and those leaders are seeking to expand cooperation with putting, looking to boost defense ties, as he continues is more new credit. you're watching dw news of the extra gather documentary for you looking at how large sections of symbolic way society or dependent on money from family members. thanks for watching the the coming 0 sent excels 3 trans people. stories out for me, i did say she didn't know flu napartine. let's say you went to here which kind items are feed us complex doors to have 5 each kind mean each tried supplies which is pulses sometimes. so the silver chips know because i trust because there's only 4 to check the cooking shows, 3 generations. one,

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really see the world as he's never seen it before. the dr. no to dw talking entry. yes, we want to talk about the power of democracy. so we have the 4 administer, and elaina babel here, and i want to introduce the other 2 pedal is. so 1st up we have maria rissa. she is an award winning journalist, nobel peace prize. laurie. it's 2021. she's the ceo and the co founder of rattler, which is the digital only use organization based in the philippines, also an author very and a to have you here with us maria risk. so welcome to the go with the

and then you said, why should we only invite one award winning journalist when we can have to? and that is why we decided to ask colton school view and not come yet to join us. here she is the co founder and the ceo of her story. you're going to also here to give us her perspective from that part of the world. wilton house, the right to the power of democracy. that is our topic of this year. germany celebrated 75 years of democracy. i'm in a bred bed. well, i want to put the 1st question to you. how would you analyze the state of democracy in this country? it was, 1st of all, for me, democracy is never finished because democracy is about life and life is never finished. we always value it even more. and this is good. so a growing up every day is just normally she went behavior and this also comes from

you for democracies. we can get better every day. and if we look at our democracy, for example, in we have to say 75 years west than germany. then also the eastern part and we will you and if we kate it. so you can see already, you know, a history that our constitution. what then also changed the after view and if the case made us stronger afterwards. but if we look, for example, as women rights in our constitution, or i to go 3, every body has the same ride, starting with gen, uh and then being also brought in to other groups of society where today, like my kids would say, well this is just normally because they, they grew up in this kind of society, but becker 50. yes, it was normal, not normal. so you can see that democracy grow every day. but we also see obviously that democracy didn't for from the sky. but we have to protect it and that all the rights which we achieved in the past that could be

a backlash. and if we are looking at them at the gen the question of, for example, that also in the european union, something which i would say is just normal is being challenged in these times that we'd honestly exactly what you mean by that. or what, for example, when we say was example of a gender, we had a very gender inclusive language and all your union text. and suddenly there's an issue with that with regard to the question of gender, we should use the female and made a connotation in english. there's a bit difficult or even if you don't decide to on your agenda, if we put a mock up there that everybody can choose their own identity by themselves. even though we have a legal regulation on that by now, it is challenged in some discussions to say no, and we see obviously that there's a backlist if we look to the united states and the right of abortion on the other hand. so i think that also many, many things,

and i'm focusing on european union on the, on us because i would like to underline that even in the so called strong and all democracies, we cannot take our rights, which i would say grant from others have achieved for my to integration as granted, and this is what we have to defend them every day. so you're saying it's a work in progress. and of course, on paper all of the 3 of you live in democracies, but i want to turn to you, maria. now because your country, the phillip, you've had some very rough years under it. president george, you go to tear to really he made headlines across the world. his fight against the war on drugs where we saw extra judicial killings you personally and rattler we're attacked. so where do you stand now? we now have a new president for the past 3 years. you've had a new president's. yeah. fascinating stuff. or i would say we were in hell. and now we're in purgatory. a bit of improvement. but, well, my,

my worry is that the world is heading to health right. as early, even before the nobel lecturer in 2021 i was, we were looking at the data and it points to 2024 as a tipping point year. this is a critical year for democracy. see, and what you had spoken about minutes to bare bach. i mean if you look at it, we've on my twitter feed, i hate to send you to x, but at least we're all there. you will see a gendered massage, any gender, this information that we report that we've done in brazil, another one in moldova. and you will see all around the world that women journalist that was in 2022 a report by unesco. and i see of j 300 page report, and there are several women journalists who are in that book of who are pounded online. if you are a woman in 2017, in the philippines, you were attacked at least 10 times more than men. the number of attacks i was getting was not 90 hate messages per day. it was 90,

