they are peers and rivals, which is one daring goals to help smart nature, the more likes watching it. on youtube dw documentary, the nato is celebrating its 75th anniversary in the shadow of unprecedented challenges. just as alliance leaders were gathering, russia bombarded a pediatric hospital in chief of killing and wounding thousands of children and profiting ukraine's president to renew his please. for additional fair defense systems, whether such support will be forthcoming. even if donald trump for to return to the white house, is just one of the doubts worrying nato members. the alliance is bigger than ever. but does that make it stronger or potentially more divided? can 32 members states maintain that united front against oppressors?

are question today, nato, at 75 more allies, less unity, the hello and welcome to to the point. it is a great pleasure to reach our guests. mike has quite leads the department of defense economics at the military academy of this with federal institute of technology. great to have you with us. raphael us is a policy fellow at the european council on foreign relations is work focuses on security and defense in the euro lab, tech area, and christy wright. she joins us from washington. she is a member of the governing council of the german council on foreign relations, formerly led the prestigious young stone in the foreign policy institute,

and is now with the international center for defense security. great to have you with us, christy, as well. and marcus, if i may, uh, begin with you. uh, that attack that we just uh, saw in, in the pictures its uh, prompted an outcry, of course, amongst the alliance members. it also prompted denial from russian president vladimir pushing. the question is whether the newest pledges of air defense support for ukraine, whether ukraine can really count on that going forward. the same thing is that this has become the new normal rushing volt crimes happen every day. and this is just a very strong example of what happens every day. so would you crane really needs is defense because it has to little systems at this time to defend both the front and the cities. so i think it's of the rights in step in the right direction. um to,

to allocate more patriot systems to prevent these types of war crimes from happening again. can ukraine, be sure it's going to get them know? well, i think the pictures were pretty harsh. i'm pretty memorable of what russia is capable of, and the dresser has absolutely no scruples to, to act against international humanitarian law. so what, what other option is there? it's rough, as i'm mentioned, rush, it denied responsibility for the attack on the children's hospital. how plausible is it that this was not intentional? and is it possible that russia even timed this attack to coincide with the beginning of the nato summit? i think there's sufficient evidence now as that was another case of russian war crimes, including going back to girls need to a level and to the full scale invasion since february 2022 that that this was a russian attack and that it was targeted and timed to deliver a specific message on the line that nato is somewhat impotent. um, uh, but uh,

if you look at russian convocation and then on the once i do have the lines of denials. on the other hand, you have celebrations of this new very atrocious attack. you know that the russian mission to the united nations in new york recently tearing the security council put chicken key if on the, on the menu um to celebrate the most recent meeting off the console of the suspicious standard russian practice. and it christie, you wrote this week as the leaders were down to ring in washington on x, that ukraine is absolutely critically important to europe and security. are nato and europe doing enough to ensure that ukraine doesn't succumb to the russian attacks? or does that approach that they're taking so far add up to too little, too late. the nato and the allies are currently doing enough for your trying to be able to,

to defend itself and prevent any major further advances of russia. but as we are seeing, they are not doing enough to enable you're trying to win the war and they're not doing enough to secure sufficient a protection off of the print in skill. yes. so the limits about the allies are think on the assistance or have you patrick, good costs to classes. i talked to somebody, so i think we saw a number of practical steps that are positive for you print some further pharmacies of assistance. assurances of the long term commitments of nate. so think nice. so he's very clearly tying it so i'm trying to get it to you and it's, oh sure the to the fights of the training this war. but still, i would say we are talking about positives and we are going to take a look at some of those measures that were agreed on and at nato unity as

a whole with to new nor to come. members, the alliance is now bigger than ever before. stretching from the atlantic ocean to the baltic sea, but does that also mean it's stronger? opening the summit, us president joe biden insisted that the allies are united, but that unity could be short lived if donald trump. when's the upcoming us election? $90000.00 soldiers. nate, who wants to demonstrate that strength with the largest maneuver since the end of the cold war, a response to the russian invasion of ukraine. the us remains the cornerstone of nature with a total of $1350000.00 troops. it provides more than 40 percent of all native faucets. it also acts as a age of financial backed up, investing more in defense than all of the allies combined this year. it's expected

that 9 of 30 to nature countries weren't even meet the target 2 percent g d p contribution, including spain and belgium. this highlights how different the allied members to see if the threats of food should highland leads with the contribution of move in full percent and the baltic states. so also investing heavily into the nature of budgets. the alliance's team is crucial for the protection of the eastern flank, money, weapons personnel. according to the latest estimates, the current 30 to nature states will spend a total of around $1.00 trillion yours on defense this year, a record amounts, but is this enough? how strong is nature's defense? how great is it to turn to potential? let me pass that question straight over to you. rafael. how great is the potential of nato to really ward off the kind of aggression that we did just see?

