of shane silence, we need to break out of a. i want to tell you something. how to tell a secret starts november 29th on dw, the among the many was around the world, the conflict ensued on is distinguished by its level of savagery. the master goes to the ethnic cleansing and the salvation is for many of its victims. my guest in brussels is former prime minister, bela who heads the coalition, political and civil society groups trying to bring peace, trying and failing. in the last 3 months for fighting is intensified and so as the involvement of foreign sciences, stroking the same's on all sides, what would it take to step the blood shed and unify the shots of the country? i'm the welcome to come pick. so you looking at the history of your country,

so that's amazing thing. you've had since 1956, a staggering 17 cruise, along with a catalogue of civil war, decades of murder, starvation, misery. why have you will failed to bring peace to suit them and unite the country? thank you very much for the opportunity to do. how do you appreciate this? you're outside of that light. from 1956. we failed. not only to keep the country together, but also we do not have up to to, to compare them. and then the constitution has always been temporary out of this 68 the so nation of who post independence, 55 years of them without them either. why, why,

i suppose we failed to get what i could cool in national project. that should have kept this house. i think a civilian, if you remember, or are you ashamed of it? absolutely. so fairly of affiliates. the latest, seemingly endless civil war began 2023 between 2 military commanders, one from the surgeon. these armed forces general to the fact are behind the leader of the power military rapids support forces. but by general mohammed tiger low, you know, these men personally, don't you? i do. i worked with them in what we call a partnership, an agreement that was the sign in

2019. and we worked together in the new now when government for over 2 years until the article, the top of this, i think now they deserve to spend the rest of their life in general. so i believe all those who committed disabilities should be brought to book. what are they like, like these are, these are killing some of these are people responsible for the desk? misery? absolutely. starvation destruction that they've ruth on that in your country. but that's what are they like? well, you see, this is what we're calling the failure of the also the, the military which most of the country for 55 years. this is just the continuation of that. are they proud of what they're doing? are they proud of the kidding? i don't think any sensible human being would be proud of killing people and they

don't sound this are the sensible human beings, the one we live, the judgment, of course, to the why that is so then these people that i should have you on this, not this must have simple what, because this what a subject defenseless, what, what turned them into killers was it, was it really about an agreement to power sharing power between the different forces because that collapse and they've been set out to kill them, destroys many people. is they could file is uh, opposed that are so many reasons behind this, this war. as you advise, you put it in your opening remark. this will def, i just want to know it is, there are so many root causes of this one. that's the beauty to historic. in fact, uh, did you put the book into issues of the dynamics between center and pretty and even development. but also political issues include the domination of the army and i'm assuming the other facts but what would make it stop?

what would make this will stop, i think the private responsibility of stopping disorder rest with disadvantaged people. if we are able to light in a broad front that bring everybody together again, the store that we form the finishes step in the stopping before. but also we're going to live in an i solution in the, in an isolated island, we need the support that would be brought by the agent and the international community. and what about these 2 generals? what would make them stop killing? i think they need to know the cause sequences for what you would do. have you told them that? i think everybody told them this that have sanctions that have all this you did. i enjoy, and i don't think anybody would see joy killing, but it's, it's,

it looks like it's quite assessable, a senseless thing. last month. so the major search and fighting in the country, hundreds killed in aerial, bombings and revenge attacks and evidence that there are increasing numbers of foreign fights as most and who is now involved in the fighting. which countries that are involved, which countries worry you most, you know in today as well, the team you will not find a single village that is isolated from what's happening around the so many countries involved in this, that asian, the close that asian, that asian unfair to the fox. well, that's pretty close. how many, let's pick a couple of, i mean the united out,

remember it's has been pretty active in the region. un inspectors say they've been running an extensive covert operation to supply the rapid support forces under the guise of supplying humanitarian assistance they denied. but, but the u. m is clear. what do know if this that a similar transition libby, they gave us all the countries in very you a egypt so that it'd be uh on my show. i'm the true unless you're creating this out items issues and we would like us that he's like whoever wants or whoever, intervening in our situation should help us stop this war and feeling well, they're doing the opposite, the amount we've done all these countries that you've and we would like them to stop this intervention and to move towards helping us resolving this. and

where is the international will to stop them? to be honest with us, with an easy way to very disappointed with the international discipline us on our classes today. so done is the lot of their present that a lot of just a human darien clauses in the world. well, the killing subject is put more than $150000.00, which is i think it grossly underestimated. we might not even know the number of people who are killed. we have 25000000 subjected to 5000000. his television, people who died was finding more of them as well. it's more than 2000000 refugees. the flight of all these people as not being addressed. this is much, much greater than does. what do you can combine?