hate messages per hour per hour. right. so that is meant to pound due to silence and what we are seeing across the board of i will say, alexander, the sled, this fight with the you where the digital services act, i think for our digital rights a part of the reason women are under attack is because the design of the social media platforms allow it. in fact, when you have a leader like rodrigo detector, or donald trump, they give everyone permission to do it. and the stereotypes are there so you can roll back very quickly. the last thing is we are juror over herself. a said the women, politicians, you've been under attack. hillary clinton in the united states was ground 0 for this in 2016 layla lima, senator in the philippines not only was torn apart online, where it was sexually explicit photos dr. even before generative

a i but she spent almost 7 years in prison. so to answer your question, because you should, you should speak, i purgatory hoping for for better. but in order to come here today, i still have to ask permission to travel from the supreme court all the way up. i could still go to jail for up to 7 years, and my company can still get shut down for 8 years. these attacks have continued and to expect your journalist to continue working despite that, well, we do it any way, but there's something wrong. there must be laws against this, and i will go back to when we lost our gate keeping power, it's to big tech, big techs business model. surveillance for profit enabled not only attacks against journalists or get attacks against women, but in their own report. facebook meta now called meta gendered

well genocide in me and more like online violence is real world violence and we journalist know this 1st hand well, you have given us lots of good just a lot to on past. i want to bring them into the conversation now because you are from you've done that. you've had president. your a was 74 almost for 40 years. he's been in power. he's an auto crap. so tell us about how the pillars of democracy has been shaken in your country. thank you very much. um. first of all, there is a lot of them. so sheep in uganda. the media is not free to function as it is expected. just few weeks ago, one of the news because the observer was solved with someone's by the media console for simply writing a story that portrayed the gun on parliament as m p's west was bribed

allegedly, with 2 medium sealants to silence is such an debate. and so the media console some on the observer that to you of painting the image of the national assembly. this is all the kind of done these we want to see good enough. the observer didn't turn up the entry up to these someone's to because they told them you don't have the monday to someone us do, we will meet in court. so that's just an example of the kind of thing. so sure if we face of this. 6 not only come from the routing party or the government on the state of purchase, but also the different 42 parties in uganda. just recently we had a female journalist, beaten by one of the opposition party to cool party. the body goods for simply recording scenes that they never wanted to be recorded on when we came up to unveil

kid full press, freedom for free, press the tongued against each personality that raised the voices. so the number of proof, i've done this social media cones that are deployed to go puzzle to goal bodies, show me to simply tone you down at so it's a pulling us to, to choose how we come into such a tux up into the media. right? so we're seeing attacks on a personal level, we're seeing attacks on an institutional level. it's a newspaper, which is actually one of the leading newspapers in uganda. the observer is being summoned. so let's check solutions. let's talk about how you individually and your organizations deal with that. i don't even available going to ask you because maria said that you, of course, have also had massive hate speech written against you. how do you deal with that on a personal level. you're also just a human a,

as was 1st of all it's so important to connect and this sounds so simple, but i mean the target is to single out people and to make them feel that they are the only person feeling, this kind of situation. and now becoming a foreign minister and it was like in my election campaign running, he has a chancellor, we could see that there was like so much more fake news and especially what maria russell talked about not only fake news on different topics, but fake news as a woman and back then i thought, well, this is just a weird coincidence and even some people told me was don't talk about it. but for example, there was like the fake news that i was a prostitute. and i thought, well this is just crazy. just ignore it, but then i went to the philippines. the 3 years later we spoke. and the senator

