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price of the german book trade, germany's most important code surprised, was awarded at the frankfurt book for last sunday. this year went to american polish publicist and historian and applebaum, eastern europe expert, one of the leading a list of autocratic systems on the comparative intellectual. we met up with a just before the award ceremony in frankfort. the the title of your new book is an auto chrissy, incorporated in english, and in germany, the excess of autocrats. what does that mean in the book describes a network of autocracies, and they are not united by ideology. so nationalist, russia, communist china, fuel credit, ron boulevard, and socialist venezuela,

north korea. these are very different countries with different histories that they've come to collaborate. they do so oppertunity, stickly, sometimes because of financial interest, the english title of the book into that it's a, you know, they are, they operate a little bit like a conglomerate of companies where everybody has their own business model, but they have but they have things in common, so these are all countries where the leaders or the ruling parties operate without any kind of checks and balances without independent judiciary or media without the rule of law. and increasingly they seek to promote that system, their system everywhere else as well. and increasingly they see the democratic world, our world as a problem for them. so they're engaged in aware of ideas. it's both against their own internal critics. but it's also a against us. and the book describes that and explains what disease autocrats have

in common. does it act together the act together opportunistically, when it suits them, when they see a reason to do it? you know, you can see, for example, right now in the war and ukraine, this is the radically, it's a war, you know, russia against you, crane. but on russia side, you now have drones from iran, you have munition from north korea, you know, have soldiers from north korea fighting and ukraine. some were killed in, in, in the past few days. and you have the chinese who supply components and you know, and other resources to russia for that help it's defense industry. so these are, these are countries you don't necessarily have any interest in this war. i mean, there's no historical conflict between north korea and ukraine. but they have a financial interest in being there. you know, the russians are paying them. maybe they're getting technology and exchange. there are some suspicious suspicion that the russians are helping both the north koreans

and the radians with their nuclear programs. the russians may have sold iranian proxies, some weapons that they can use in the middle east. so there's a, you know, they have, they have, they have common interest rather than a common ideological, has the west on the estimated the autocrats. what's ship the west have done differently? what of a mistake? mistake so. so we should have understood a long time ago that trade with the autocratic world is not free of politics. that it's not as if there's a separate economic sphere where, you know, people can just trade and it doesn't have any political or strategic implications. mean as it turned out, for example, the russian gas trade with europe. and especially the construction of pipelines, had a very clear political purpose. the point of building pipelines across the baltic sea was to avoid you crate. and poland probably in preparation for the invasion of

ukraine so. so this was not a decision that had just some, and it was just about money. it was also about politics. and i think we failed to see that. and we failed to see it both. or because we had a belief that there could be that trade was somehow a political and, but also because we didn't want to see it because it would have meant making a different set of decisions that would have cost something. and so i think the, the economic integration of the autocratic and democratic world was taken to lightheartedly, on the spot for supplies. and in some cases, to some aspects of trade with china as well. the war against you crime, begin almost 3 years ago. and there was no end in sight. do you have any idea how this war might? and we are seeing that a diplomatic solution is possible, so the war can only and in one way. so the wars only over when the russians understand that ukraine is an independent country and they cease to want the congress. and i don't know exactly how that will happen or why it can happen for

military reasons. because they, they run out of man which is already beginning to happen or, you know, or, i mean, nation which is also do you need to happen? this is why they need context in north korea and iran and china. and, you know, it can happen for political reasons because of divisions inside russia and discontent and an exhaustion with the war which is we also see evidence of that and, and to the course. and, you know, and there is also, or, or it can also happen for economic reasons because russia's unable to, to support the war effort. and so our policy towards russia should be to keep pushing on all 3 of those in all 3 of those areas. and as, as many areas as possible, we should ada ukrainians, but we should also put as much pressure on, on rush as we can. we have not yet really. we are not yet treating this war as if it's or war we aren't. we don't really understand yet. the significance of what happens if you grand news is and the importance of some kind of, of,

