the young people clearly have the solutions. the future belongs to you. this 77 percent. every weekend on the w, the nato is celebrating its 75th anniversary in the shadow of unprecedented challenges. just as alliance leaders were gathering, russia bombarded a pediatric hospital inches of killing and wounding dozens of children and profiting ukraine's president to renew his please. for additional fair defense systems, whether such support will be forthcoming. even if donald trump for to return to the white house, is just one of the doubts worrying nato members. the alliance is bigger than ever. but does that make it stronger or potentially more divided? can 32 members states maintain that united front against my professors?

our question today, nato, at 75 more allies, less unity, the hello and welcome to to the point. it is a great pleasure to reach our guests. mike has quite leads the department of defense economics at the military academy of this with federal institute of technology. great to have you with us. raphael us is a policy fellow at the european council on foreign relations is work focuses on security and defense in the euro lab, tech area, and christy wright. she joins us from washington. she is a member of the governing council of the german council on foreign relations, formerly led the prestigious young stone in the foreign policy institute,

and is now with the international center for defense security. great to have you with us, christy, as well. and marcus, if i may begin with you, uh, that attack that we just saw in, in the pictures its uh, prompted an outcry, of course, amongst the alliance members. it also prompted denial from russian president vladimir pushing. the question is whether the newest pledges of air defense support for ukraine, whether ukraine can really count on that going forward. the same thing is that this has become the new normal russian ball crimes happen every day. and this is just a very strong example of what happens every day. so would you crane really needs is defense because it has to little systems at this time to defend both the front and the cities. so i think it's of the rights in step in the right direction. um to,

to allocate more patriot systems to prevent these types of all kinds from happening again. can you cry and be sure it's going to get them know? well, i think the pictures were pretty harsh. i'm pretty memorable of what russia is capable of. and the dresser has absolutely no scruples to, to act against international humanitarian law. so what, what other option is there? it's rough as i'm mentioned, rush, it denied responsibility for the attack on the children's hospital. how possible is it that this was not intentional? and is it possible that russia even timed this attack to coincide with the beginning of the nato summit? i think there's sufficient evidence now as that was another case of russian war crimes, including going back to girls need to a level and to the full scale invasion since february 2022 that that this was a russian attack and that it was targeted and timed to deliver a specific message on the line that nato is somewhat impotent. um, uh, but uh,

if you look at russian convocation and then on the once i do have the lines of denials. on the other hand, you have celebrations of this new very atrocious attack. you know that the russian mission to the united nations in new york recently tearing the security council put chicken key if on the, on the menu um to celebrate the most recent meeting off the console of the suspicious standard russian practice and it, christy, you wrote this week as the leaders were down to ring in washington on x, that ukraine is absolutely critically important to europe and security. are nato and europe doing enough to ensure that ukraine doesn't succumb to the russian attacks? or does that approach that they're taking so far add up to too little, too late. the nato and the, the allies are currently doing enough for your trying to be able to,

to defend itself and prevent of any major further advances of russia. but as we are seeing, they are not doing enough to enable you're trying to win the war and the band not doing enough to secure sufficient a protection off of the opinion civilians. so the limits about the allies are think on the assistance. have you such a good costs the quizzes. i talked to somebody, so i think we saw a number of practical steps that are positive for you, brian. uh, some further promises of assistance, assurances of the long term commitment of nate to think nice. so he's very clearly dying its own credibility and it's oh, sure to the face of ukraine in this war. but still, i would say we are talking about cost steps and we are going to take

a look at some of those measures. uh that were agreed on and at nato unity as a whole, with 2 new nordic members, the alliance is now bigger than ever before stretching from the atlantic ocean to the baltic sea. but does that also mean it's stronger? opening the summit, us president joe biden insisted that the allies are united, but that unity could be short lived if donald trump wins the upcoming us election. 90000 soldiers, nate who wants to demonstrate that strength with the largest maneuver since the end of the cold war, a response to the russian invasion of ukraine. the us remains the cornerstone of nature with a total of $1350000.00 troops. it provides more than 40 percent of all native falls that it also acts as a major financial backed up, investing more in defense than all of the allies combined. this year it's expected

that 9 of $32.00 nato countries won't even meet the target 2 percent g d p contribution, including spain and belgium. this highlights how different the allied members to see if the threats of food should highland leads with the contribution of move in full percent and the baltic states also investing heavily into the nature of budgets. the alliances team is crucial for the protection of the eastern flank, money western personnel. according to the latest estimates, the current thirty's to nature states will spend a total of around $1.00 trillion yours on defense this year. a record amounts, but is this a know how strong is nature's defense? how great is it the parent potential? let me pass that question straight over to rafael. how great is the potential of nato to really ward off the kind of aggression that we did just see natal has