who used to be addressed as minnesota, was with us in the discussion. and i wasn't sure whether i should cry or laugh because what she told me, i felt, oh my god, this is what i've experienced things got on a lower level, but that it was targeted on the just the former justice minister there because she couldn't be drawn out of the political debate by real hot court topic and suddenly there was a 6 full dimension with regard of who what marie inches that was talked about and coming back now to my own experience. and then back in time, in the election campaign saying that i was a part of start, it was done really badly. so everybody who could see a so okay, this is not true, but suddenly like half a year ago. and so being media, it was in a public tv debate, there was a picture again. so i picked the thing, well, wasn't to you a point a stop back in time and you think,

oh my god. so obviously it's no so interested in. but this association, what we see, what so many women can also speak about when we hear the narrative from poaching on ukraine. i mean it's a question about raping a country. so obviously there's a whole dimension of 6 to lising issue uh just sit and um there there's so many to do with that then like present because i believe that that will also serve as an example. if we talk about, we need more inclusion, we need women to be part of society, part of these democratic processes. they are being silenced in this way. so do you have solutions for this? well, this is one of the reasons why we formulated a feminist form policy in the foreign ministers because if women are not safe in the society, no one is safe. and this is something a woman told me before the, for invasion in ukraine, where i met at the former so called contact line between the eastern territories of ukraine. and uh, did you find

a main level of the on the west part of ukraine and this understanding that if women are coming under a tech a whole, as society is going to college, this is what we have seen. what you describe, we saw it in russia also back in time, they change the law on domestic violence and then they just changed other laws. then they addressed the if the media speeches. so the yardstick of women wives in societies, in my point of view, is a crucial one. and this is why we have to speak up as foreign ministers as was the feminist. foreign policy, as john live is people, as business men. when we see women rights are coming on the pressure that this is the danger for hold society on a positive front. i mention what we can also see if we include women, for example, and peace negotiations. peace freed these last longer, so it has altered this positive dimension and asking you questions of what you're doing. this is why what i said to feminist form policy is for me,

a very important part for protecting societies, but also to ensuring that democracies are resilient code from your publication. your online, this organization is called her story. uganda. why was it important then specifically to tell her story, was that not being done and you've done the last 10 years before establishing cost tory we've 2 colleagues, i solved in it. but vehicle society in news rooms that's never prioritize women voices and stories about women. but this is a fennel man on i've seen across africa and so many other regions of the world. let me give an example of the presidency of joyce bunda in 2012 to 2014. this was the 2nd of con, female president. that was able to accelerate the economy of my low. we from

$1.00 to around 4.8 percent. look at how for somebody else who has pushed tons any of um, let's watch out for mexico. claudia has one on the election of the minister here, was talking about how feminine is focused foreign policy. i want us to reflect on how much we have as the media, how much, how we paid attention to these distinguished women, lead us acosta. what. and so that informs why we do the what we do. the media doesn't mainly focus on the successes and holding. we mentally those accountable. they prefer taking the studio teepee, coal role, the letting women down, but yet they kind of cheve on they have achieved up. so that is why we do what we

do. so if you think them to kind of like that, we have maria, how vital is that for the building of our democracies when women are under attack, women in the public eye, that's the 1st step to the degradation of a democracy. and you've seen this in, in information operations, right. so, i mean, look at the, in the model, the report you will see a tax against the model of us president. my yes son do. you will see madeline albright all the way back 7 or 8 years ago. and there's a group, she formed hash tag, not the cost. women are always a tasked 1st, actually women and journalist right were the 1st front line. and so if you're a women journalist, you gotta get ready for this stuff. and, and the kinds of things that, that they've described it's,

it's sexualization in most of our countries press to, to india. you know, this one right? because i think it traveled from the united, tell us what india press to, to. so women journalists are prostitutes, press the tooth, it's a whole denigration, and then the kind of sexual ization, and then the other part it moves into the human ization. and that'd be. so how can we reverse that trend very easily? you keep working right? absolutely. usually part you put a feminist, i mean on our case it was really by looking at the data. and that's, i think one of the things that, you know, in the earlier panels, i would say social media is at best the front of me. because the data has been weaponized, each of us on facebook alone, for example, every one of us on facebook has more than $2200.00 data points, separate data points that they do not actually have permission from us to take,

