best has gotten a lot. what do you think? what's your opinion feel free to leave a comment? the germany is reckoning with the results of regional actions that have left many questioning whether german history is rearing its ugly head. for the 1st time since not simple right wing extremists have won a regional election in germany in the state of the range of the amc or alternative for germany also came in 2nd place in neighboring saxony. the other populace also snapped up the boats by promising to strong the immigration and 2 strong arms deliveries to price. so what does this mean for the future of europe, the largest economy, and it's relation to the world this week on to the point we're looking at the rise

of the far right is germany at a tipping points. the hello, i'm clear. richardson in berlin, a very warm welcome to this makes addition of to the point i'd like to introduce our panel today. we have both kind of miracle warmer professor of political science at symbols university. we have matthew carnage negha politic goes. chief europe correspondence and nadine lender corresponded in deutsch then her dad goes berlin bureau very warm. welcome to you. well, thank you so much for being here. the day, let's start with you. uh, what does the a f, the stand for that was so appealing to voters and these eastern states? well, the of the 11 years old. now most of the voters in germany know what the, if the stands for,

i would say in this election campaign we saw like 2 or 3 main topics. that the a, of the focus us on the main topic. the number one topic is migration. to stop the influx of asylum seekers to germany, to deport people from germany, to the home countries to re migration how they frame this concept. then the 2nd point is to stop the boat in your train by stopping the arms deliveries to ukraine . and i would say the 3rd point is more like a cultural war that they want to would that they see. and they argue against the well, the open display of homosexuality. and also the use of gender neutral language. these old points that, that were important for the f d and this election campaign of the success as do have alarm bells going off in many quarters in germany will stand for the 1st time since the end of world war 2. we're looking here at a party. the german intelligence has designated as right wing extremists in saxony

and surrender winning these regional elections. one of them, the other one performing very well. how much of a taboo would you say has been broken here? that the bill was broken before it was pro can when a if the end of the trim and paul, i'm in the boldest stock with roughly 8 or 12 percent of the votes. this was the 1st time when on writing populous party, i prefer a populace, tried bring populous party because right, a extra missed party. this is something as you have said, which was born out of the terminology of the internal secret service, the intelligence and upheld by a court in germany as well. uh, yeah, but uh no. they only said, you are entitled to call them a ride to being extra mist party. they did not this side on the substantial matter

. there is a difference on it. so i would say the top who is pro can and then the v. it is, and your pin normalization, not a placid normalization, but we have seen this in many, many also countries before writing populace the governing and 15 countries of the european union. and this of germany still is far from a situation where the key would enter the federal government. so to some extent, we hear typical german alarm is sup tones in the discussion, but the development is not very past, no doubt. okay, so you think this is a bit overblown matthew? maybe you can put this into perspective for international yours. those were maybe not closely following german politics and understand how the f d was the previously how a party that that can be called right wing extremist coming into power. really

resonates here or, well, i think it resonates in particular as we saw in these elections in the east of germany, where there's a lot of frustration with the traditional parties with the establishment parties in germany. and in particular with the current government under olaf schultz. and as indeed mentioned migration has been a very central issue. recently in germany, there were some recent killings involving asylum seekers allegedly in, in germany knife attacks. and so this is become a very heated political issue. and the a f d has been very skilled in seizing on the migration issue and also the question of islam in germany, which is very closely related to that in the minds of many people because most of the asylum seekers here have come from the muslim world. and over the past 10 years, yours might remember onto the miracles, famous statement to that, that germany can manage this,

this influx of us asylum seekers in the wake of the syrians civil war in 2015. and since then, the country has brought in about 2000000 people in the f d has over that period gone from the low single digits. now nationally to the, to be high teams. and in some states during and facts. and as we saw, you know, over 30 percent, so their success is very closely tied to this question of migration. and indeed, how does that compare to what we might have seen in the last 10 years in germany and you look at the way that they campaign, the kind of policies that they're putting forward with this have shocked germans of your childhood. i think yes to see a party that is that strong the a of the reached 32.8 percent in touring. yeah. it's on place one, like with a shift distance to that city one place to so what we see here is that them within society, they a lot of people supporting a of d,

