and we're stuck in test shane silence, we need to break out of a. i want to tell you something. how to tell the secret starts november 29th on dw, the among the many was around the world that comes victims through don is distinguished by its level of savage rate. the mass that goes to the ethnic cleansing and the salvation is for many of its victims. my guest in brussels is former prime minister, bela who heads the coalition, the political and civil society groups trying to bring peace, trying and failing. in the last 3 months, the fighting is intensified and so as the involvement of foreign sciences, stroking the same's on all sides, what would it take to stop the blood shed and unify the shots of the country?

i'm the welcome to come pick. so you looking at the history of your country. so that's amazing thing. you've had since 1956, a staggering 17 cruise, along with a catalogue of civil war, decades of murder, starvation, misery. why have you will failed to bring peace to saddam and unite the country? thank you very much for the opportunity to do how do you appreciate this? that upside of that light from 1956, we failed. not only to keep the country together, but also we do not have up to, to the opinion. and constitution has always been temporary out of this 68 the so nation of who post independence,

55 years of them were under meter to why, why? i suppose we failed to get what i would cool in national project. that should have kept this house. i think a civilian if you remember, or are you ashamed of it? absolutely. it's affiliated or relates. the latest, seemingly endless civil war began 2023 between 2 military commanders, one from the surgeon. these armed forces general to the fact are behind the leader of the power military rapids support forces. but by general mohammed tiger low, you know, these men personally, don't you? i do. i worked with them in what we call a partnership,

an agreement that was a sign in 2019. and we lived together in the new, you know, one government for over 2 years until the article, the top of this, i think now they deserve to spend the rest of their life in general. so i believe all those who committed disabilities should be brought to book. what are they like? i think these are, these are killing something, obviously, that people are responsible for the desks. misery. absolutely. stop ation. destruction that they've ruined the your country. but that's what are they like? why don't you see this is what we're calling the failure of the also the, the military, which most of the country for 55 years. this is just a continuation of that. are they proud of what they're doing? are they proud of the killer?

i don't think any sensible human being would be proud of killing people. they don't sound this of the sensible human beings one way, live judgment, of course, to the why that is. so then these people that i should review on that, it's not as much as simple what this, what is some sense of this, what, what turned them into killers? was it, was it really about an agreement to power sharing power between the different forces because that collapse then they then set out to kill them, destroys many people as they could fall is uh, oppose that are so many reasons behind this, this war. as you advise you put it in your opening remark. this will def, i just want to notice that i've so many root causes of this one. that's the beauty to historic. in fact, that is you put into issues of the dynamics between center and pretty and even development, but also political issues linked to the domination of dot and the non so many other

markets. but what would make it stop? what would make this full stop? i think the private responsibility of stopping this war list with this, with these people, if we are able to light in a broad front that bring everybody together again, the store that we form the 1st step in the stopping before. but also we're going to live in an i solution in the, in an isolated island, we need the support that would be brought by the agent and the international community. and what about these 2 generals? what would make them stop? can the i think they need to know that the sequences for what you would do have you told them that i think everybody told them this that have sanctions that

have all this. yeah. do they enjoy? i don't think anybody would enjoy killing, but it's it just looks like a quite to assess it with the senseless thing. last month. so the major search and fighting in the country, hundreds killed in aerial, bombings and revenge attacks and evidence that there are increasing numbers of foreign fights as much. and who is now involved in the fighting. which countries that are involved, which countries, what are you most you know, in today as well, the team you will not find a single village that is isolated from what's happening around there are so many countries involved in this that he's on the close that asian fetish adhesion unfairly to uh,

fox. well that's pretty close comedy. let's pick a couple of them in the united arab emirates has been pretty active in the region. un inspectors say they've been running an extensive covert operation to supply the rapid support forces under the guise of supplying humanitarian assistance they denied. but, but the u. n. is clear, we'll do notice that a similar transition, liberty, that gave me all the countries and very u. a. egypt. so that it'd be uh on my show. i'm very true unless your created this object was issues and we would like us so that he's like whoever want or whoever, intervening in our situation should help us stop this war and feeling well, they're doing the opposite, the dump a whole these countries. but, you know,

we would like them to stop this intervention and to move towards helping us resolving this. where is the international will to stop them? to be honest with us, with an easy way to very disappointed with the international response on our classes today. so done is the lot of their present that a lot of just a human darien classes in the world as well as the killing se put more than $150000.00, which is i think it grossly underestimated. we might not even know the number of people who are killed. we have 25000000 subjected to farming and just thought of ition. people would die. we'd find me motivated as bullets. got more than 2000000 refugees. the flight of all this people as well being addressed. this is much,

