore also a sore key could be found out of the given situation. the problem is certainly complex and complex are the solutions, assessing a hybrid more is difficult, it's never officially declared, and it happens as we've heard, underground and as unnoticed as possible. let's have a closer look at the most important activities of the russian secret services in their hybrid warfare. the brick freezing spelling is all in full months, a secret service classic. they're also religious traits is like cost and l in the german federal intelligence service. he is said to have post on confidential information to the russian secret service when it comes to sabotage,

submarine cables and other critical infrastructure, a particularly vulnerable which the example of the north street and gas pipelines shows. all storage sees and institutions such as the e u parliament and the german fondest talk of being targeted by cyber attacks. that communications happen, interest set to them. secret data obtained using trojans. election propaganda is in full swing, the european elections will be held in june and here to the real fee is that person could use this information to reach the targeted influence. how come the west township hooton's co vote tools? that's of course, the $1000000.00 question. i'm throwing it to you. leslie, what can be done? i think the most important part is education. people need to be aware of what's happening and preparation. this happening with the nature of the last summit was emphasized that you know, 5 up cyber warfare hybrid attacks would be included in the an article 5. this isn't

easy. it's not always easy to prove where those attacks came from. although it might be obvious who meant my benefit, but you know, you're kind, you have to prove something like this before calling article 5. but i think of just to explain to, you know, just just in case of the article, it says that if one nato country is attacked, it's more with all the nato countries. yes. so the others will, will stand on that side and does especially relevant for countries like the politics which are very close to the russian border. but also to us, it's happening. it's happening to us every day. and we don't know when something big might be coming. so i think preparing for this very close cooperation with our allies is vital for this. and as we see a potential of trump presidency coming back and we should be doing that within the u and within our european. so spaces of, of cooperation, especially right now is unity as important. but when you know that your train is at a full own war with west, all right. now, what are some examples of successful strategies that can be taken even by all the

western allies to counter the hybrid work? well i think that um, the ukrainian cyber defense is a very good example of a ukraine and success because that works for patients that russia might who do crying in the cyber a very, very hot this didn't happen. i think the result is the do kind prepared for that and i think the west is not yet the ready for, for the challenge at the moment. so we haven't seen maybe major um cyber attacks, but they still could come. and um, the example of that wire tapping of the buddhist where offices, high ranking officers is assigned to and not everyone is aware of the danger that is there. um i would like to say that um, in the field of media, we are still under pad. i think because, and you can was also under pad when brush right next time. yeah, it took your crank 6 months to kick russian tv channels out of the networks 6

months after the invited. so kendall is not ready for that. um, and it's also a problem for germany. we don't have um some, some russian channels, a blog, but not everyone of them. so you can still watch russian television. and we have a huge rush and russian speaking population in germany. german possible. it's watching russian television, watching russian propaganda and we don't know exactly what can be done about them. so how can be better informed them and, and not let them be used against the german state in cases like and that story was the, the young go these in germany a few years ago when the russian propaganda try and destroy unrest in germany. so such cases would come again. so the question of course is how does germany counter that in an institutional level as well? we know where to go to germany, of course is doing things. so is it enough? so, and is it in line with a liberal democracy to say, perform

a tax like the rest of the tax a weaker and then the other side exempted that area? we are well for very good reasons. we're not ready to deal was exactly the same means to counter and vice versa, right. so on the other hand, we must realize that for example, germany is a country is changing tremendously with a huge tank and we're sort of turning course slowly. we come a long way, and now we have the 2nd most important fly, a supply of arms to ukraine, doing more per capita than the united states. i'll explain. young denmark and others even do more per capita. and one thing that is extremely important, i think, is to have more self confidence, confidence into the supremacy of all the system in our solutions. because we all supreme liberal democracies are able to change. they have an open

discourse, we can select a new government, we can change course, a talk receives of stuck with the solutions and we see it in the case of russia that it's sort of narrowing down more and more and is just as one autocrat leading his country into the f, as in the long run, the system con function is taken. his economy into a war economy is spending the national reserve of the country. he's losing income from oil and gas if used to be 50 percent of the state buckets know 28 percent is spending 40 percent of his budget on his warfare. and he is afraid of reactions from his own people. i mean, how weak is a regime that arrests people who are they flowers to commemorate and assassinated critic. so let's have more self confidence. we are able to withstand this onslaught which happens in, in many ways, through hybrid well for etc. but we're able to withstand how about that confidence

here in germany? leslie would you agree that it's lacking in that it should be more and some people even say that germans are not really aware of the risks that they are into right now. i would agree with us, i think many people are not aware of that in politics decision making as well and in society. and i think it's important to note that it's not only about what's happening in a crate and it's not on need this information about like with rest uh words, kramer, that just topics is anything. it's basically anything that will bring us, you know, in, in a discourse that is more fighting then you know, united docs. and then i think that's very important to note. and i would like to add to, to agree to just point that i think, yes we, we do have a ways to, to deal with, with what's happening in ukraine. that's our superior because of our direct democratic background. but i think we have to remember that we're right now in a world where we have to stand up for those values. and if we don't do that, and we don't do that in

a very linear way and we will lose that leveretts. and yeah, i think there it goes far beyond the borders of the crane arissa and but that, that plays into it as well. and i think that is also something that we're not aware of enough at this moment. the ability to change is very important, but women ukrainians have complained many times about the inaction and long reaction times of western allies. what's the perspective there on the possibility to prepare and to react to what's going on in countries that need discussion and the neat due process? well, you can learn from ukraine of course now, but for you. okay. it's in regard for me too late to be a good example. um, but um just just what, so let's maybe look at some other things that are happening and that could happen also in germany. look and look, look back at the united states, the presidential campaign, and the rush. i licked the information from the democratic party to the media to

the world, trying to undermine the democratic presidential candidate. this is hybrid warfare i would prepare for such an addict. now in germany, i'm not sure, but we should be, and such things happen all over the world, so it's much broader than just to crime. so russia is a, sees itself in a hybrid well with the west was bust him countries, especially in the eastern and central central europe. but now in germany, especially, and this is, this is why they, they did a told the tribes to undermine the relationship between germany, france and u. k. as the major, don't know, still ukraine. they knew that there was some tensions before. they didn't have to do that because the chancellor schultz actually said, said we would not deliver tourist missiles through grade. he had gave his reasons, so there was no, no reason. absolutely for russia to be exact. but they did it, why i think that they wanted just to undermine the relationship within nato. yes. undermined the german the trust in germany. i do think we're heading into the right

direction with that. did it work or do you still see cohesion video? basically we're heading into the right direction. the european union is a very strong institution, a very close to lunch. we've built the normal successes over the years. we must become better than a joint and eunice, on foreign and security policy. we must undertake efforts in that sense and as a country, we must prioritize the topics and the issues, but it's important security. it's education, it's fucking climate change and it's economic competitiveness. and that's just something the government and politics must overall communicate more. and if we do that, then we can focus more on the real threat. we are dealing with unity us. the main response of the 3 of you is required to face these challenges. that's all that we have time for this week. thank you so much for watching. remember, you can participate in the discussion any time. and by joining us on youtube, the name, you know, what is the w news for?

you'll find this and all our other shows. thank you so much for watching. i'm going to guess till next time. take care. the

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