and i think there's like one point it really changed in the last 10 years. maybe 10 years ago, did they ever did? is 11 years old now. maybe 10 years ago, maybe even 5 years ago we would have said, well, the ab is only a phenomenon for a short time. when we meet them in the elections, they will like wallace disappear and no we no, no they, she had to stay and they have like a long term strategy to destroy the city with the conservative party she in germany . they say, well, now we force that city into really awkward strange coalitions because this is what's gonna happen and entering and also in the 6th and the that maybe the city will books together. but the communist party of that have art and can i come to them in a moment? nobody knows if this is going to work and they have the says, well, this is a coalition that's not going to work that will lead to a lot of frustration for people voted for the city. so we just wait 5 more years

until 2029, and then we have the majority and then that city was gone. nobody knows this plan is going to work, but this is still a long term strategy behind it. and then you mentioned that just there are these regional actions. they solve the triumph of populist ideas more generally, not just the far right also the far left doing well. and that's something that you can really only read as a result of the rejection of the more traditional parties, including those that are currently in government together at the national level, including the, the, the, took over 30 percent of the vote under the leadership of beer. and hooker, it's the 1st time a party classified by the office for the protection of the constitution as extreme right has one is the election isn't we're number one and 2 and you don't classify it 3rd of touring in voters as right wing extremists who scored points with voters, with his s new nationalist ideology by campaigning against migration and against further aid to ukraine. in saxony, the f

d also receive more of this 30 percent as a vote to become the 2nd strongest party after the city you. by contrast, the parties that form germany's current federal government b, c, d, greens and f t p received fewer votes been in any previous state election. the populist is out of pocket international alliance which splintered off from the left party, one big after securing double digit election results. in berlin, they issued disappears, criticism against the traffic light coalitions ukraine policy to spend a lot tired of being treated like fools. here we keep being told that we can end a war by supplying more and more web infinity parts. to the election results from saxony entered india, one year before the federal elections, harold a different germany to come. so we saw her there as our of august ash, the namesake of this new b. s. w party. i'm both going, as i said they're, they're new on the scene. they really risen to success in these elections as well.

can you tell us a little bit about where they c i to i with the f d on policies like immigration, like the war and ukraine? yeah, but there are some similarities, but i wouldn't over stresses if, if you look to the program of the cyber outbox and connection party, we should call it this way because it's complete. lending is and purse person a list a party. but if he compared with other european parties, the 1st would use would say, it is somehow like the $32.00 additional social democratic party of denmark. if it comes to a distribution, no issue is if it comes to the question of state and market it re, samples a lot, this germans or from democracy, if it comes to migration and they make ration, it's exactly what they propose very successfully in. in denmark,

there's one difference you'll mentioned certainly, and this is foreign policy and especially policies towards natal and the russian aggression against ukraine. and this provoke certainly the term and political establishment. but we should be calm and we should not compare too much with this writing populace to some extent, same be loyal party to democracy. but let's be clear when we're looking at a design and foreign connection alliances view toward the war and ukraine. what exactly is it that they want as they want uh, as they point out, say one to a half negotiations and they have the idea to freeze the conflict. whether there's a good or bad idea. i don't want to try to tier. but the basic argument is long, the war lynch is on,

the more people will be killed then at the end they will be anyway. negotiation. so what they have in mind negotiations now freezing the conflict, hoping that in 102030 years, the situation will be in different one. and so they can negotiate the territory, your losses. they count that they will be territory your losses for uh, ukraine. and they want to end the arms deliveries german arms deliveries to you christmas. well, certainly extra tional point as well. let's come back to integration with you, matthew here, germany, it does have a big demographic problem, doesn't it? there are a lot of old people that are generation generous social programs that need to be supported by the youth. when voters in facts me in the range of vote for the a f d or desire compassion alliance are they voting against their own interests. some people would say, so they've been some interesting remarks in recent days by