right. but they put them together, they create a model, they say model, let's call it a clone. big phone us, and then our, the special intelligence comes in and takes all of our clones. that becomes the mother lode database that is used for micro targeting. mike were targeting is not advertising. micro targeting is selling your weak gets moment to a, to a message to a company or a country russian. this information chinese, this information, in my case, it was this information, information operations by my own government, right. let me just move to the dehumanization because of that part is scary. that the human is ation. if you are under attack, whether you are a man or woman and it moves to dehumanization, in my case, it was taking male gen adults and then putting my face on top of it. in the case of someone like patricia compass mello from brazil,

i saw at some of the folks from brazil. it was taking her face and putting it on again, dehumanizing animal parts in malta, destiny carolina, deletes here the, the human ization, the t went through was right before she was assassinated. journalist, a journalist in malta, who went after corruption. okay, so what do we do? but trisha accomplice mellow, filed a case against both scenario father and son. and one case she won, so that case is still ongoing, but i think we need laws in place. the impunity of the tech companies are as bad as the impunity that we are seeing from put in for example. right. i thought twice about what i would suggest it's not just put then it is also nothing. yeah. who sorry.

because i think what's at stake here is the, the, the inter does the international rules based order still work. and that's something we're all counting on. we wanted to work. so how do we fight back? we organize ourselves. we realize that we can't, we, we need to demand better from tech. that's the 1st step. the 2nd one is this journalist. why are we all not working together? why are we not collaborating to demand better from tech? right? this is now the distribution. and finally, i always talk about the you, the european union has a, has won the race of the turtles in terms of the digital services act. and the digital markets act and the act which will go into place until next year. so what do we do in the meantime?

it's just us. why would the writers guild association in america sooner generative ai goes out? why are they able to act? and we journalist, do not. but let me bring it back to you, gone to even us. we're all just kind of talking to each other now. the them in sweden as of this year, january this year said that 71 percent of the world is now under authoritarian rule . it is slipping. but our window to act while closing is still there. this is why we must act. all right, so you re, i want to go to the minister 1st. we're talking about the laws. you mentioned the digital services act. so that forces digital companies pick companies to take down hate speech and his speech that has been reported to be violent and these kinds of things to be taken off as quickly as possible. you said that is a good step, but it was a slow when you said that you want regulation of

a i why is that not happening? just because in a democracy you see always needs majorities a and this is i think, which we should always remember. also also, when we say very easily, there's obviously the metal uh, between a tacos, he's in democracies, but there are moments where one might think democracy slow up and then people might feel ok. maybe this is a constitutional form which is not so helpful in crisis. so this is why the reason is in these times of crisis we even have to work harder and stronger to gether. and we have to be frank. we missed it in the last uh, used to work together, especially with between the european union and the united states. we're obviously, the, the big companies, tech companies are based a, they are it to organize or to regulate these kind of services. and i think it was

a strong asset of the european union then to say, okay, we don't wait any longer, but we have to take it in own hands because otherwise we cannot come to it. but we are at the starting point. they are because we see this fake news going on. so they also different debates in my country. but ulta, for example, in ireland, if um they are seeing like, immediate, deep faith. and i mean, we all know if it's like after 4 weeks been some how it's being um, articulated as fake or has been taken down then it's way too late. yeah, it has spread already over and you cannot counter it anymore. so it's not about regulation only. it's also how can we real quick and for example, in ireland, they are having the debate and i'm mentioning it here because we're starting this the bid ulta in germany to set up a board because obviously again, in the democracy. yeah, you cannot say ok,

