with explosion in the area i have set off, i have sleep one and this after eas, ralph car, it outs what it called retaliatory strikes across the ground overnight killing 2 soldiers and you are up to date join us from on use the top of the, the you can draw the line between the spacings because i don't believe that space is, is a morally relevant criteria in any more than i believe that rice or sex is on frontier in. 2 2 2 should. 2 2 humans are closer to a chimpanzee vanishing. pansy is even to a dog. the donkey series about our complex relationship with animals watch now on youtube. b, w documentary the,

the base price of the german book trade. germany's most important code surprised was awarded at the frankfurt fund last sunday. this year went to american polish publicist and historian and applebaum, eastern europe experts, one of the leading alice of austic crossing systems and a combination of intellectual. we met up with a, just before the award ceremony in frankfort, the the title of your new book is, or took, receive, incorporated in english and in germany, the excess of autocrats. what does that mean? as the book describes a network of autocracies, and they are not united by ideology, so nationalist, russia, communist china,

fuel credit, ron boulevard, and socialist been as well as north korea. these are very different countries with different histories, but they've come to collaborate, what they do. so oppertunity is typically sometimes because of the financial interest. the english title of the book into that it's a, it's, you know, they are, they operate a little bit like a conglomerate of companies where everybody has their own business model, but they have, but they have things in common. so these are all countries where the leaders or the ruling parties operate without any kind of checks and balances without independent judiciary or media without the rule of law. and increasingly, they seem to promote that system, their system everywhere else as well. and increasingly they see the democratic world, our world as a problem for them. so they're engaged in a war of ideas. it's both against their own internal critics. but it's also a against us. and the book describes that and explains,

what do these autocrats have in common? does it act together or the act together opportunistically when it suits them, when they see a reason to do it? you know, you can see, for example, right now in the warren ukraine, this is, theoretically it's a more, you know, russian again to crane. but on russia side, you now have drones from iran, you have a munition from north korea, you know, have soldiers from north korea fighting and ukraine. some were killed in, in the past few days. and you have the chinese who supply components and you know, and other resources to russia for that help it's defense industry. so these are, these are countries you don't necessarily have any interest in this war. i mean, there's no historical conflict between north korea and ukraine. but they have a financial interest in being there. you know, the russians are paying them. maybe they're getting technology and exchange. there

are some suspicious suspicion that the russians are helping both the north koreans and the radians with their nuclear programs. the russians may have sold iranian proxies, some weapons that they can use in the middle east. so there's a, you know, they have, they have, they have common interest rather than a common ideological, has the west on the estimated the autocrats. what should the west have done differently? what of a mistake? mistake so, so we should have understood a long time ago that trade with the autocratic world is not free of politics. that it's not as if there's a separate economic sphere where, you know, people can just trade and it doesn't have any political or strategic implications. mean as it turned out, for example, the russian gas trade with europe. and especially the construction of pipelines, had a very clear political purpose. the point of building pipelines across the baltic sea was to avoid you crate. and poland probably in preparation for the invasion of

ukraine. um so, so this was not a decision that had just some and it was just about money. it was also about politics. and i think we failed to see the and we failed to see it both. just because we had a belief that there could be this trade with somehow a political and, but also because we didn't want to see it because it would have meant making a different set of decisions that would have cost something. and so i think the, the economic integration of the autocratic and democratic world was taken to light heartedly as for supplies and in some cases to some aspects of trade with china as well. the war against you. crime began almost 3 years ago and there was no end in sight. do you have any idea how this war might and we are seeing that the diplomatic solution is possible, so the war can only and in one way. so the wars only over when the russians understand that ukraine is an independent country and they cease to want the congress. and i don't know exactly how that will happen or why it can happen for

military reasons. because they, they run out of man which is already beginning to happen or, you know, or ammunition, which is also beginning to happen. this is why they need contacts in north korea and iran and china. and, you know, it can happen for political reasons because of divisions inside russia and discontent and an exhaustion with the war, which is we also see evidence of that and evidence of the course. and there is also, or, or it can also happen freakonomics reasons because russia's unable to, to support the war effort. and so our policy towards russia should be to keep pushing on all 3 of those in all 3 of those areas. and as, as many areas as possible, we should ada ukrainians, but we should also put as much pressure on, on rush as we can. we have not yet really. we are not yet treating this war as if it's or war we aren't. we don't really understand yet. the significance of what happens if you crime news is and the importance of some kind of, of, of,

of victory. i mean, remember the ukrainians don't have to occupy moscow. you know, the, i need, the government doesn't have to fall. all that has to happen is that the russians decide ukraine is a real country and then we can have it then. then we can have diplomacy. are you are the only american, but also polish. you have lived in poland for most of the, the 50 percent of the, like a told me for decades and the merits as a polish for when main minister in poland, the populace peace party. it was voted out even though it still has the president is so help for democracy assess assign. the polish election campaign was genuinely a triumph of civic engagement and it was the highest turn out in any polish election in since 1989. and a lot of younger people voted younger women, especially voted who never voted before. and one of the motivating arguments was