much greater than guys. what do you create combined? and it's about to get worse in june, the chief prosecutor at the international criminal court came con, said he fear that in sudan. we are on the precipice of something, even worse. do you share that view? absolutely. absolutely. you say that, but in april you told an interview or you were in the tunnel up to most opposite duty. oh yeah. how, how long less do you find up to move in the situation that you've just described, where wherever i am, even with the team is in the moment that the physical museum ceased to exist. 6th period? oh, yes, of course. as you said, yes, the misery, the killing, the starvation. i don't see where you find that optimism. some people might say you've lost touch with reality. oh no, i was that i was the day and then all this i have been,

i live through this on my life. you see, i felt them to believe on the fact that crisis come was opportunities. if you allow yourself to just let meant the o as bad as i believes this is that that doesn't take you anywhere. you will need to have the courage to say that this would not put us down as a nation. what capable of doing clear things and then it you, you can go on saying this, but as a secretary general of the un, antonio gutierrez said last month, your people trapped in a nightmare of violence and disease and displacement. and you say there's up to miss? no, i'm not saying i'm not describing the situation as what you have up to. yes, i am say you cannot look to face this class is that if you are just complaining forever, that would not have probably seemed to be any sense of urgency. no,

that is. that is, we're became doing the same things and the killing goes on and nothing stops lifting the leslie 31 thing you know is all dismiss that he's with give the will that he very important. i'm glad to find an uprising that definitely dictates the military to get the ship was toppled by this way, then easy. and 1964. we did it again in 55 and we did it in 2019. so this was then, these people have accumulated, varies from experience or for existence. it's, it's an a 2 minute process. i'm very strong experience of human rights violation. yeah, yes. yes. and war crimes war chromebook was old. this, this new did not detect us from putting this data in the palm. where did it to the past the past, this is the only 3 years ago. the last one where,

where did this extreme level of savage rate come from? why does it come from? i is it part of your people? is it part of who you? wow, actually this is about adults because as then he's got a lot of video commodities. we are peace loving. we're out of never buying gold as a, as an issue. and you guys asked me cleansing is now becoming a huge future of is the civil war, isn't it? but do you see all this issues of driven by small 900 smoking and has an answer with the why? the police, your best confidence sucks everybody. you just to the, to on, on, but you see that the entities that the majority of this is and he's a piece of living there, needs to get a peaceful coexistence. actually, diversity is essential for students should not be sense of weakness isn't the

ethnic cleansing the hardest of the motives to address. because if you're the wrong type, you die, don't you rewind to being the prime example of to 1994. the fact romeo de la who left the un mission and ran to during the genocide, he said last month, we fear the suit on crisis is on the road to becoming a repeat of the 1994 rwanda genocide. i don't know if you should know. i know, i know, but i hope not knew at least that point what we had working tirelessly is to avoid that fit. and i think with the result of the determination of our people, obviously that these people and the support of our friends and peace loving people in the world. we wouldn't be able to avoid this. let's talk about the work. do you lead a coalition of democratic forces cold talk? i do more progress. if you tried to organize peace talks, but negotiations have have gone no way in january. you signed to deal with the

rapids support forces including a c spot, but it was rejected by switching these politicians. you're talking to parties that have continually broken the wood. and i'm wondering what's the point of talking to people like pat, look the you comp, trust them from one day to the next can do, which is the name of the called the nation of civilian democratic forces is the largest alliance officers and these groups, which has together brought together political pop. these 3 unions and profession is secret society resistance committees, some of the groups and all that. it's because we had a very impressive funding convention. you know this above, in the end of may, june, this year, which we, we would frontier, let's have them to achieve anything approaching. you'll go, which is piece i,

i know what i'm yeah, i don't think that is we, we, this, this, this google was found admittedly 4 months ago. not expected to undo, such a huge legacy, but we put forward what a very sound uh, vision, political vision. but the rest of these to not allow me, i can just quickly outline the measure. kelly mcduffy stopped weas. we do not believe there is a mini the dissolution to this crisis. we have to go through a political process, right? that's all there. isn't that that kind of thing? i mean, i guess it's obvious, it is obvious, but because a lot of people will think it is not people to think they can win this war, which is totally nonsense. we think the number one priority to the in this vision is the addressing, whom attendant crises on address, the protection of civilian as number one prior to this time dog in august,