become larger. it's not one of the lines of 32 with sweet and joining audio those here. it's also becoming stronger and the decisions that the heads of state and government took at washington are moving in the right direction, i think. but the requirements also increasing significantly in some respects. and that requires the continued move forward to meet the demands that the domain specific regional, specific defense plans. unlike anything we've seen since the end of the cold war being translated into forces, capabilities, infrastructure and stop pulse and, and that's where the rubber hits the road. you say it's stronger, but the fact is, as we heard from christie, is that what the alliance is doing now? are the members of the lines in a to itself is not a party to that conflict. is what, what's being done right now is not enough to ensure that you can and would when this war would you say to europe, and they don't have been too intimidated by putting threats that there are

essentially a central approach is basically too little too late to some extent i would agree with you there. um, again, natal is a, is a consensus organization, a nato didn't organize ukraine support for the longest time. it's only moving in that direction so far it depended on the leadership of the united states. and to a large extent, also on the leadership of, of germany. some other countries have been moving foster, including most prominently the baltic states portland, and delivering certain capabilities to ukraine. france and the united kingdom have provided long wind strike a, which is to a crane. and we're seeing restrictions being lifted more and more for the was on russian territory to target russian military capabilities and infrastructure there . but i agree that that we're moving to sal and not at the scope that's required. and christy the, the report ended with the question, is it enough to deter russia and the question would be, in your own case, you come from the baltics is this current approach enough to deter

a russian attack on poland and the baltic? republics. many people say they're at the top of put in some list. if you created this, this, this where would you agree? it is. so work in progress and what is important distress us the our prime minister going to college did yesterday. any attack against one? i like is an attack against me, so as a whole, uh now we have the new defense plans which are approved to last year. so somebody in the us and there is work going on with the implementation of these plans. and in that regard, the current to somebody or is of course, discussing ways to ensure that there are sufficient to capabilities the manpower arms to actually make these plans credible and implemented fully. so it is possible later can do it. but as we see,

the issue of increasing defense spending a strengthening dollar defense, industrial capacity, it is a difficult one politically and it is moving ahead slowly. and at the same time, we are speculating about how quickly and to what extent a russia is able to reconstitute to it's mandatory. so that to it might actually of in future be capable of challenging one of the allies. let me pick up on a couple of those points, starting with the question of some countries spending more than others markets. in fact, many of the countries in the alliance do now meet the 2 percent target, but some are significantly over and a few are also still behind is donald trump, trump actually right when he says that there should be penalties for the laggards. while he was in 2016 because we then we had 5 countries out of the uh,

the 29 members that match that 2 percent go spending of the gross domestic product . so things have become better since them. but i, i do stress time, and again, the pledging money is not equivalent to military capability. and that's what has to be produced for the future. and that means i'm doing 30 years of appeasement and doing 30 years of europe and policy that sold. oh, well, russia will eventually move into a freedom and democracy direction that can be a common ground with russia. there can be no such thing. russia has become an imperialist state again, and it will try to extend its influence into western europe. and all we can do right now is to the, to that imperialism just speaking of laggards. let me ask you how you see germany. the chancellor of germany made a historic speech right after the russian invasion of ukraine, promising that germany would finally punch. how did he cannot make weight when it

comes to defense and security? but has germany truly delivered or is this biggest economy in europe? still a laggard? well, i must say germany has done a lot for ukraine in terms of support in terms of the delivery of weapon systems. but if you look at it, and in terms of the gross domestic product, the other states that have done much more, including the very small baltic states. so i would say there's a difference between, again pledging money and putting military capability on the ground. and i think that is what ultimately john and policy has to be evaluated against will they deliver on military capability and not just the money. and that's, that's, it relates to both supporting ukraine and rebuilding the bonus. and raphael, let me ask you about a few of the things that donald trump has had to say. i mentioned his remarks about the laggards. he actually went on to say that he would tell russia to do whatever it wants with those that don't pay up. do you think it's just lester,

or would you say it's quite possible that he will deliver on that threat? look, i think donald trump is a very erratic personality. it's the deep on certainty. that's the problem. we've had some reports from people around time that as a agenda sort of forming and has circles in his orbit um to shift the burden of defending the euro atlantic area to europeans. that's something that europeans are becoming increasingly aware of. they are aware that the, you need to play a big, a role that they need to european nice nato and many ways ultimately do s, as is irreplaceable, as the political and military debt and the alliance. but that's the things that your opinions can do more off and can do better. and i think the summit communicate shows a path towards moving in the right direction. and now as macros, clubs said it's about implementing those decisions and, and that's where, again, the rubber hits the road, putting springs on the table. christy that plan that raphael just referred to, is sometimes called the nato door meant plan. it's

