the supply chain process all that much. illegal leather stats may stood on d. w. the exposed and exhausted things are getting worse on ukraine's eastern front, as russian troops advance and air strikes. humble cities, especially ukraine's. the 2nd biggest target air campaigns are knocking out ukrainian energy facilities and ukraine's top and military commander. warning the situation in the east has deteriorated significantly. 2 hours north of a cube and it can, you have the death toll rises again from russian missiles. ukraine is calling for more help from the west for aid from the united states and federal protection. as russia intensifies its air strikes campaign, we are asking how to strengthen ukraine's air defenses. the

hello and welcome to this week's edition of to the point time claire richardson in berlin and barrels. welcome our panel of guests. this week. we have a usually out of the demco, a visiting researcher at the free university of berlin, and associate professor at heart chief national university. alexander sort of fellow at a center for international security at the hair to school in berlin, and military experts. both congress said joining us today from vienna a very warm welcome at to you all. thank you for taking the time. you will. let's begin with you. your home city is hard. see if i understand you even still have family who are living there. can you tell us a little bit what the situation is like at the moment? yeah, i have not done the time of that. i still work in the, at the university and we are teaching online. i and my students are also then hard

to you. the situation is really critical, but i wouldn't say that the russian military forces move closer to the seats, it in a significant way by the russians to attack in ukrainian cities. and these not on the hartfield bought those which have any here recently yesterday with the lease house and drones. and that is the system as of problem for the seats in the attic point that now all would be a significant tower. my power plants are destroyed and as the analytics the in the numbers you center says it's probably couldn't be a repeat this centralized heat into for the winter season for it's common. now, most of the people have no electricity at all for 20 or 12 hours. it depends on their districts, and normally the electricity is available for consumers at night. so

a lot of people, they try not to sleep at all just to, to make the, you know, they routine. so this is having a huge impact on daily life. and hark, you've already with these power outages. yeah. but for a while, i mean that's i have a positive message, not the sounds too much pessimistic a. do you to rush it attacked to raise your heart of human 2022 instead of 23. that are a lot of businesses so which is c will function in a lot of critical infrastructure to look at hospitals like are the services we are working in kind of the extreme o, but normal way to those cities to leave in. now i want to come to both kind of a to ask a little bit more about the strategic elements. your heart has been under missile and artillery fire for weeks. what you think does make it such an important target for russia the russian small to destroy the

energy supply in a book right in a love just. busy destroying the civilian needs to create a good interest or a structure such but the long to have of cross and the introduction of the electricity needed for running red road, which is very important for the supplier. after seeing the long transport lines from best bottles of. ready into the trunk lines in the east and in the south. and for that electricity is, of course, one of those or trust or things that is needed. and 2nd of all, the elements i mentioned lensky as a proposed order was approved increase or credit union and industries ago. and they are relying on and that's your supply. and if that isn't interrupted or this plan cannot be phone trip. and alex, what kind of impact do you think these attacks have on the civilian population and infrastructure in our case, to what i think the situation is quite dire. and i would also build on. but i was

going to said that the problem is of cost of now, um that, uh, the trainings don't have enough ammunition. so for the defense systems, the problem of cost is that they have to choose, what do they want to defend. and if the russians by hitting the energy infrastructure, the problem is it's sort of a vicious cycle. so, so the, the energy interest factors being destroyed and they can't produce the arms that they need and with that of caustic cons prospect, the russians. and if the rest are pushed back, the attacks will only increase. um, so this is really the problem here. so pushes them into a place where they're having to make very difficult decisions about what you prioritize. let's come back to this conversation in just a moment. i do want to take a closer look at our keys itself because we've been speaking about it so much with a pre war population of about 1500000 people. it is the 2nd biggest city in ukraine

after kids. and it lies just 40 kilometers south of the russian border, which makes it particularly vulnerable. it is, in fact, close enough. the russian missiles could reach it in less than a minute. caterina's allegiance was resting when an explosion shook her entire apartment block. a russian guided bomb exploded in the back yard. i covered my head with my hands, waited for the moment of exclusion. i felt the shockwave move down my body and everything was coming down to the one man was killed in the attack, and the residents are in shock. cartridge has been under constant fire since mid march ukraine. second largest city is located only a few kilometers from the russian border, leaving residents with virtually no warning of attacks. system football and we have a catastrophic shortage of air defense system site and not only in the courtesy of