it's government who decides this is fake or this was the big or this is the truth. so you have to find bodies and the others set up a diff, some parties of justice and journalist, and also a part of government to say, okay, we can just quickly and say this is under a checking. so at the moment, maybe we're not clear yet, but obviously there's something wrong. and i think this is we have to think about regulation, but also about being a being very pragmatic on this issue. and we have to discuss openly and i have to come back to your small sentence and also where we might see things differently because not everything is said, but it's a different bubbles or what you see. and when you set the uprooting in it and you know, obviously i see it differently to put it not in the same sentence, but again, it's about sharing information's uh, in our realities because so what is right and wrong looking at the middle east, for example, i've been there also many, many times, but if you cannot go to gaza,

if there's no free reporting anymore, if john this of being killed for me, it's very hard. even though i'm discussing with each rarely government to say also in self defense, you have an obligation on the humanitarian law to say this has been a work for me or not because i've not been there. i cannot judge it on the place. so i think therefore, also for us here, it's so important to discuss openly where we might say, okay, maybe we look at a prospector from a different angle and we respect that. you see it from the other side because i think the other danger is that everybody just pulled spec in their own bubble only speaks to people who see it exactly like like i'm seeing it. and i always have this picture for kids in schools. if we have sitting like this, i have a 6. yeah. and you have for 9, i can tell you 100 times, this is the 6. but if i'm capable of saying ok, i change my perspective, i take her seat, then i can see that from her perspective, it might be also

a 9. and this is, i think what it's all about to always keep the human face and the human diamonds. thank you and just for our audience, we have a panel tomorrow morning about how to cover the conflicts in the middle east because i see that we were going in that direction. now i want to just bring back a call to into the conversation because during one of the panels early a one panelist from mozambique said that social media has ushered in the another wave of democratization. especially in southern africa, is that something that you're seeing, especially in the country where the traditional media is being censored by those in power of. i agree to some extent social media is given a platform to the companies that us and said to carry on that walk. it is also a platform that so many seats and use to hold lead is accountable. and so to

some extent, it is being put to good use, but we must also not ignore the fact that the so many accounts that to both accounts under the the time deployed to spread fake news propaganda. this information um, in my country, if you months ago the you fell victim to this information. somebody looked at the document and put it on the social media. the you have funded some people to carry on some walk. i'm so it took them, of course they responded to the talk, but that shows how much this information come effect even such organizations a so if with tech companies like maria said, do not react. actually for me,

i would like to see these to companies to incorporate all the local languages because much of the focus is on english, portuguese, french, and of a major major countries. i mean major languages. we also have other local languages that are widely for it. and they have quite a large subscription. so if i can use this information is spread in a local along which the tech companies didn't incorporate. it's hard to count a such so much as we use such platforms, social media to see that we democratize. ready bypass them such cheap? yes, we also have to consider these. and of course we are looking for solutions to allow democracies to be more inclusive and to have diverse voices heard. maria, you want to add to that? yes. so i will give you a solution because we pulled it up to a high level thing. but 1st of all,

you have to understand that there is and i will use the title of an upcoming book by a former you member of parliament or rich. the shock, right? he has a book coming out. it's called the tech cool. every day the legislation doesn't happen for whatever reason. the tech cool continues, because your cup of coffee has more regulations in place to get to you. then this, then, these platforms that we carry everywhere with us, right? so the insidious manipulation, not just the algorithms, not just of artificial intelligence, but now when you have generative a i where you, you can create, i've had several deep fakes done for me now, which sound like me, look like me, but isn't me. we can create an atlanta bear bock now, right? and you will not be able to tell the difference. so you will not be able to tell fact from fiction. there's a phrase that was coined by cory, dr. well, he said,

what will happen now is we're going to get so much crap showed thrown at us, that it's called the end should the vacation of the internet, and we will be forced out. so what do we do? right? so, number one, this is something that dmitri morocco and i, along with about 300 nobel laureates, civil society groups of different groups. and, and frankly, germany has been at the forefront of a lot of this right. alexandra geese again i, i keep saying because we champion, it is not about content, it's about data. it's about algorithms. it is not about freedom of speech or censorship. so please take that away. number one, very contrary to what we have been hearing all morning and would that's the problem . yes. but of course again diverse voices and different perspectives. i had the evidence that as i yeah, and i will tweeted afterwards, right,

this is about data and tech. it is not about content be just lays right this. um, so we came up with a 10 point action plan and in 2022 and these are the high level things that really every law should include the 1st stop surveillance for profit, right? surveillance capitalism was a new business model, and these tech companies have optimized for profit at the cost of every single citizen that is on their platform. want to stop coded by yes. and what do i mean by that? the tech that has come in to us, especially in the global south, means that if you are l g b, p, q plus. if you're a woman, if you're brown or black or marginalized in the real world, you are further marginalized online. that's 23 journalism.