natal has become larger. it's now another lines of $32.00 with sweet and joining already of us here. um, it's also becoming stronger and the decisions that the heads of state and government took at washington are moving in the right direction, i think. but the requirements also increasing significantly in some respects, and that requires the continued move forward to meet the demands that the domain specific regional specific defense plans. unlike anything we've seen since the end of the cold war being translated into forces, capabilities, infrastructure and stop pulse and, and that's where the rubber hits the road. you say it's stronger, but the fact is, as we heard from christie, is that what the alliance is doing now? are the members of the lines in a to itself is not a party to that conflict. is what, what's being done right now is not enough to ensure that you can what, when this war would you say to europe, and they don't have been too intimidated by putting those threats. but there are

essentially a central approach is basically too little, too late. to some extent, i would agree with you there. again, nato is a, is a consensus organization. and they to didn't organize ukraine support for the longest time. it's only moving in that direction so far. it depended on the leadership of the united states and to a large extent also on the leadership of, of germany. some other countries happened moving foster, including most prominently the baltic states portland, and delivering certain capabilities to ukraine. france and the united kingdom have provided long winds, dry capabilities to a crane, and we're seeing restrictions being lifted more and more for the was on russian territory to target. russian military capability is an infrastructure there, but i agree that that we're moving to sal and not at the scope that's required. and christy the, the report ended with the question, is it enough to deter russia and the question would be, in your own case, you come from the baltics is this current approach enough to deter

a russian attack on poland and the baltic? republics. many people say they're at the top of poor teens list. if you created this as this, where would you agree? it is. so work in progress and what is important distress us the our prime minister going to college did yesterday. any attack against one i like is an attack against me. so as a whole, uh now we have the new defense plans which are approved to last year. so somebody in the us and there is work going on with the implementation of these plans. and in that regard, the current to summit is of course, discussing ways to ensure that there are sufficient to capabilities the manpower arms to actually make these plans credible and implemented fully. so it is possible later can do it. but as we see,

the issue of increasing defense spending a strengthening dollar defense, industrial capacity, it is a difficult one politically and it is moving ahead slowly. and at the same time, we are speculating about how quickly and to what extent a russia is able to reconstitute to it's mandatory. so that to it might actually of in future be capable of challenging one of the allies. let me pick up on a couple of those points, starting with the question of some countries spending more than others markets. in fact, many of the countries in the alliance do now meet the 2 percent target, but some are significantly over and a few are also still behind is donald trump, trump actually right when he says that there should be penalties for the laggards. while he was in 2016 because we then we had 5 countries out of the uh,

the 29 members that match that 2 percent go spending of the gross domestic product . so things have become better since them. but i, i do stress time, and again, the pledging money is not equivalent to military capability. and that's what has to be produced for the future. and that means i'm doing 30 years of appeasement and doing 30 years of europe and policy that sold. oh, well, russia will eventually move into a freedom and democracy direction that can be a common ground with russia. there can be no such thing. russia has become an imperialist state again, and it will try to extend its influence into western europe. and all we can do right now is to the, to that imperialism just speaking of laggards. let me ask you how you see germany. the chancellor of germany made a historic speech right after the russian invasion of ukraine, promising that germany would finally punch. how did he cannot make weight when it

comes to defense and security? but has germany truly delivered or is this biggest economy in europe? still a laggard? well, i must say germany has done a lot for ukraine in terms of support in terms of the delivery of weapon systems. but if you look at it, and in terms of the gross domestic product, the other states that have done much more, including the very small baltic states. so i would say there's a difference between, again pledging money and putting military capability on the ground. and i think that is what ultimately john and policy has to be evaluated against will they deliver on military capability and not just the money. and that's, that's, it relates to both supporting ukraine and rebuilding the buttons. and raphael, let me ask you about a few of the things that donald trump has had to say. i mentioned his remarks about the laggards. he actually went on to say that he would tell russia to do whatever it wants with those that don't pay up. do you think it's just lester,