region, but throughout the whole country, which especially in the car keep regional or on the heart of your senior or so we will the russian army has been targeting car keys, vital infrastructure in particular like power plants without energy, water and food pollutant hopes to demoralize the people of ukraine and leave the country dry. how much longer can you create hold on to its cities in the east? i'll put that question straight to vall, sky and how long it can that ukraine hold onto it. cities in the east, under circumstances like the ones that we've just seen. in our case, a launch would love to distinguish between the bowling company and also russians against the energy infrastructure, transport infrastructure, and the situation at the front. lot that the front lines will, can be 1st law because it will create in the military, it say something, or if you of the russians in terms of person that about those in terms of

immunization, awareness of what makes a big difference if the premiums can maybe as the short tools organized, so they speak about attend rate was the rationalists, can have a 7 level $10000.00 per day. this can be phase now at the front lines. and that is the reason why they were cutting is have to do both. they have to look for better supply and this is self cost, the task of the rest. and the 2nd, they have to look at a more personal note at the front lines that are running short pause to allow that means that have to shop with different plans and they cannot type it low at a higher cost for every village. so probably they have to give up here and they ask some villages to, to elect to flat down the, the trump lands and to safe pass on their end to one shop, locked the leaf again in the grass already except there's a possibility to read it. and find territory to control of it. all right,

and i think this is not realistic. i'm so ukraine lacking in, in multiple areas. and i do want to return to the issue of personnel shortly. but 1st you, we're looking at that report we just saw, it must be difficult to watch having students and family there. as we've seen russia carrying out these huge attacks on russian energy facilities. can you tell us more about how people are experiencing these in ukraine and how dangerous of development it is? yeah, really. it was a hot breaking video for me because it was my neighborhood, some build them to which i destroyed the they addressed the residential ones less than one kilometer for all my my own apartment there. but i wanted to probably a little bit that we asked what welcome set because of course, so there is no sometimes when to applied for every village, but harkey of law is 2nd largest city of ukraine. and now, even despite the what tool it is more than 1000000 and 3 hundreds of people,

the more oh wow. more than 5 hundreds of thousands of people who are into on the display as people are leaving there. and they displaced within the region about an hour ago. harkey may are eager to have said that they are not going to as equate anyone from harv to forcibly. and also i bought 2 tickets for my mom who is visiting relatives and 2. and they are trained so ronnie and, and they're a sales seats available to buy. uh so yeah. as the seats, it's wise to leave normally. but the to be realistic. i have a bad for custody of pressure will continue to arise. people with this mess of at that's the most let alone she had to do it in the nights and early mornings and people civilians are not ready for this. and actually i will agree to all other

guest about the gap part in which ukraine is now because we definitely need to uh, what do you use some men, paul, we're on the front line and from another point, a few people are running out of formulation and that is the way to, but just have to be agreeing and society because even those who were thinking to, let's say, join, you're putting an army, a, b sup when they feel themselves less. but at that than the before, when it was reported that the and you let's say do leave the referral, my west kind of allies to arrive to your career and then the they, there's some successful operation on the front on. and they're also going into a situation where we're alex, we heard the commander in chief, these remarkable comments, but he's saying that the eastern front has significantly deteriorated the situation there. what does that look like in practical terms? well, i think this duration is quite dire, but um, to maybe not depressed of us too much. um, let me start with uh, with uh, with

a positive note here. and that is that it's still a very costly well for russia, russia, it's losing in all of these petals and the federal for of div car and so on. they're losing thousands of soldiers. they're losing um, with vehicles. um, so this is still the case. the problem all of costs is as boston has pointed out before in terms of attend or re, uh, ukraine's out gunned one to 5. it might be $1.00 to $10.00 in, in the coming weeks personnel. it's some areas on the front line, it's $1.00 to $7.00, right? so this is really a dire situation, but now ending with a positive note as well. we can change this, we have seen time. and again, if we ukraine, forgive it, the weapons who needs it, can sustain to fight against russia. and so, so to put it simply, the ukraine is losing. we're not doing enough. let's pick up on the personnel issue absence. that seems to come up repeatedly of both kind. we know that ukraine has

now lowered the minimum age for military conscription from $27.00 to $25.00. in order to replenish troops. how helpful do you think these new recruits will be to ukraine's cause? uh uh yeah, the kids little uh, came live to i have to say of the chevy discussion, the length of discussion in the bottom of that it has the effect said was wished for is discretion of a for the following reasons. it i see reading, it's called the address 402500000 people in the age. but these levels of costs work to be that would be sufficient to compensate for the credit union losses and to a causal no shortage and relief soldiers at the front line. so therefore, exhaustive of cost after 2 years of well, however, i think these figures of file from a really to and it takes

