to see the world, the subscribe. now to dw documentary the among the many was around the world, the conflict ensued on is distinguished by its level of savagery. the master goes to the ethnic cleansing and the salvation of this for many of its victims. my guest in brussels is former prime minister, bela who heads the coalition, the political and civil society groups trying to bring peace, trying and failing. in the last 3 months, the fighting is intensified and so as the involvement of foreign sciences, something the same is on all sides. what would it take to step the blood shed and unify the shots of the country? i'm the welcome to come pick. so you looking at the history of your country. so

that's amazing thing. you've had since 1956, a staggering 17 cruise, along with a catalogue of civil war, decades of murder, starvation, misery. why have you will failed to bring peace to saddam and unite the country? thank you very much for the opportunity to do how do you appreciate this? you're outside of that light from 1956. we failed, not only to keep the country together, but also we do not have up to the prepared them. and the constitution has always been temporary. out of this 68, the so nation of who post independence, 55 years of them to wait on them either to why why i

suppose we failed to get what i would call and national project. that should have kept this house. i think it's a failure if you remember, what are you ashamed of it? absolutely. so fairly of affiliates. the latest seemingly endless civil war began 2023 between 2 military commanders, one from the suits. and these armed forces general to the fact are behind the leader of the power military rapids support forces. but by general mohammed tiger low, you know, these men personally, don't you? i do. i worked with them in what we call the partnership an agreement that was the sign in

2019 and we worked together in the new now when government for over 2 years until the article, the top of this i think and now they deserve to spend the rest of their life in general. so i believe all those who committed disabilities should be brought to book. what are they like make these are, these are killing some of these are people responsible for the desk? misery, absolutely, starvation, destruction. but they've ruth on that in your country, but that's what are they like? well, you see, this is what we're calling the failure of the also the, the military, which most of the country for 55 years. this is just a continuation of that. are they proud of what they're doing? are they proud of the kidding? i don't think any sensible human being would be proud of killing people,

that they don't sound as the sensible human beings one way to live judgment, of course, to the why that is. so then these people that i should have you on this, not this must have simple what this, what a subject assessments what, what turned them into killers, was it, was it really about an agreement to power sharing power between the different forces because that collapse and they've done set out to kill them, destroys many people. is they could file is uh opposed. oh gosh. so many reasons behind this, this war. as you advise you put it in your opening remark. this will def, i just want to know it is there are so many root causes of this one. that's the beauty to historic and the fact that you put the book into issues of the dynamics between sent and pretty funny and even development. but also political issues linked to the domination of the army and then some of the other facts. but what

would make it stop? what would make this will stop? i think the prime responsibility of stopping disorder, the rest of the disadvantaged people. if we are able to might, in a broad front that bring everybody together again, the store that we form the finishes step in into stopping before. but also we're going to live in an i solution in the, in an isolated island, we need the support that would be brought by that vision and the international community. and what about these 2 generals? what would make them stop killing? i think they need to know the cause sequences for what you would do. have you told them that i think everybody told them this that have sanctions that have all this. yeah. do they enjoy?

and i don't think anybody would he joy killing, but it's, it's, it looks like it's quite assessable, that senseless thing. last month. so the major search and fighting in the country, hundreds killed in aerial, bombings and revenge attacks and evidence that there are increasing numbers of foreign fights as most and who is now involved in the fighting. which countries that are involved, which countries, water you most, you know, and to day as well, the team, you will not find a single village that is isolated from what's happening around the so many countries involved in this region. the close that asian fetish at asian unfair, the fox. well, that's pretty much how many, let's pick a couple of, i mean, the united out, remember,

it's has been pretty active in the region. un inspectors say they've been running an extensive covert operation to supply the rapid support forces under the guise of supplying humanitarian assistance they denied. but, but the u. n. is clear, will do know this, that a similar transition, liberty that gave us all the companies and very you a egypt, so that it'd be uh on russia. i'm very true unless you created this, i'd like these issues and we would like us so that he's like whoever want or whoever, intervening, you know, or situation should help us stop this war rather than feeling well, they're doing the opposite to the mind. we've done all these countries that you've now we would like then to stop this intervention and to move towards

helping us resolving this. and where is the international will to stop them? to be honest with us, with an easy or very disappointed with the international response on our prices today. so done is the lot of the present, the lot of just a human there in classes in the world. well, the killing subject is put more than 150000, which is i think, are grossly underestimated. we might not even know the number of people who are killed. we have 25000000 subjected to 5 minute instead of ition. people would die. we'd find me more than was bullets, but more than 2000000 refugees. the flight of all these people was not being addressed. this is much, much greater. then guys what you can combine and it's about to get worse in june.

