the present feelings about what's going on in the story. instead of being discussed across the continent, dw, and use africa every friday on the w germany, it is still in shock after the knife attack in the western city of oregon, where 3 people were killed and 8 wounded on a friday night. while families process the grief and hor, questions arise. why is germany subject to these types of attacks? the suspected perpetrator with alleged links to isis came from syria, eluded the german all stories and committed murder. the result heated political debates about the weapon laws, the protections and the site with all this just days before crucial state elections . on to the point we ask after this, oregon night attack to germany, change it's migration policy. the

welcome to this week to the point i'm have you had, i guess it's good to have you with us. let's meet today's guests and jakob. shinla is a terrorism expert and director of the counter extremism project. i mean, the most hobby is a freelance journalist from iraq just returned from reporting in zoning and and martin friday is the deputy editor in chief of pens, easy germany, joining us from the city of zurich called you're welcome. thank you for being with us today. and we have a little bit of a manual today, but we're certainly do our best. i'd like to start with you. i mean, you just got back from the welding and how would you describe the aftermath of this attack in germany? while i saw a city, again, solving a full of anger and also sadness, people asking industry twice and that's happening again in our city so. so some

people are still afraid, especially then they go to the, the, the afraid of the reaction of them. and let's say a city is full of police and full off the investigation. of course of this is one of the bloody attack in the city happened out. and what's what i noticed that some people trying to find and so it's from the responsible petitions . why our law, a strong law, still lots run all. it's still not without a result of preventing that attack. and still, there is a more question, but no answer answer that may come from investigations hands. isis claimed responsibility for this attack. however, terminal for you still have to provide clear evidence. how do you as an expert assess the events involving meaning? the last couple of years we have seen a very concerned campaign by the slimy states to again concentrate on terror

attacks brought including in europe including in germany. it is also true that tarzan only functions if you are in the media and dropped a fireplace ends october last year. media reporting have concentrated on how mazda spa and disease in government. and no one talked about. ice is all kind of so they were under pressure to do something. so if you saw that in a, in most count a couple of months ago, we saw a real series of time at the taylor swift concepts. and again, a couple of weeks ago. and unfortunately, now they were successful also here in germany and sony. let's go over to zurich martin, when we hear all of this, germany has rather than regard it as a safe country so far, do you think that the sense of security is changing? i guess apparently it is, or evidently it is, and many people in germany fear that that the inner safety in germany

is a going down. and you can also see a very huge problem with migration of policy. so if you look at the service of paul's many drums, i'm very concerned about the migration policy of, of the german government. they're not happy with what is happening. there's a lot of illegal migrants flowing into the country. last year we had 350000 asylum seekers that came into the country. and i think this is a very important point to look at. well, certainly built into the aspect of migration. first, we will have a look at what isis is actually doing with the multiple wars and crisis. as we just mentioned, the threat posed by the so called atlantic state has someone faded into the background. however, for security experts, it was always clear, the thread has not disappeared, it was just waiting for the right moment. or the shock runs deep people and zoning in are stunned. he wouldn't give his site the uncertainty as to why this had

to happen. why innocent people had to die. so i'm looking for why weren't the borders where they were allowed to cross properly controls, which quintal yet. memories of the 2016 attack on the berlin christmas market come flooding back. when 13 people were killed by an eye, a supporter, it was the last major attack in germany that i as officially claimed responsibility for. since then, loan is long as motivated perpetrators have carried out numerous other attacks. last march, a terrorist attack on a concert hall in moscow, russia was allegedly carried out by an affiliate. more than a 140 people were killed. the methods of terror have changed. instead of planning an elaborate attack, the suspected perpetrator used to nice and acted alone. chancellor schultz visited the crime scene in slowing in and promised stricter gun laws. that's not a capitalist most, that was terrorism, though it was my terrorism against us,