as an antidote to tyranny, who would journalist will stand up to a dictator and ask the tough questions in the most polite of ways. right. and yet, if you're a digital new site, because of actions by big tech, you may die, our websites may die within a year. and i can, i will tweet that again. read the future of new. so those are 3 things, right? we have to move at the pace of tech, but the world does not have to accept it. it is the least regulated industry globally. and yet, it hacks our biology by manipulating our emotions to change the way we feel, heightening the spread of hate. why are we so polarized? that's also a tech driven thing. and then when that happens, because you change the way you feel you're angry, you're afraid,

you're hateful. you act in the real world. and that moves into politics. again, that's a direct link. if we do not have integrity of facts, we will not have integrity of elections. thank you very much. i saw you nodding. that is something you are right so, so sorry, just to jump in. i am not what you said. minister bare bach. i completely agree with you in terms and i'm so sorry if i've offended anyone because apparently on social media you offend everybody when you speak. hi. because for some reason i am now both a c i a agent and a communist. i'm both anti semitic and i also and ty palestinian, you cannot be both, all those things. they're all lies. so yes, i agree. yeah. and i know that uh, because of if we cannot talk about effects anymore, obviously everybody constructs its own reality. and then we do not have

a common denominator, and this is the end, they're totally agree of democracy. and this is why fighting for facts and so working on it is so important and maybe also moving from out of geo political topics like the climate crises. yeah. why could we find a way as a world community by now to do something about it? because it wasn't challenged any more. the climate crisis has not read it, but these were the debates, like even 10 years ago in other countries around the world, especially in a, in the global cells. i mean, people didn't have to have the doctor, they just felt it's that obviously when you grew up cotton 50 years ago, and you cannot do it anymore because of those toilets, no, totally torn upon that they are effects of climate crisis. but we've seen it before, so also giving a positive dimension on it. this is we can do it again. yeah. even though it gets more tricky, but those extras world wide have to join forces who belief in fact,

who believe in the rule of law. and also that we agree. i who believe that human have the same rights all over the plan. it's and then we might disagree on some politics, but joining forces on the crucial part, i think this is the most important in these times. and this is also where the internet gives the opportunity to, into connect with. she's out there. but at the moment, we are seeing more and more that those are connecting worldwide old. so via digitalization would like to destroy the roots based order. and this is why we have to stand up altogether for those who are fighting for it. thank you very much. so collaboration, very important, i'm going to give the final word called, what kind of a mindset do we as journalists have to have, especially for people that live in autocratic receives so that they have the courage and the power to stand up against those who are this is

a pressing there people or actually trampling on human rights. we have the paula to change the narrative. um, i know we've been discussing about take on all of that and i remember facebook is bonding. uganda sees 2021. but we have the power to use whatever is with the you know, means to change the narrative, to change the way women are contributing to democracy on how we connie's by the next generation of lead us. so let us use whatever we have if this platform is bund, use the alternative. nope. quite a number of them. so let us diversify, but also have to really keep us old, strong. and yeah, keep pushing. thank you very much. we're gonna have to end it at this point. i know, maria, you have a love to see about how to get off the grid, you know, like create the own network. because you also heard that youtube,

my just shut down any moment. and then where do we go with the content? so that will be a discussion for another day. thank you so much for him and as the book. thank you maria rissa, cellphone. thank you. a call from sylvia not com. yeah, that was a great discussion. thank you. for your time and thank you to my wonderful audience, [000:00:00;00] the

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