a plan of one of the think tanks that's been advising. donald trump, that essentially says us wouldn't have to leave nato altogether or to enforce an ice invitation to stats. it could simply recall that your american commander of the forces in europe or possibly stopped contributing to nato's budget. how much tension did you pick up at the summit, on the sidelines of the meeting in regard to a possible radical shift in the us will. should trump be elected? it is impossible to predict what the potential of done by the ministration will actually do a regarding to make to of course a, this is being discussed. but i can also say there is a degree of difference between the debates. we are having in the east implant

countries ending ukraine in comparison to the western european countries thinking the implant countries. um, the emphasis is more on the need to maintain a strong transatlantic link no matter what, no matter what would be the next president. and this is what we are preparing to do . also the noted countries are placing a very strong this is not one strengthening of not only the contributions in nature, but also the bi lateral ties to the us. because we see that he's not capable alone of replacing the contribution of the us anytime soon. and also what is the more emphasized in very simply countries and especially ukraine? is this dissatisfaction with what's made so has done thus far? of course, a lot has been done since february 2022, but we kind of say that we are,

for he fully satisfied and confident that to me is always doing enough. so the fact that to trump is pressing for your up to do even more. does have a such a positive impact here. marcus christa had mentioned earlier on defense industrial policy in europe. in fact, the last e u commission did take some measures to try to reinvigorate the defense industry in europe. but basically are they just baby steps? speaking of 30 years of policy failure, we, we once all believed in the illusion that the war was over, it pro or, oh yes, that it probably was never over. but the thing is there are no more physical capabilities in europe, and they have to be recreated right now. and that, that concerns both the production of, of all my vehicles. but especially if i'm a new, some of calls about the rate i'm an ocean in particular, and that has to be rebuilt. and for the time being um, people are trying to to get ammo from no matter where south korea from bucket stone,

from any country that's still produced on and at the same time trying to, to reinvigorate their own production of facilities. and i think that is changing right now, but of course it will take a number of years until that industry is at the level where it can really out produce russia really quite briefly, if you would, because i do want to talk about the longer term future but russia has put its entire economy on a war footing. does that mean that it can stay in the war against ukraine indefinitely? well, when you speak about the entire economy of russian, we still have to think about that. that corresponds to approximately the economy of the netherlands and belgium combined. and nato's complete military capabilities about 15 times in convention times what, what russia has. so we and in europe who are often prone to the illusion of, of an old 90 russia that cannot produce at all it's, it's not that simple. but of course, russia has never demilitarized to such an extreme extent that europe has. and it's,

it's about rebuilding that capability. let's look to, at the future of a 75 year old alliance. that faces not only unpredictable conflicts in ukraine in the middle east, but also with shifting geo political landscape. and a change in leadership, a fine with a new secretary general to be netherlands. mark was a, as the full, i'm a long time prime minister of the netherlands. he's regarded as an experienced foreign policy expert, someone who represents stability and continuity products are very proud, and it is, it also feels like a huge task and big shoes to fill from stilton also wouldn't make any further comments until he takes office, but he doesn't pulse back, he's described the so called russian peace con, as absolutely insane. the dots politician also has a reputation as a trump whisper ref will someone who knows how to obtain the former president at

the munich security conference. this february also said that europeans would have to work with any us president, or in his words, whoever's on the top floor before i became a whole term, might have to serve as a group therapists for the allies in europe. the debates about ukraine's admission to nato will also be a roadblock. since russia has issued a warning that this would cross or red line is nato. ok. so these new challenges and let me ask you to answer that question about the but picking up on one point in particular because amongst the challenges that nato faces is an increasingly powerful china. and in fact, the summit of final communicate is a call out basically of tried his influence including its influence in providing military support to russia. so if we look at the behavior of se hungry, slovakia, turkey,

all of which maintained by the friendly relations with china. would you say that this alliance is up to the task? i mean, the countries that do have frontier relations with, with trying on the political level, there are other countries that have been kind of like dependencies on china. so china is certainly a systemic challenge, as nato has described it in its strategic concept from 2022. the summit communicate has found that which that is more explicit describing the kind of change. but going beyond china ended support for russia in this war, against a crane. that's also talking about iran and north korea. so we're really see consolidation off those excess that that presents a problem to the alliance and that they need to deal with an access that recently has been called the excess of upheaval as opposed to the old term, excess of marcus. the outgoing secretary general just doesn't back, says that the most urgent challenge at the moment is maintaining support for ukraine. and they don't now plants to put that support under