a lot of time to implement the law because people have, i mean, recruit that recording system has to be organized. so people have to be solved and then they have to be try it. they should not be sent to the contents too early. so the family is going to do. but until the exhausting soul just won't be able to be around tightened. there's a lot of reasons which like you can discuss what was why i feel that these figures unrealistic maybe because. busy of people tried to evade, i know that the new law is little increasing the punishment. so they're also going to evaluate a service. that's the maybe a lot of people are often preaching, particularly. ready residing in, in video contracts. so is that, does that cover you up there is still the outcome ritual then after some months enables it will grow, union forces to fill the gaps and to rotate and to release diligence that are

exhausted. and is your intact. and this has been a controversial law usually. can you tell us a little bit what you're hearing from ukraine about, about how it has divided society? yeah, it's a really, um, kind of problem i to question because a s to me is a political scientist. these issues, we aren't communicate to enough from political edits and ukraine. for example. mr. was a landscape president of euclid and he didn't even mention this new legislation. dude, and he's a, let's say, every day we deal uh appealed to, to nation. so he wants to the distance from these processes because he is a politician. and from the other point, the few, there are a lack of clarity who will be conscripted, whether people will be train a in the good to man. and then let's say here for what are the don't

a front line that are a lot of city land says bushel male city lance or phrase to be just put on a product line of to let's say they just updated their data. and i would say that the, uh, i can see some positive uh, norms in these legislation because it gets smoke clarity of the box from another point of view. it's not the real good side. so we can just call that the assets of the seller gets lation will be kind of wheezing. bo uh, close at 2 autumn. oh probably winter. because in the monster the lo will be enforced. then people a has a have 2 minds to reduce their or to update the data. then it is said to 30 um commission who are deciding the capacity of 5 percent of the education level. the other reasons this house,

the condition of the particular person. and then we also need to mon, you to this new legislation to, to the, for these people to train me. so it is not the immediate response of course. and then i load those stipulation uh, with the new claim society. and i would say that a lot of russian information, upside corporations with them ukraine both regarding the mobilization, lo and both of the guys and dissertation and hardships. yesterday, they tried to wide spread the information that there will be of equation from the seats. if you must, is that civilian personal leave the safety and the other target, they tried to reach ease the male population, especially young fonts. so they use take tool they use instead of down for that which was a smoke salem to rebuilding them before. yeah, it must that it's worth discussing though, isn't it alex, i mean, for the ukrainian soldiers who have been on the front line since the start of the

war. many of them are exhausted. they want to have an end date in mind of when they can go home and get on with their lives and make plans. when we look at the new recruits that might be called up under this new conscription law. how useful do you think they will be if they perhaps did not join as easy as quickly as at the start of the war? well, as i've pointed out before, um, there is of cause a problem, a personal problem, right? um so, so do you have um, as i set up some sections on the front line, one to 7, so every recruit as needed and as um, as pointed out before, these soldiers on the front line of costs are getting exhausted so. so this will help. yes, but i know it's, it's sometimes more interesting if these discussions are more controversial, but i have to agree here with, with what you just said before am. and that is that of cause moral is,

is tanking if you're losing the battle off the battle. and also because you don't get the arms that you need right on, on the other side of the russian side process, recruiting a fraud to 1000 soldiers a month and they are just pulling them out of the prison system. basic the it is good for us in society of costs, but the pretend doesn't care about this. um, so i, i think it's a, it's a complicated situation, but again, also, depending on the items that we deliver to ukraine. so let's speak a little bit more about the defense that ukraine needs. of course, a key of was paying attention when we saw iran launched a retaliatory attack on israel. and a ukraine saw a international effort coming together very quickly to down hundreds of drones and missiles and prevent more serious damage from taking place. and also saw that even without this kind of for and health as well as iron dome, air defense system and action. so if you're seeing that response, a president's lensky was very quick to point out that ukraine should also be

afforded, that kind of protection, a ways to be bought. so it's the whole world sees what real defenses should and that it is possible way street footboards and the whole world has seen that israel is not alone in the defense. so, and there's also supported by its allies. so you make it a little green when you cranes 10 minutes, l as image has not turned a blind item. russian metals and drones get it means that they must be accurate. enact forcefully at the day of the scene. julia, does ukraine see it as hypocritical that the west was so quick to come to as well as defense? while it ukraine remains vulnerable to russian attacks? well, the, where the rapids reaction among ukrainian website puny and makers was kind of disciplined manned by the so double standard. it says that they called it then the social networks. because we were said that the not the can not then to her up and