all which threatens our lives, co existence, the way we met him. but how can an open society protect itself from terrorism? the, as you already mentioned, that the media has focused on other issues and not putting ices in the foreground. however, whoever follows the news has also heard that isis has actually, we can, over the years, is that per section wrong? how powerful is it these days? and how much damage kind of causing your well look, i mean, in 2019 the physical expression of these, let me state the caliph that in see around the rock ended. however, since that time isis has actually d as seen and the massive growth box the also because we are no longer taking care of the problem, the core of word the stairs, to abrasions operate since 2019 significant reductions of military operations in syria and iraq. since 2021,

we collectively withdrew from afghanistan since 2020 feet partially on decisions by the winter and emissions that partially because the military james invest africa asked us to leave no more ability to put pressure on is or i'll kite. i will have incredible amount of fighters money. i can weapons in west africa, so we are no longer fighting terrorism in its core areas and pens. it's not real surprised that of course the tires in fact in our own countries is increasing because i don't if she hasn't changed the strategy is reagan to waste through a continuous stream of terror attacks. and so of course, now they have more operational freedom in the core areas, more concentration, more energy, more if it's all put towards the external attacks, including in europe including germany. and of course, they need operators to do those kinds of attacks or performed in here in germany. for example, here we hear that people mainly young men, become radicalized. what do we know about that process and the 1st place and how it

can be prevented? what we, we notice in the last years that the front line against the stomach state has been shifted to frontier. they took it off to europe more and more through the or the colors ation for the internet to fuel platform of social media. of things like take talk or facebook or 2 o'clock. and as long as we don't have full access control corporation of the tech companies to find a solution and balancing between the, the liberation of the information and the data. and also the protect of the, of the society. if we are not find that point, we are still going to facing that more only. and so delete here or there we will find some back like walls, like to a tech in a, in solving. and it will show us how weak is the security

a people, security, a police and authority here because they are constrained, think on the old method to dealing with that and you developed for it. but terms are also very wary of data protection. do you think they are willing to pay that price? that is the point. i'm not a now calling for, for something to forget all that liberal. a value spots that is a golden middle. we still, we did not find that gold middle between the threats and between also our level of values to protect and that's $12.00. and there is a lot of a drop in the security service has been done or should be done to keep the equipment then with more drops and more capabilities to have stronger

mod mulder troops. to prevent that at least modern. if we take a look at a police figures and crime figures in germany, it's called the attention that foreigners are over represented in those statistics . what do you think that is and why is it often ignored and public discussions as well? yes, a for, and those are under represented in certain prime areas. that's right. and i think it's overlooked because the discussion always is about how do we get these people to their share? probably what not about the problems that arise with migration. i think there's a, there's a certain point in the, in the, in the, in the discussion where we do not talk about these problems probably, but this has to shift. this has to change. i think we have to address these problems more openly. and of course, we also also have to address more openly what comes with the legal migration and huge numbers because business, that's

a problem that the german government sees very clearly. we just have to look at the pulse, like i said before, and there are some election in the federal states on sunday in doing an infection me. and if you look at the numbers, you see the right wing has treatments. parties like the alternative for germany on the rise, because so people fear that with this huge illegal immigration to the country problems will arise. and i think best this has to be addressed. but the majority of immigrants, if i'm allowed to say, the majority of the big guns are se, save people, they are, frankly, they don't want to have that problem. they flipped from that terrible attack in the country, iraq, and see. i think the problem is not that number of the bigger ones and the problems . so how will you can find out the law, how you use it? efficient way to prevent that small minority a taking that's majority. it may grants as

a hostage and talking and then may not as the point that may be the point, but it's not the political discourse that we have been hearing the last few days because some even call it a new german refugee crisis. the fact is, since 2020, the number of refugees in germany has once again been rising sharply and the number of illegal aliens is also increasing as people are longing for europe. despite having nothing, they risk everything. every day people try to flee europe as seen here and say to of the spanish mainland. thousands die every year. for a long time, the eu has tried to stop criminal smugglers and control migration. with little success. last year alone, a member states reported a 20 percent increase and asylum applications. their main destination is germany. a 3rd of all asylum applications are filed here. many municipalities saved throughout their limits and say they cannot accommodate any more people. german border checks