or would you say it's quite possible that he will deliver on that threat? look, i think donald trump is a very erratic personality. it's the deep on certainty. that's the problem. we've had some reports from people around time that as a agenda sort of forming and has circles in his orbit um to shift the burden of defending the euro atlantic area to europeans. that's something that europeans are becoming increasingly aware of. they are aware that the, you need to play a big, a role that they need to european nice nato and many ways ultimately do s, as is irreplaceable, as the political and military debt and the alliance. but that's the things that your opinions can do more off and can do better. and i think the summit communicate shows a path towards moving in the right direction. and now as macros, clubs said it's about implementing those decisions and, and that's where, again, the rubber hits the road, put things, things on the table. christy that plan that raphael just referred to, is sometimes called the nato door meant plan. it's

a plan of one of the think tanks that's been advising. donald trump, that essentially says us wouldn't have to leave nato altogether or to enforce an ice invitation to stats. it could simply recall that you're american commander of the forces in europe or possibly stopped contributing to nato's budget. how much tension did you pick up at the summit, on the sidelines of the meeting in regard to a possible radical shift in the us will. should trump be elected? it is impossible to predict what the potential of done by the ministration will actually do a regarding to make to of course a, this is being discussed. but i can also say there is a degree of difference between the debates. we are having in the east implant

countries ending ukraine in comparison to the western european countries thinking the implant countries. um, the emphasis is more on the need to maintain a strong transatlantic link no matter what, no matter what would be the next to president. and this is what we are preparing to do. also the noted countries are placing a very strong this is not one strengthening of not only the contributions in nature, but also the bi lateral ties to the us. because we see that he's not capable alone of replacing the contribution of the us any time soon. and also what is the more emphasized in very simply countries and especially ukraine? is this dissatisfaction with what's made so has done thus far? of course, a lot has been done since february 2022, but we kind of say that we are,

for he fully satisfied and confident that the major was doing enough. so the fact that to trump is pressing for your up to do even more does have a such a positive impact here. marcus christa had mentioned earlier on defense industrial policy in europe. in fact, the last e u commission did take some measures to try to reinvigorate the defense industry in europe. but basically, are they just baby steps? well, speaking of 30 years of policy failure, we, we once all believed in the illusion that the war was over. it pro or oh yes, that it probably was never over. but the thing is, um, there are no ma, physical capabilities in europe, and they have to be recreated right now. and that, that concerns both the production of, of all my vehicles. uh, but especially of um, an issue of calls about the rate i'm an ocean in particular and that has to be rebuilt. and for the time being um, people are trying to to get ammo from no matter where south korea from bucket stone,

from any country that's still produced on and at the same time trying to, to reinvigorate their own production of facilities. and i think that is changing right now, but of course it will take a number of years until that industry is at the level where it can really out produce russian really quite briefly, if you would, because i do want to talk about the longer term future but russia has put its entire economy on a war footing. does that mean that it can stay in the war against ukraine indefinitely? well, when you speak about the entire economy of russian, we still have to think about that. that corresponds to approximately the economy of the netherlands and belgium combined. and nato's complete military capabilities about 15 times in convention times what, what russia has. so we, and in europe who are often prone to the illusion of, of an old niger, russia that cannot produce at all it's, it's not that simple. but of course, russia has never demilitarized to such an extreme extent that europe has. and it's,

it's about rebuilding that capability. let's look to, at the future of a 75 year old alliance. that faces not only unpredictable conflicts in ukraine in the middle east, but also with shifting geo political landscape. and a change in leadership. a new secretary general to be netherlands. mark was a, as the former, a long time prime minister of the netherlands. he's regarded as an experienced foreign policy expert, someone who represents stability and continuity products are very proud to manage. it also feels like a huge task and big shoes to fill from stilton for hotel would make any further comments until he takes office, but he doesn't pulse back. he's described the so called russian peas con as an absolutely insane. the dumpster politician also has a reputation as a trump whisper ref will someone who knows how to obtain the former president at