the chief prosecutor, the international criminal court, came con, said he feared that didn't suit don. we are on the precipice of something, even worse. do share that view. absolutely, absolutely. you say that, but in april you told an interview or you were in a tunnel optimised. absolutely, oh yeah. how, how long list do you find up to move in the situation that you've just described, where wherever you are so i am that even with that up to me is in the moment that the physics of the museum ceased to exist. 6th period. well yes, of course. as you said, yes, the misery, the killing, the starvation i. i don't see where you find that optimism. some people might say you've lost touch with reality. oh no, i was that i was the day and then all this i have been, i live through this on my life. you see,

i felt them to believe on the fact that crisis come was a possibility. if you allow yourself to just let mint o as bad as at least this is that that doesn't take you anywhere. you will need to have it caged to say that this would not put us down as a nation. what capable of doing creative things, and then you can go on saying this, but as the secretary general of the un, antonio gutierrez said, last month, your people trapped in a nightmare of violence, hunger, disease, and displacement. and you say this optimism? no, i'm not saying i'm not describing the situation that is what you have up to. yes, i am saying you cannot look to face this glasses and if you are just complaining forever, that would not have preferences. seems to be any sense of urgency. no, that is, that is where became doing the same things in the killing goes on. nothing stops

lifting the leslie. 31 thing you know is all this miseries. we give the world 3 very important. i'm glad to find uprising that double dictates the military to get the ship was doubled by this was an easy and 1964. we did it again in 55 and we did it in 2019. so this was then, these people have accumulated, varies from experience or for existence. it's, it's an a 2 minute process and very strongly experience of human rights violation. yeah, yes. yes. and war crimes war chromebook was old. this, this new did not detect us from putting this data in the palm. where did it cost the past? this is the only 3 years ago. the last one. where, where did this extreme level of savage rate come from? why does it come from?

or is it part of your people? is it by that for you? well, actually this is about adults because i said that he's got a lot of video commodities. we are peace loving. we're out of never buying gold as a, as an issue. and you guys have some, a cleansing is now becoming a huge future of is the civil war, isn't it? but you see all this issues are driven by small 900 smoking. and as i mentioned over the why the police, your 1000 profit sucks, everybody's as to whether this is almost my warranty or not. but you see that the entities that the majority of this was and he's a peace loving that needs to get a peaceful coexistence. actually, diversity is essential for students should not be sense of weakness isn't the ethnic cleansing the hardest of the motives to address. because if you're the wrong

type, you died onto rolanda being the prime example of to 1994. the fact romeo, delaware, who left the un mission in atlanta during the genocide, he said last month, we fear the suit on crisis is on the road to becoming a repeat of the 1994 rwanda genocide. i know he said no, i know. i know, but i hope not knew at least the point what we had working tirelessly is to avoid that fit. and i think with the result of the determination of our people so that these people and the support of our friends and peace loving people in the world. we wouldn't be able to avoid this. let's talk about the work you're doing. you, you lead a coalition of democratic forces, cold talk. i do more progress. if you try to organize peace talks, but negotiations have, have gone no way in january. you signed to deal with the rapids support forces

including the cx 5. but it was rejected by sudanese politicians. you're talking to parties that have continually broken the words. and i'm wondering what's the point of talking to people like pat, look the you comp. trust them from one day to the next. can you had the, which is the name of the coordination of civilian democratic forces? is the largest alliance officers and these groups, which has together, brought together political pop. these 3 unions and profession is secret society resistance committees, some of the groups and all that. it's because we had a very impressive funding convention. you know this above, in the end of may, june, this year, which we, we would frontier, let's have them to achieve anything approaching your go, which is piece i, i know what am yeah i, the only thing that is we, we, this, this,

this girl was found in barely 4 months ago. not expected to undo such a huge legacy, but to be put forward. what? a very sound. uh, vision, political vision. but the rest of these to not allow me, i can just quickly outlined the major element of stop these. we do not believe there is a many that is on each end of this course, we have to go through a political process, right? that's all there. isn't that, that kind of thing. i mean, i guess it's obvious, it is obvious, but because a lot of people will think it is not people to think they can win this war, which is totally nonsense. we think number one priority to the in decision is the addressing whom identity crises on to address the protection of civilians as number one prior to this damn dog in august, there were american lead peace talks that kicked off in geneva. but so don's

military didn't even send negotiate as this, so they went no way. you can't even get a cease fire, isn't your priority to get a c spot and then talk when the fight and the guns have gone silent, should will that be the priority? is somebody some risk spiked for? that was why was saying, you know what, the vision number one priority is that and you know, it smelled all the ups in geneva. there were a number of attends before that it was dead which stopped it very well, but that is stalled quickly. then that is my, now my wish was much better produce a very well document shut down by the military. and then that is also which the military is mobile. how can i be a very good document when people go on time? i know it doesn't matter whether it's a good document or not, and also to, unless you produce results and the results on coming down that is total. but to dissolve this cannot draw from there is all just has to be aware of so many cushions of the discussion. you agree on, on the document,