have so far had little success and it is difficult to deport migrants have committed crimes back to their countries of origin, especially to afghanistan or syria, where their safety would be in doubt. tentatively schultz has announced once again that he is more determined than ever to the port criminals. have politicians failed to manage migration. i'll pass that question right on to you. i'm your hospitalizations failed to manage migration. i think um you, you cannot blame the full additions of that and the government now because we're, we're, we're dealing with the problem, the long term. we should look back in the last 1015 years. what has been happened in the wrong way that we still in this position? i think the, the now government try to make a agreement with some governments, for example, in new york, there were a agreement with iraq government to bring all along. a lot of iraqis that i know top right, the subsiding bring that back. but still, this is the moving of that,

a farts or go so slowly in comparison with the numbers of the new mega. and so i think we should look in the, in the bag in the basis of the what we are going to to accept would like to accept the guns in which conditions. there's really no barre. yeah. that would have prevented him from coming back a 2nd time to conduct the attack. so the debate on how we going to apply all laws as far as uh, migration is concerned. i'll be up demise the procedures and make them more effective for extradition of individuals that not supposed to be here is a really important one. in my opinion, the citizens need to see that that government can function and clearly hear something went wrong. and so you need to rectify this, but to say that this is the only meaningful primary instrument that we need now to

make germany safer against international terrorism is simply ignoring how international terrorism works. if this individual had, as many on us have recognizing the internet, the internet is not going to stop with extradition. it's going to continue. we have a permissive environment in the social media for all types of extremism platforms. as i mean, it has that i'm not really helping or cooperating with law enforcement. the french authorities felt compelled to arrest the ceo of telecom a couple of days ago because it's bought from his bottom. let me see if for crime, major cried child pornography as well. as duck dealing and almost eating, so they have to find a new balance and address these issues as well as issues of extradition, procedures, and migration control. but we also need to talk about the ability of the gym security forces to actually monitor what's going on. and here we have moved very

much into the direction of data protection of the last couple of years. so if you have to fight terrorism here, we'll have to me, ready to fight terrorism. that's decision will be made when you withdrew from the international operations. so if you need to understand that site and is more of an tags and guns and rockets, it has to also be a legal basis for the security as far as to act, the technology to do so, and the personnel to operationalize that. however, what we are hearing in the political debates all these days is rather the topic off migration. martin, why do you think there's a focus on that topic specifically, despite the fact that we're just hearing that that may not be the solution? and is that even possible to significant clearly, significantly change asylum laws? for example, here in germany? well, 1st of all, i agree that's, that's one terrorist attack. it's a terrorist really wants to attack some thing that it is hard to,

to prevent all terrorist attack from happening or, or all from adults, from doing criminal things. i think that's right. but i don't, don't think that that changing migration policy is not effective. and if you look at each mounts to be off the opposition party, you propose very strict policies. and the last day is the fact that the germany shall prevent all illegal migrants from entering the country at the borders and effect the conclusion. but the european union should be reached and if it's not re air, you're going to be reach. then you propose that germany has the duty and also the right institute to use that. to declare a state of national, the emergency, and effectively bar and the legal migrant to enter the country. and of course, this is a very hard for both proposition, and i'm not sure if it's uh, it's going to be working within the legal framework of their european union. and also suggests he's just the opposition leader. but i do think that if you look at

the german government, if you look at the ministry of interior s, if i is, are you just, you just don't see a certain efforts to prevent the illegal migrants from entering the country. one example of border controls msc is always hesitated to put in border controls into into place. and when she did in the context of europe and football championship, they were very effective. they, um, the police got hold of smugglers, it prevented criminals from entering the country. it sent a signal to on a threatened stage to poland to the check for public, and they also took care more of the borders when we sent out the signal. but often the european football championship men suffused or didn't want to keep these border controls in place. and i think that the german public ceased as very clearly and just sees alexis effort to year in the german government. and i think this has to change, but why if we do one to prevent these popular movements from becoming more and more