a special command right here in germany, rather than the u. s. lead structure. it has had till now. does that essentially makes the support trump proof for this? well, i would say it's institutionalizing what has already been happening since the russian aggression the putting all the v spot in places and putting the international don't call the nation center in one central command. and i think that's a step in the right direction because it shows long term commitment. i wouldn't say it's necessarily from proof because trump can still do a lot of stupid things. so making a trunk proof is, i think an institutional challenge will nato as a whole. and christy, one of the authority is challenges facing nato, has been what to do about ukraine's membership about making ukraine a member of the alliance. germany. and the us have been quite hesitant to poland and the baltics in favor. the final communique has sort of squared the circle with

a reference to nato's membership. and you and your friends, membership being jo reversible, is that enough? is there's a, again, a little how step a for what's also in this regard understand the expectations where much lower than they were one year ago in the building is when this issue was ok to debate it. now it was clear that this language of the reverse ability is the maximum that can be achieved. and i think it's is also important to stress the as the feelings extra general stoker birth the just the data at this point, it is more important to look at the actions of the alliance. and there are practical things happening with a strengthening the role of nato strengthening the interoperability is between ukraine and a so also the long term commitments of assistance. but there again, we could see that the, the stock number initial proposal to creates

a 100000000000 long term commitment of age a was not successful. so now we have a commitment of $40000000000.00 for the next year. and then from there on just the kind of a bad language about the long term commitment to us. we know the political and searching to make this commitment, the fairly a bit shaky. so marcus, summing up and coming back to our tide, or whether a 75 year old nato is fit for the future, we're looking at us unpredictably ability russian relaunch is a chinese ambition. and also some allies opportunism in the face of all of that. would you say nato is up to the challenge? i would say the point is to look to all around systems and to remember why nato was founded to hold on to the test. so we had expansion in europe and, well, replace soviet with russia and you have the business case again,

i think it's about the turns it's about realizing what shows apple. and i think that is a very good topic for or reflecting of to 75 years. if you're still relevant and if you can still do it, i hope that raphael, it is a very different uh, global geo political constellation. now then it was, then, what do you think is nato up to the demands? i think it is. i think this momentum going in the right direction, needs to be accelerated. it needs to be expanded in scope, but let's me to get in 5 years for the 80 as an advisory. and then we can take a look at the rear view mirror. and christy just one sentence, you've talked about a lot of half steps on the part of nato. do they add up to the whole a whole or not? but it's a question for the future and make this, such as the does have the resources to move ahead and to take care of its tasks of collective defense of the question is also thoughts, political results where i think good. the 2nd half is philip. it's me think thank

you very much to all of you for being with us and thanks to our viewers, look at our youtube channel. tell us what you say the,

the, the conference during this week. our 1st interview with the survey is randy minutes. so god, the wolf again raising key questions on his government protected human rights in his prison. and us accusations just to come to this informing god indiscriminately . i try to please, i ask for a 5 minute stuff that he wants to do to join anti war protests. conflict in 30 minutes on the w to the point. strong opinions,

clear position. international perspective. nato is celebrating its 75th anniversary and the shadow of unprecedented challenges with 32 members. it is the biggest, it's ever been. but is it also stronger? find out on to the court to the point in 19 minutes on d, w, the d. w. travel all over the side. 3. food gone is with inside a tips. nicole. hi, nice. well, let's go here we go lower. so when it comes to sustainability information i'm trying to do that. when you travel, you can have it all the text in it. okay. it has to check the bags,

so you're planning a trip to make sure you miss nothing about is on the w travel. i hope you enjoy the trip. here's a just i just thought about you. what's your opinion? feel free to write your thoughts and the comments growing up in a refugee there's a tell us doing an exhibit known. we don't expect much living with them anymore. this is not a good environment, not for me, and not for my children. without civil rights. and with no prospect. but what can we do? carry on and some last day, a nice the nice get there. housing for america in baby shuttle stops august 3rd on d w. the

. this is dw news life from berlin, joe biden, under pressure before a key appearance on the world stage. the u. s. president. this hosting leaders at a nato summit in washington since june to gave a news conference in front of the global media under intense scrutiny over his age . and house will be bringing use that live as soon as that happens. also coming up the u. s. is to station long range cruise missile out here in germany. berlin and washington cited deployment demonstrates their commitment to nato and defending europe. russia.