i mean it's about to get was in june, the chief prosecutor, the international criminal court came cons, said he fear that in some time we are on the precipice of something, even worse. do you share that view? absolutely, absolutely. you say that, but in april you told an interview or you were in a tunnel up to miss opposite. oh yeah. how, how long less do you find up to miss in the situation that you've just described? where wherever i am, even with that optimism, the moment that the physical museum ceased to exist, 6th period. well, yes, of course. as you said, yes, the misery, the killing starvation. i don't see where you find that optimism. some people might say you've lost touch with reality. no, no, i was that i was the day and then all this i have been, i live through this on my life. you see,

i felt them to believe on the fact that crisis come was opportunities. if you allow yourself to just let mint o as bad as i believe this is that that doesn't take you into it. you'll need to have the courage to say that this would not put us down as a nation. what capable of doing crit things and then it you, you can go on saying this, but as a secretary general of the un, antonio gutierrez said last month, your people trapped in a nightmare of violence and disease and displacement. and you say there's up to miss? no, i'm not saying i'm not describing the situation as what you have up to me. yes, i am saying you cannot look to face this glasses. and if you are just complaining forever, that would not have preferences seems to be any sense of urgency. no, that is, that is well became doing the same things and the killing goes on. nothing stops

lifting the leslie. 31 thing you know is all this miseries. we give the world 3 very important. i'm glad to find uprising that definitely to get the military to get the ship was doubled by this was that easy? and 1964. we did it again in 55 and we did it in 2019. so this was and these people have accumulated various thrown experience or for existence it's. it's an a 2 minute process. i'm very strong experience of human rights violation. yeah, yes. yes. and war crimes war chromebook, it was old. this, this new did not detect us from putting this data in the palm where did city in the past the past, this is the only 3 years ago. the last one, where, where did this extreme level of savage rate come from? why does it come from?

or is it part of your people? is it part of who you? wow, actually this is about adults because as then he's got a lot of video commodities. we are peace loving. we have never buy an adult as a, as an issue. and you guys asked me cleansing is now becoming a huge future of is the simple wars and it, but you see all these issues are driven by small 900 smoking. and instead of with the why, the police, your 1000 profit sucks everybody, you just wonder whether this is almost my warranty or not. but do you see that the entities that the majority of this was and he's a peace loving that needs to get a peaceful coexistence? actually, diversity is a sense of the students should not be sense of weakness isn't the ethnic cleansing the hardest of the motives to address. because if you're the wrong type, you die,

don't you rewind to being the prime example of to 1994. the fact romeo, delaware, who left the un mission and ran to during the genocide, he said last month, we fear the suit on crisis is on the road to becoming a repeat of the 1994 rwanda genocide. i don't know if you should know. i know, i know, but i hope not new, at least the point what we are working tirelessly is to avoid that fit. and i think with the result of the determination of our people so that these people and the support of our friends and peace loving people in the world. we wouldn't be able to avoid this stroke about the work or do you lead a coalition of democratic forces cold talk. i do more progress. if you try to organize peace talks, but negotiations have have gone no way in january. you signed to deal with the rapid support forces including a c spot,

but it was rejected by sudanese politicians. you're talking to parties that have continually broken the wood. and i'm wondering what's the point of talking to people like pat, look the do you comp trust them from one day to the next can do, which is the cool name of the called the nation of civilian democratic forces is the largest alliance officers and these groups which has together, brought together politic above these 3 unions and profession is secret society resistance committees, some of the groups and all that. it's because we had a very impressive funding convention. you know this above, in the end of may, june, this year, which we, we would frontier, let's have them to achieve anything approaching. you'll go, which is piece i, i know what am yeah i, the only thing that is we, we, this, this,

this rule was found in barely 4 months ago. not expected to undo, such a huge legacy, but to be put forward. a very sound uh, vision, political vision, but the rest of these to not allow me, i can just quickly outline the major element of your stop please. we do not believe there is a many that is on each end of this course, we have to go through a political process, right? that's all there. isn't that, that kind of thing. i mean, i guess it's obvious, it is obvious, but because there are people who think it is not people to think they can win this war, which is totally nonsense. we think number one priority to the in this vision is the addressing who attended clauses on to address the protection of civilians as number one prior to this damn dog in august, there were american let peace talks that kicked off in geneva. but so don's

military didn't even send negotiate as the so they went no way. you can't even get a cease fire, isn't your priority to get a c spot and then talk when the fight and the guns have gone silent, should will that be the priority? is somebody some risk spiked for? that was why was saying, you know what, the vision number one priority is that and you know, it's not the only option in geneva. there was a number of attends before that it was dead which stopped it very well, but that is stalled quickly. then there is my now my wish was much better produced a very well document shut down by the military. and then that is also which the media that is mobile. how can i be a very good document when people go on time? i know it doesn't matter whether it's a good document or not expensive to unless you produce results and the results on coming down that is total. but the result of this come up there all from there is all just has to be aware of so many confusion. so the discussion you agree on,

on the document, you put it to the test and all that. why don't i think that's what it has to be. so when you go just one of the things you said a moment ago, you talked about over throwing. oh, my ibis year, who was present and 15 decades ousted in 2019. he was indicted by the i. c. c. twice on some of the most serious charges, including crimes against humanity. when you were prime minister, you announce september 4th 2021. but the suit of these concert ministers had agreed to extradite a bush year to the hague. why didn't that happen? still hasn't happened? do you equal that? it's september 2020, when the quote is october 21 of one months after one month. but why in that months didn't you send him to the hague? if it's not that simple, we've seen sue's day when we came, we had open,