powerful in germany, what is the reason for not wanting to keep those border controls what at least, what's the reason that that the government has stated as well, she said it's about the european framing of, of course, just right. and she also said that the that the economy as being has problems when you put in an effective order control. so nothing happens with the economy. uh, basically all the, all the trucks were able to angel the country, but affectively many illegal insurance and also smugglers were, were effectively uniform entering the country. so it was very effective. so so this, so what nancy things are stated in the beginning was clearly not, not the correct, right. so i do not really know, but i would say that the german government, it's a coalition of the social democratic party. the literal sense of greens do not really want very strict migration policies in place. what they do want is they want

to the realize migration. and you can also see that with the naturalization more what, which was put in place and the end of june, uh when, when, when it's about um, you know, helping my friends to get to this country. they're really quick and putting the policies into place when, when it's about generating people to enter the country, it can take a much longer time. and i think that's a problem. and i think, yeah, it's a problem because the populace movements are on the rise. that's exactly the case of the populace movements of the lights the far right a if the party i'm your have always defended, underscore is that is less prone to accepting migrants into the country. and that has also fledged to the ports, millions of people um, or at least plans uh, have as have arised. do you think the traditional parties in germany can actually offer a solution to this pressing problem against a party that seems to get ahold of that sentiment in the population? unfortunately not, i cannot see

a purple and sort of that politicians and then a writes wings. and i still believe that the, that the democratic parties in germany still have a possibility to the answer of that's, that's problem in the other way, in the way that they pull, pull a run on the, the, the law on the ground. and bought in the same way, also more equipment for the social worker, for the uh, for the mac guns, more control the, the for the internet homepage. and also maybe i come back to the control on the border. i am much monitoring the smugglers on the platforms and like tick tock and so on. and so one of them, they say he want to come to germany, i my guns and talking with the smuggler on take the dog and he tell them to wait

till the championship in for us will finish. it will be easier for you. i mean, they, you know what this is going on on the ground, and this is more of it, this is mean, this is very fun. if you, when you, when you, when you move on the whole, the platform, you will see how weak the low in the germany or, and how they use that holes. the smugglers to come through. i mean, you need more efficient people. people understand how they think that the smugglers or how they think the magnets and how you can find an answer for that. have one more minute left and i'd like to ask you hundreds of some say that in security is a price that a society that wants to be open and liberal has to pay. do you agree with that assessment? of course, there's always a balance between security and freedom. the question is,

what is that balance and do we have found the right balance here in germany at this point, i would argue we have, we have gone far too far into the data protection sphere. here we need to re evaluate that and just to close off the day where the if the makes a proposal that is helpful or even legal has certainly not come yet. so this is not what we should be looking for solutions. and this is a popular, spotty who wants to misuse the situation for their own and action. perhaps martin, i'd like to ask you once more of some say that this is just a shock reaction in germany and that after a few days of debate, everything will turn back to normal. is there a back to normal after this warning and attacks? i'm not sure if, if it is because if you look at the last months there were a tags before the drug. we had this in my mind, we had to put a policeman who was killed by and it's i missed that with a knife. and there have been more and more such attacks and, and i think it's

a very risky move if we just a try to do like everything is on, it's perfectly normal. and i think this, this is, this is a very risky move for the positions to do so. i think there has to be some changes have to be made. there's a lot at stake. we will see of those changes happen to all 3 of you. thank you very much for today's debate to you for watching. remember, you can always watch our shows on youtube, just search for dw news and find to the point i'm probably gonna guess till next time. take care by the

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this is the, the, the news live from by then germany resumes deportations to afghanistan for the 1st time since a toddler bound to be tons of power further and promising to get tough on assignment and security. i had a 2 regional elections this weekend, also on the program. the war in the ukraine top see agenda as a meeting of the you defense ministers in brussels agrees and training an additional $15000.00 ukranian soul just by the end of the year and discuss military support for keith. it says you're trying pushes to be allowed to use us, made long range weapons to hit targets inside investor reports.