you put it to the test and all that. why don't i think that's what it has to be. so when you go just one of the things you said a moment ago, you talked about over throwing. oh my god bless you. who was present and 15 decades ousted in 2019. he was indicted by the i. c. c. twice on some of the most serious charges, including crimes against humanity. when you were prime minister, you announced september 4th 2021. but the suit of these concert ministers had agreed to extradite a bush year to the hague. why didn't that happen? still hasn't happened? do you uh, equal the date of september 20 twin, twin dakota police to about $21.00? 1 months after one month. but why in that months didn't you send him to the hague? if it's not that simple, we see sue's day when we came we had open,

very fruitful cooperation with icbc. they opened an office, we stopped working. they produce 3 options for the pilots, whether at home on the vision or in the icbc unloading gazing with them. there was a crew, as you said, but in november you were back again. you returned again to the prime minister's office. why didn't you send the ship to the hague? i said, i stayed one months and design. i mean documents. we were trying to put a break on the cool and, and do so many decisions that we're taking in the period of one months when i was in detention. but wouldn't it have been a huge symbolic achievement to sent him to tie it into the office as a prime minister? there was no government, there was no institutions. there wasn't loving i was trying to put a brick on that. and then the to the transition,

meaning bring it back and it's still sions doing all these things that were abolished by the cool the effect of getting rid of it. but she, it was, was extraordinary. the crowds where you fall right around the countries suddenly odd flourish, people were talking about politics. the west was offering to forgive your debts even back. and yet you couldn't hang onto this you for a why not? it didn't last. why? there is one is, you know, the toppling of the dictatorship happen because we only when i had a very strong in united for them at that you have that. but from the 2nd the, we had a lot of you could call it the divisions. people went back by and the flags and all this. and we had this, this is

a legacy of 50. it's but this was your best johnson 30. you looked into it just. it was our best jones. after 50 years, we did a lot in 2 years on the economic front, right. you have so many issues on the political one, on the little bit of so then from the state of a sponsor, terrorism addressing so many issues. you cannot expect a government that is being just supplanted as far as the cabinet to undo into years. legacy effects. yes. this is a don't thing is like somebody to man, you're going to do you wish you had done things different day when you look back. so i leave that to the you have no regrets, no us to a town in the i a my question is very clear because we where and those where a month that hun out of the people to make a mistake. so the chief,

some would know that you have somebody isn't the guy and all this you continue to adjust to that you continue pressing for cease 5 for a formula that will bring an end to all the cottage. but you, you have plenty of enemies, a bureau and sudan. the current government wants to put you on trial on a number of charges, including incitement to war against the state undermining the constitutional order of crimes against humanity. you've denied all these accusations but. ready how can you be seen by all sides as a observer, as a, as a, as an impartial broker. look this when you have these charges. hi, this is misconception. well, i'm not a broker. so i have not mediated reading this because it, i have to tell you a line with the spanish and of a lot of people. so don't think about us as people there. mediating between 2 of us

know we've got that with these charges. how are you this is for what the government go to talking about. there's no government. this is a government suspended, but after communion this you can call it the fact to government because the international community wanted to deal with somebody that there's no government. yeah. for cuz there hasn't been a lot of help in this. you mentioned the we've just suspended what they just suspended, no incorporation with the go the not the suspension and difficult creation. this suspended the membership of the student government because they have an interest to them. and that any unconstitutional deck over for they come up under to kinda suspend this, we've gone from point to one. but they also, when the water broke, they had the stablish, the highlight of his opinion on to them. led by a very able, the waiting list for more, for the new stuff. gonna have a stablish that call me 3 or 5 presidents led by the president. that most of the

neo for uganda, we expect them to do more expect them to help us, particularly with issues related to the protection of significance. underwood and gauging the ones we know that deficiencies and all that. but i think it is our premium content in the body and we are happy to work with them in, in, in, in the dressings, where they haven't had a lot more success than what they've set out to do then you have, i mean, they promise. but the guns would fall silent in africa by 2025. didn't say smoking a happened this at the sound of spanish and goals can be a cheap to have a bias. there's no point. we keep missing these deadline to set the deadline to keep missing. you know, it doesn't help the village, he does. one of the very distinguished, pretty them fight that was in south africa, was asking 1974 when this apartheid would fall. he said in 10 years it went to 20th east side of spanish and goals. we strive, produce them, we might look at each them in this at the time,

but they would come produce them with the results and determination of everybody. a new ideas. you. you need new ideas, don't you? because because everything you've tried so far hasn't worked out things well. what, what do we outlining having to try to have this vision of the paths, protection of civilian ceasefire and political process is that we can use in which we call it round table conference. we should expect to bring together all kind of, uh, from the asian political office and we're working on that. and we are actually moving in diabetics that i do is that it's, you know, to many others who have multi inside. but i do, and i think we are not thinking about this as an event. it's a process which dick time with the course of that is as high sense of urgency because people are dying. but we will appreciate that very briefly. you can't go

back to that at the moment. do you think we have come a day when you can't? are you worried about your safety even being outside? no, of course the talk is all the time about not only that position is that forwarding open lead by killing myself or colleagues and thought i'd do a mindful of that. but i'm not different from what is happening to this with these people inside the company. the thank you very much for being comforted, so the most welcome back to the

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