democracy. we need to make sure that the, the, the autocratic populace government, which was at that time working on capturing the state, taking over state institutions, state television, but not only state companies, bureaucracy, a lot of pieces of the state and effectively privatizing never politicizing them for the use of, of one political party and people. so people didn't want that. they wanted to stop . they wanted to return to democratic institutions. they want in poland to stay inside the european union, because there was also a threat that the politicize ation of the judiciary would have meant poland couldn't be a new member. and, and there was a concerted desire to change it and it happened and we had it. that was also a coalition. there was a central left party, a center right party and the liberal party worked together to change the government . so yes, absolutely. it's possible there was another one in the middle east and is there a chance to get some conflict under control and, or the court split autocrats play

a role? there 2. well, one of the most important players in the middle east is iran, and iran has proxies who have been acting, you know, in several different ones where there's his bullet or some officers, the hudy's and others actually who have been seeking to spread, you know, use violence to, to spread chaos for many decades. so. so part part of what that was about is, is that, i mean, it's a, it's a much more complicated war so that it is real. you also have a democratic forces inside his real nothing. yeah. who has partners in his coalition, who i would describe is extremes, who have who, who pushed the war in a, in a much ability or direction, then it should ever have gone. but, but it's also a war that will, you know, really only ends when there is, you know, when there is an acceptance of everybody's right to exist. and then when, once, once iran except israel's right to exist and israel accepts the rate of the

palestinians to exist, then we have b. so it's a in that sense. so i suppose you can see apparel populism is growing to with confidence in the power of democracy is as phone and people for you threatened by migration by inflation by was by globalization. what can the west to is that so 1st of all, all of those things you've just said are issues that are pushed and promoted by the autocratic world. and you know, migration has, is, has, is, is partly a crisis because of the russian more in syria. and also because of the russian war . and ukraine. inflation is high also, partly because of the russian war and ukraine and therefore higher, higher oil prices of you know. so there is a connection between people, sense of disappointment and the rise and growth of all talk per se, as well. so part of your part of re establishing face in our political system and in our institutions is understanding where the challenges are coming from and, and pushing back against them. i mean,

i'm not saying that all the challenges are external because they're certainly not. um, but that's a, that's an important part of the answer. elections literally held them to us in a few weeks. are you worried that donald trump could turn america into an auto core? see don from will not turn america into no talk or see, but it's also true that he will not be or he would not be a leader of a democratic coalition. he will not lead the fight against, i'll talk with the ink, he will not have see himself as the person who can for example, push back against the world of anonymous companies and offshore investments. one of the arguments on making the book is that a, one of the things that's weakened our economy is this shadow shadow world of finance that exist alongside the real world. he won't push back against that. he won't see himself as a leader of europe. you know, he will not want to defend europe against russia if it comes to that. so it's, i, i do hope that your opinions are prepared for that possibility and are beginning to

think about what the alternative could be. could you describe how the autocrats worked together and that they're as democrats, as a western world, what they can do is change the finance system. can you explain that? and so one of the ways in which that has one of one of the systems that has kept on auto, autocrats in power, is their ability to steal and hide money. and they can hide money in caribbean islands, but they can also hide it in through anonymous companies. they can buy property in london or south of france, and they are able to move money around the world secretly and anonymously. sometimes the money in the us, it's thought that some, some of the money turns up in the form of political influence. and whenever you trace whenever, for example, the f b i, or the department of justice traces a russian influence campaign in the u. s. there was recently one that was exposed, the russians were paying a group of youtube,

hers kind of far right kind of far right media company in tennessee. they were paying them to produce videos. and of course, all the money for that, that campaign when via show companies that so there's a, there's an alternative financial system that is very heavily used by the world's dictatorships. and we could stop it. we could, we can put an end to it. we could, we could make it impossible to have to, to found an anonymous company or to keep, or to hide money anonymously, the kind of always in signature style

of the size and see with always where you the next on dw, but new will tell you, happy that we are back to the story we have a getting a visa is more difficult than finding gold hosted to use the dream force and for the future in the stories and issues that are being discussed across the country. news africa. in 60 minutes on d. w, the

living shannon dw, how to make greener choices in your everyday lives by tribes. working 32 hours week could be better for the environment, but of course we shouldn't be not e v, the living senate dancing for freedom. how of valor rena campaigns against the oppression of women in iran? a person for the outdoors is the cliche true that german simply loved to be in nature come rain or shine. and in the footsteps of an empress, we built into the history of the iconic sissy and austria's capital vienna. all that and more coming up on your on x the .