of victory. i mean, remember the ukrainians don't have to occupy moscow. you know, the, i need, the government doesn't have to fall. all that has to happen is that the russians decide your brain is a real country and then we can have it then. then we can have diplomacy. you are the only american, but also polish. you have lived in poland for most of the, from 50 percent of the like, told me for decades and the merits as a polish for when my minister in poland, the populace piss piece party, it was voted out even though it still has the president is so hope for democracy assess assign. the polish election campaign was genuinely a triumph of civic engagement. um, it was the highest turn out in any polish election in since 1989. and a lot of younger people voted younger women, especially voted who never voted before. and one of the motivating arguments was democracy. we need to make sure that the, the, the autocratic populace government,

which was at that time working on capturing the state, taking over state institutions state television. but not only state companies, bureaucracy, a lot of pieces of the state and effectively privatizing never politicizing them for the use of, of one political party. and people said people didn't want that. they wanted to stop. they wanted to return to democratic institutions. they want in poland. to stay inside the european union, because there was also a threat that the politicize ation of the judiciary would have meant poland couldn't be a new member. and, and there was a concerted desire to change it and it happened. and we had it that was also a coalition. there was a central left party, a central right party, and the liberal party work together to change the government. so yes, absolutely. it's possible. there is another one in the middle east, and is there a chance to get some conflict on the control and autocrats put autocrats play a role there too. well,

one of the most important players in the middle east is iran, and iran has proxies who have been acting, you know, in several different ones where there's his bullet or some us, there's the hudy's and others actually who have been seeking to spread, you know, use violence to, to spread chaos for many decades. so. so part part of what that was about is, is that, i mean, it's a, it's a much more complicated war. so the, it is real. you also have a democratic forces inside israel. netanyahu has partners in his coalition, who i would describe is extreme us who have who, who push the war in the, in a much bloody or direction, then it should ever have gone. but, but it's also a war that will, you know, really only ends when there is, you know, when there is an acceptance of everybody's right to exist. and then when, once, once iran except israel's right to exist in israel accepts the rate of the palestinians, do exist, then we have p. so it's

a in that sense. so i suppose you can see apparel. populism is growing with confidence in the power of democracy as s phone and people see threatened by migration by inflation by was by globalization. what kind of wisdom? so 1st of all, all of those things you've just said are issues that are pushed and promoted by the autocratic world. and you know, migration has, is, has, is, is partly of crisis because of the russian more in syria. and also because of the russian war and ukraine, inflation is high also, partly because of the russian war and ukraine and therefore higher, higher oil prices of you know. so there is a connection between people, sense of disappointment and the rise and growth of i'll talk or say as well. so part of your part of re establishing face in our political system and in our institutions is understanding where the challenges are coming from and, and pushing back against them. i mean,

i'm not saying that all the challenges are external because they're certainly not. but that's a, that's an important part of the answer. the elections where we held them to us in a few weeks. are you worried that donald trump could turn america into an auto car seat? donald trump will not turn america into no talk or see, but it's also true that he will not be or he would not be a leader of a democratic coalition. he will not lead the fight against autocracy ink. he will not have see himself as the person who can for example, push back against the world of anonymous companies and offshore investments. one of the arguments on making the book is that a, one of the things that we can to our economy is this shadow, the shadow world of finance that exist alongside the real world. he won't push back against that. he won't see himself as a leader of europe. you know, he will not want to defend europe against russia if it comes to that. so it's, i, i do hope that your opinions are prepared for that possibility and are beginning to

think about what the alternative could be. could you describe how the autocrats worked together and that they're, as democrats, as a western world. what they can do is change the finance system. can you explain that? and so one of the ways in which that has one of one of the systems that has kept on auto, autocrats in power, is their ability to steal and hide money. and they can hide money in caribbean islands, but they can also hide it in through anonymous companies. they can buy property in london or south of france, and they are able to move money around the world secretly and anonymously. sometimes the money in the us, it's thought the some, some of the money turns up in the form of political influence. and whenever you trace whenever, for example, the f, b i, or the department of justice traces or russian influence campaign in the us, there was recently one that was exposed. the russians were paying a group of youtube, hers kind of far, right?

kind of for right media company in tennessee, they were paying them to produce videos. and of course, all the money for that that campaign when via show companies that so there's a, there's an alternative financial system that is very heavily used by the world's dictatorships. and we could stop it, we could, we can put it into it, we could, we could make it impossible to have to, to found an anonymous company or to keep or to hide money anonymously. the, [000:00:00;00] the, the 2nd major difference, visionaries with

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