the munich security conference. this february also said that your opinions would have to work with any us president or in his words, whoever's on the top floor. before i became a hold her might have just of as a group therapist for the allies in europe. the debates about ukraine's admission to nato will also be a roadblock. since russia has issued a warning that this would cross a red line is nato. ok, so these new challenges and let me ask you to answer that question, raphael, but picking up on one point in particular because amongst the challenges that nato faces is an increasingly powerful china. and in fact, the summit of final communicate is a call out basically of tried his influence including its influence in providing military support to russia. so if we look at the behavior of se hungry, slovakia, turkey, all of which maintain brother friendly relations with china,

would you say that this alliance is up to the task? i mean, the countries that do have frontier relations with, with trying on the political level, there are other countries that have been kind of like dependencies on china. so china is certainly a systemic challenge as nato has described it. and that's for 2 concepts. $12022.00, the summit communicate has found which that is more explicit describing the time of change. but going beyond china ended support for russia in this war against the crime. that's also talking about iran and north korea. so we're really see consolidation oft as ex, as that, that presents a problem to the alliance and that they need to deal with an access that recently has been called the excess of upheaval as opposed to the old term access of here for marcus, the outgoing secretary, general, a young starting back says that the most urgent challenge at the moment is maintaining support for ukraine. and they don't now plans to put that support under

a special command right here in germany, rather than the u. s. lead structure. it has had till now. does that essentially make the support trump proof for this? well, i would say it's institutionalizing what has already been happening since the russian . the question on the putting all the v spot in places and putting the international don't call the nation center in one central command. and i think that's a step in the right direction because it shows long term commitment. i wouldn't say it's necessarily from proof because trump can still do a lot of stupid things. so making a trunk proof is, i think an institutional challenge will nato as a whole. and christy, one of the authority is challenges facing nato, has been what to do about ukraine's membership about making ukraine a member of the alliance. germany. and the us have been quite hesitant to poland and the baltics in favor. the final communique has sort of squared the circle with

a reference to nato's membership to you and ukraine's membership. because being your reversible is that enough, is there's a, again, a little how step a for what's also in this regard. understand the expectations where much lower than they were one year ago in the building is when this issue was ok is debated. now it was clear that this language of the reverse ability is the maximum that can be achieved. and i think it's is also important to stress a, as the inspector general's thought a birthday yesterday. that at this point, it is more important to look at the actions of the alliance and the practical things happening with a strengthening that all of nato strengthening the interoperability is between ukraine and a. so also the long term commitments of assistance. but there again, we could see that the, the stock number of initial proposal to creates

a 100000000000 long term commitment of age a was not successful. so now we have a commitment of $40000000000.00 for the next year. and then from there on just the kind of a bad language about the long term commitment to us. we know the political and searching to make this commitment to fairly a bit shaky. so marcus, summing up and coming back to our tide, or whether a 75 year old nato is fit for the future, we're looking at us unpredictably ability russian relaunch is a chinese ambition. and also some allies opportunism in the face of all of that. would you say nato is up to the challenge? i would say the point is to look to all around systems and to remember why nato was founded to hold on to the test. so we had expansion in europe and, well, replace soviet with russia and you have the business case again,

i think it's about the turns it's about realizing what you of apple and i think that is a very good topic for or reflecting of to 75 years if you're still relevant and if you can still do it, i hope that raphael, it is a very different uh, global geo political constellation. now then it was, then, what do you think is nato up to the demands? i think it is. i think this momentum going in the right direction, needs to be accelerated. it needs to be expanded in scope, but let's me to get in 5 years for the 80 as an advisory. and then we can take a look at the rear view mirror. and christy just one sentence, you've talked about a lot of half steps on the part of nato. do they add up to the whole a whole or not? but it's a question for the future and make this, such as the does have the resources to move ahead and to take care of its task of collective defense of the question is also thoughts, political results where i think good. the 2nd half is philip. it's missing. thank

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you're watching the don't we can use live from the lead you as president, joy bided, makes a series of gaps that the night, toys, somebody in washington. he's facing growing pressure to a band and his re election campaign pot insistence. he is the best qualified person to be donald trump, also coming up on a ledge clause by russia to kill the boss of germany's leadings arms manufacturer. it was stopped earlier this year according to the us media report sign baton has been key and delivering weapons to ukraine. around 60 bodies are found onto the rubble of a neighborhood in the east of gauze.