very fruitful cooperation with icbc. they opened an office, we stopped working. they produce 3 options for the pilots, whether at home, on the vision or in the icbc on wedding gauging with them. there was a cool, as you said, but in november you were back again. you returned again to the prime minister's office. why didn't you send the ship to the hague? i said i stayed one months and design. i mean, the ones we were trying to put the brake when the cool and, and do so many decisions that we have taken in the period of one months when i was in detention. but wouldn't it have been a huge symbolic achievement to sent him to tie it into the office as a prime minister? there was no government, there was no institutions. there wasn't loving i was trying to put a brick on that. and then the to the transition,

meaning bringing back and it's fusions doing all this things that we are abolished by the cool the effect of getting rid of of, but she, it was, was extraordinary. the crowds where you fall right around the countries suddenly odd flourish, people were talking about politics. the west was offering to forgive your debts, even that. and yet you couldn't hang onto this you for a why not? it didn't last. why? that is one is, you know, the toppling of the dictatorship happen because we already, when i had a very strong in united to them at that you have that. but from the 2nd the we had a lot of you could call it the divisions, people went back by and did flags and all of this, and we had this, this is the legacy of 50. it's but this was your best johnson 30. you looked into

it just, it was our best chance. after 50 years, we did a lot in 2 years on the economic front that you have so many issues on the political fun, on the little video. so then from the state of a sponsor, terrorism addressing. so many issues you cannot expect a government that is being just planted as far as the company to undo into years, legacy or fits. yes. this is a don't thing is like somebody to, man, you're going to do you wish you had done things different day when you look back. so i leave that to the you have no regrets. no, i saw a town in the i a my question is, is very clear because we worked and those with a month that hung out of the people to make a mistake. so the chief,

some would know that you have somebody isn't the guy and all this you continue to adjust to that you continue pressing for cease 5 for a formula that will bring an end to all the cottage. but you, you have plenty of enemies of your own. and so done. the kind of government wants to put you on trial on a number of charges, including incitement to war against the state, undermining the constitutional order of crimes against humanity. you've denied all these accusations, but. ready how can you be seen by all sides as a observer, as a, as a, as an impartial broker. look this way you have these charges. hi, this is misconception. well, i'm not a broker. so i have not mediated reading this because it, i have to tell you a line with the spanish and of a lot of people. so don't think about us as people there mediating between to fox.

no, we've got that with these charges. how are you? this is for what the government go to talking about. there's no government. this is a government suspended because of the community this you can call it the fact to government because the international community wanted to deal with somebody that there's no government. yeah for cuz there hasn't been a lot of help in this. you mentioned the we've just suspended what they just suspended, no incorporation with the go the not the suspension and difficult creation. this suspended the membership of the surround government because they have an instrument that any unconstitutional deck over for they come up under to 10. this has been this, we've gone from point one. but they also, when the water broke, they had the established high levels binding onto them led by a very able, the party, at least for more, for the new stuff done. they have established a committee of 5 presidents lead by a president that most of the neo for uganda,

we expect them to do more expect them to help us, particularly with issues relating to the protection of civilians. underwood engaging them on this. we know that deficiencies and all that, but i think it is our premium content in the body and we are happy to work with them in, in, in, in the dressings, where they haven't had a lot more success than what they've set out to do. then you have, i mean, they promise, but the guns would fall silent in africa by 2025. didn't say smoking a happened this at the sound of spanish and goals can be a cheap going. yeah. but if i, if there's no point, we keep missing these deadline to set the deadlines, you keep missing. well, you know, it doesn't help. the ability does one of the very distinguish pretty them fight that was in south africa, was asking 1974 when this apartheid would fall. he said in 10 years, it went to 20th, is out of spanish and goals. we strive, produce them, we might look at each them in the set the time. but the idea would come produce

them with the results and determination of everybody. a new ideas. you. you need new ideas, don't you? because because everything you've tried so far, hasn't worked out things well. what, what do we outlining who haven't tried to have this vision or for the past protection of civilians use fire and political process was that we can use in which we call it around table compounds, which we expect to bring together. all kind of, uh, from the asian political office. i'm working on that. and we are actually moving in diabetics. that i do is that it's, you know, many of us will have most inside. but i do. and i think we are not thinking about this as an event. so process which dick time with the course of that is as high sense of urgency because people are dying. but we will appreciate that very briefly

. you can't go back to that at the moment. do you think we have come a day when you can't? are you worried about your safety even being outside? no, of course the talk is all the time about not only that position is that forwarding open lead by a feeling myself or colleagues and thought i'd do a mindful of that. but i'm not different from what is happening to this with these people inside the company. the thank you very much for being comforted so that most welcome back to the

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to our law. seeking justice for the victims of fame. assign starts november 21st on d, w. the this is due to the news live from berlin. germany's governing coalition collapses, transfer the old off, shall sax finance minister across you on linda and says he wants to call a confidence vote for january. also coming up earlier today, i spoke with president a like something, congratulated him on his victory. i also told him that we will help him and his team with their transition and that we will engage in a piece full transfer of power. vice president, complet harris speaks, the supporters after conceding the election to donald trump.