a governor of the buddhist bank of the german central bank who's sort of arguing in this direction because germany is facing this, this demographic cliff. but i think on a day to day basis, for many people who are grappling with these problems, one of the issues that many of the refugees who have come are, are not easily put into the open positions in germany, if you will. if you have, for example, a, a teenage ask in refugee who is illiterate and many of them are because they didn't go to school in afghanistan to a train. these people to work in a audi factory or v w factory or to do something like that is, is quite complicated because 1st they have to learn german, for example. so all of these ideas about, you know, being able to just take these refugees and, and to, to fill these, these gaps in the workforce are a little bit more more complicated than and then people think. but the interesting

thing about the 3, india and, and facts and uses that. those are areas that have some of the, the, the, the lowest levels of migration in germany, most of the migrants who have come here are not in east germany there. and other parts of the country, but it is sort of in their heads that these asylum seekers pose a threats to german society, into german, german identities. and nadine, when you look at the f d's platform regarding integration, has this also had an effect on other parties within germany, some of the more centrist or traditional ones as it drags them further towards the right on that issue. yeah, i think there are like domino effects that you can see that like one stone, this tipping and then another stone follows like in a domino a game. i think you, if you look at the positions that this to do is now proposing towards migration, i think you can really see that this to do with a christian democratic conservative party is no trying to be stricter against the

asylum seekers also to restrict the within the set of rules within the you, your opinions union, they want to reject asylum seekers after truman border. and now there's like a car and shoots discussion whether this is possible with an e law or not. and i think to my point of view, it's for the city room for the conservative, it's always a question of how fall do they go on that slippery slope of following the if the to populism. because a lot of political scientists also from, from they say there's like no hughes or they is like no of good for the conservatives to follow the writing radical list. because then the voters won't vote for the conservative state. will always vote for the original for the ready codes. so i thing what is important now is to have a pragmatic solution or reading t to discussion in this country to focus on the points that are possible to reduce

migration. to put an order in the influx of migrants and asylum seekers. and then also focus on the integration of people into society and into workforce. and the, the point is they like to interesting numbers. 60 percent of people entering just say, oh, it's dangerous because we have the so many for in us in this country. but there's only 8 percent of the share of people entering you that's come from foreign countries. so you see, i would say huge in balance between the perception and the real numbers. and the sd is clearly focusing on this and they say asylum seekers are a danger to our security here and they refer to as like a text like and zoning and all right, so that is the pitch to voters. it seems to have resonated the election results, we can say for sure our

a slap in the face for the national government currently that's of course a 3 party coalition led by chancellor all off schultz ahead of those votes in sax me. and through india, there was both high turnout and expectations as i expected, a change in policy that something would change in the country. and the moment that all those arrogant politicians were so sure as themselves might be knocked down a peg or to be cut through the migration migration too many too many too many, too many decide security also a more stable economy. gotcha. step of that. it's going down hill and back up. the german economy is set to slide into a recession this year. economists in particular, believe that voting for this meaningful like a f t could be fatal because there was already a shortage of skilled workers. the technology company in optic entering here is seeing this firsthand showing of the people of to ring here are a creative bunch, but we won't be able to fix it all by ourselves. we also need people from other parts of the world. yo, as i'm kind of a comb,

pretend guide cloud from india is also concerned. it's monica. i actually worry a lot of people told them minds how many of you, my family is also were the reason why read what's in the news. knock system is the once rock solid, germany becoming increasingly unstable, politically and economically. so of all kind of dean has said the ac is here to stay. uh, do you agree with that? because once that says like the iphone, quite surprising coming out of these elections was looking at the use vote, these weren't conservative, older voters voting for the far right. it was in fact, 38 percent of people between the ages of 18 and 24, who turned out to vote for the f d. a. if the is here to stay at least for a couple of years. and i would assume even longer again terminated to not the island of the happy people. it is and european country. and you'll see it in almost

all of these european countries that these right wing populace parties are becoming a quite stable element within all these parties says them. and there is a political space, as we have seen here in the perception of the people. there is a political space on the right wing of the party system to match the previous chancellor of the term in a federal republic. move with the c due to the center of the party system and opened the political space on the right wing. and uh, the right wing populist marched in. so a if the will be here. the 2nd uh, reason will be uh, that migration its a problem which will not be solved during the next years to come. uh,