then a conflict of what outside nature. but from the point of view of these relas is also not to nathan member. and of course uh that is kind of disappointment. but i would say you creating and societies know so easy to manipulate with these information. and they were a lot of ways this a saying, let's compare our animals and the, those who are attacking you, putting as principally art, i understand, and that we apply them with the kind of one of the largest. so they're buying the road. and of course, uh, of the police stablish it acted to use here in your menu, for example, or in the west, the, to watch, the russia also playing a better role here. and of course, the, to the, to it factor is that we have in elections and the united states domestic policy is not the plan in craver for ukraine. but still it's

a huge task for our cultural expert at the end of shell diploma. so not to, let's say she gave off and the just to try to can we saw a product notice uh that the, the word is still going on and that is not to, we're not losing that much as sometimes the rest of the right to portray to to the west and the some commitments us to enforce and the a needed to you're quoting and a citizen sent to ukraine engineer to be fulfilled both come what kind of air defense systems would it be best suited to the ukrainian case here and, and what is the best case scenario in which we could see those actually delivered. yeah, so both cases, i mean get around it or probably in the most competitive cause an extra people to speak about iron door. then it will tell you about the needs many are endorsed

because i am going to some of our best, a sub regional protection for a relatively small area. here we have, we have seen them a tech from the wrong 2 of us is wrote this sweet home. that means like, draws less thickness and screws my sons, etc. over a long range. that means stopping in there, got a lot of american troops and the hosting came after going by the iranian side. so this is the big, the biggest difference of, of cost around is lot. i'll get as much, many believe i know get out. and there is a rest of you will need to create a stripes from portland to the us, why germany fonts, etc, the natural states will not be come members or part parties to the contract in ok. however, what can be it up? what brought in as a much bigger territory needs many more al defense systems. and i might

say here that they're just delivered a lot of different systems, maybe not enough to cover their blood color chart, but much more than many other states in particular from the phone to get taught the system to patrick. don't you just law, they live up to a certain model or is going to deliberate and so patented system and to are in the sky next, iris t, s a, and etc, etc. is all that. and i do have often, sometimes at the cost of the on a substance that means of their holdings, me, i'm foster. so one has to be careful on the well, the extra being cited now is the gap. the u. s. has left since uh, november last year because of the locates but after certain and the majority of the public trans bucks very pulse of the day. so that the big a package of $61000000000.00 that should be sent to be able credit unions and equip lot be deliver. this is

a get bigger proteins will not be able to to compensate so quickly because it takes a long time to change the industries of them and the industries and initial production the tetra from piece tablo team to the production. let's get some final thoughts from alex i in just a few words picking up on what both kind of has said, what is the outlook for ukraine and support from its western allies like the us? well, i'm very helpful, although it's not upset that the package will be decided on and will pass on saturday. then you also will be much brighter. and apart from that, i hope that um, you know, the, the glad trust that has been promised to ukraine will just be delivered. and if that's the case, we look into a better future. and if you're watching this, you may already even know whether that has happened or not, depending on what day you are watching. that's all we have time for it. thank you so much to julia, alex and wolf again for their time. and thank you for watching. if you like to show,

let us know in the comments, we'd love to hear from you the, the, the,

into the conflict zone with sim sebastian. as the warning ukraine grind on the neighboring voltage states which anxiously from the ring side seat, pressing the west to increase a scent, kia, and make sure russia dozens with my guess this week is last is 5 minutes to pc. i understand these clear nature as to optics can conflict in 30 minutes on the w to the points, strong opinions, clear positions, international perspectives,

growing frustration with the us as russia rams of aerial assaults. can ukraine hold its eastern front as it struggles under rock at a time? and how can its air defenses be strengthened? join us this week on to the point to the point. in 19 minutes on d w, the try see around everything is connected. mapped out shows that you see the on the board is what makes things the way they are and where all the solutions mapped out, navigating a changing world. now,

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you're watching data we can use live from building the you with v tours full united nations memberships for the palestinians. the usa is an independent palestinian state should be a place through negotiations between israel and the palestinian or farsi not through un action. more than that in the mind that also is coming up jim and police arrest to use to speak to the russian spies accused of planning to sabotage. jem and military support for you, cried the leading summons. the russian ambassador and germany's vice chancellor. hold.