the political parties have to demonstrate that they are able to solve problems to deliver. and this again opens up political space for an entire system party, at least partially and ties system party. they have the privilege privilege to more not put lies, the wheel or position, and this makes it attractive to many people. so this is your opinion normality. unfortunately, they will stay here because the problems they come pain on the problems will stay last point. the migration, for example, it's are a problem which can be solved by of the federal government into a many alone they need a kind of european solution. and i don't see this your opinions, so the ocean so far. and i think some important context for those watching at home

has been germany's history of dealing with the f d. since it 1st came into the buddhist dog reference since it 1st came onto the scene, really, there's been a so called firewall around them, right? that parties don't want to go into government together with the a f d. that's been something that's been taboo. do you think that that firewall matthew is going to stand now that we've seen such a high turn out at the regional level and should it stand? i think it will stand in, in germany because of the examples that exist around europe in terms of establishment parties going into coalition with the far right populist and it never ends well. and yours can google austria and far right and what we'll see why there's been a few attempts there and there might be a new attempt next month when austria has elections. so i, i don't think there's a very convincing track record that going into coalition. with the far right is, is a path to a political success, continued the austrian case because,

sorry to interrupt. but that's interesting. and perhaps very relevant for the moment. we're in well in austria, but really across that rubicon in the late 1999, when the central right party at the time to austria and people's party decided to go into coalition with the far right with a man named joe tighter who was really the pioneer of modern far right populism and in europe. and he also ran on a very anti migration platform that government prompted the rest of europe. the rest of the european union to impose what they then called diplomatic sanctions on austria's australia was isolated for a short period of time. that didn't really last, but the government also didn't last. it was beset by scandal. and then the, the, the party, the freedom party fell a part some years later, you guys might remember, sebastian could see was also the, the chancellor of austria. these are useful transport, chancellor of austria. he formed the coalition in 2018 with the freedom party again

. and then there was a dramatic implosion of a bad government in, in scan, in a, in a scandal, just a couple of years later. so these parties have not proved to be very, very, very stable and there is a lot of volatility in support for these bar right parties across across here. but they do seem to be your stake. nadine, can you just ignore the will of one 3rd of the electorate in the states of saxony and through india? is that in itself damaging to democracy, to try to, to keep the, a f d out from decision making? well, this is the argument that the a v use us, they say we represent one 3rd of the voters and it's not democratic to, to keep them out. i think these like one point we sort of have a closer look at it's not only that we had the elections, the windows windows ring on 6 and the but we also had votes for the coming over for the city part of mens in june. and what we see now is that the,

the now has vice mayers in several towns in sex on the with the help or against the city. so we have, we see a 2 way process of day of the gaining will influence gaining more power. i think for now it will be possible to keep the a of the out in to ring it and then 6, the name i see i also i think it's right by the also see the representation problem for sure. but i think we shouldn't like give the country to the populace because that would open the floodgates to, to normalizing far right. ideology. i think the process of normalization is already there. if we look at the young world is that we saw in the pictures the f d as know, 11 years old when you're both of maybe 181920. the of did like, naturally belongs to the parties system that you know since your childhood. so i think we have to deal with a lot of different layers and levels and i think we should really focus on the use to kind of prevent them into growing into the, into

a voting for and the longer. now as we said at the beginning, there's a lot of fear around what's happened here. partially because surrender was the place in 1930 where the nazi party had its 1st success. mean only the 2nd largest party and regional elections. and that allowed them into a government wolf con. um, do you think this is history? repeating it self. your health not at all. and this is the wrong comparison. the would really like to advise the renders crime of the nazi regime and we should be more analytical. this is not simply and follow the following up party of the national socialist and tip lab. this does not really keep the point that we don't find for causes for the strings of the right drink, populace funded with only hope with only a few seconds left. matthew, your thoughts? you think some dangerous moments? i don't think it's dangerous. i agree with what is going on that, but you know,

as mark twain said, history history doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes well, we'll leave it there. thank you all so much for your insights today and thank you for watching to the points. let us know what your thoughts in the comments and we hope to see you here next time the,

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