there were american lead piece talks that kicked off in geneva. but so don's military didn't even send negotiate as this, so they went nowhere. you can't even get a ceasefire, isn't your priority to get a c spot and then talk when the fight and the guns have gone silent. sure. will that be the priority? is somebody some rest spiked for that was why was saying, you know or vision number one priority, is that and you know, it's not the only option in geneva. there was a number of attends before that it was dead which stopped it very well. but that is stalled quickly. then there is my now my wish was much better produced a very well document shut down by the military. and then that is also which the media that is more about the how can i be a very good document when people go on time? i know it doesn't matter whether it's a good document or not. so unless you produce results and the results on coming down, that is true. but to dissolve this,

come up there all from there is all just has to be aware of so many confusions or discussion. you agree on uh, on the document, you put it to the test and all that. why don't i think that's what it has to be. so when you go just one of the things you said a moment ago, you talked about over throwing. oh my god bless she who was present and 15 decades ousted in 2019. he was indicted by the i. c. c. twice on some of the most serious charges, including crimes against humanity. when you were prime minister, you announce september 4th 2021. but the suit of these concert ministers had agreed to extradite a bush year to the hague. why didn't that happen? still hasn't happened? do you recall that? it's september 20 twin twin the code to police october 21, one months after back one month. but why in that months didn't you send him to the hague? this is not that simple. we've seen sue's day when we came,

we had open, very fruitful corporation with icbc. they opened an office, we started working. they produce 3 options for the pilots, whether at home, on the vision or in the icbc and wedding gauging with them. there was a crew, as you said, but in november you were back again. you returned again to the prime minister's office. why didn't you send the bus you to the hague? i said i stayed one months and design. i mean documents. we were trying to put the brake on the cool and, and do so many decisions that we had taken in the period of one months when i was in detention. but wouldn't it have been a huge symbolic achievement to sent him to tie it into the office as a prime minister? there was no government, there was no institutions. there wasn't loving i was trying to put

a brick on that. and it in the, to the transition, meaning bring it back in a students doing all this things that were abolished by the cool the effect of getting rid of it. but she, it was, was extraordinary. the crowds where you fall right around the countries suddenly odd flourish, people were talking about politics. the west was offering to forgive your debts even back. and yet you couldn't hang onto this you for it or why not? it didn't last. why? there is one is, you know, of the toppling of the dictatorship happen because we owe, you might've had a very strong in united to them at that you have that. but the 2nd, the we had a lot of you could call it the divisions, people went back by and did flags. and all this, i know we had this, this is

a legacy of 50. it's but this was your best johnson 30. you looked into it just, it was our best jones. after 50 years, we did a lot in 2 years on the economic front, right. you have so many issues on the political front, on the little video. so then from the state of a sponsor, terrorism addressing. so many issues you cannot expect a government that is being just transplanted as far as the cabinet to undo into years. legacy effects. yes. this is a don't thing is like somebody come in, do you, where do you do you wish you had done things different to when you look back? so i leave that to the you have no regrets. no, i see you at the tone and the i, my question is, is very clear because we worked on those with

a month that hung out of the people to make a mistake. so the chief, some would know that you have some good ideas and the guy and all this. you continue to adjust to that you continue pressing for cease 5 for a formula that will bring an end to all the cottage. but you, you have plenty of enemies of your own. and so don, the current government wants to put you on trial on a number of charges, including incitement to war against the state undermining the constitutional order of crimes against humanity. you've denied all these accusations, but how can you be seen by all sides as a is observed as a, as a as an impartial broker. look this when you have these charges. hi, this is misconception. well, i'm not a broker. so i have not mediated regarding that because it we have to take

a line with the spanish and of a lot of people. so don't think about us as people there mediating between to box. no, we've got that with these charges. how are you? this is for what the government go to talking about. there's no government. this is a government suspended, but after communion this you can call it the fact to government because the international community wanted to deal with somebody that there's no government. yeah. for cuz you know, it hasn't been a lot of help in this. you mentioned the we've just suspended what they just suspended, no incorporation. that the go, the not the suspicion of corporations is suspended the membership of the surround government because they have an instrument that any unconstitutional take over the board. they come with undergraduate and this has been, this was i'm from point one. but they also, when the water broke, they had to the stablish to highlight his opinion on to them led by a very able, the, or the least for more, for the new stuff gonna. they have

a stablish to call me 3 or 5 presidents led by the president that most of the new uganda we expect them to do more expect them to help us, particularly, or issues related to the protection of civilians. underwood engaging the ones we know that deficiencies and all that, but i think it is our premium content in the body. and we are happy to work with them in, in, in, in the dressings, where they haven't had a lot more success than what they've set out to do then you have, i mean, they promised that the guns would fall silent in africa by 2025. didn't say smoking to happened this at the sound of spanish and goal can be achieved clear over 5. there's no point where you keep missing these deadline to set the deadlines. you keep missing. well, you know, it doesn't help the village. he does. one of the very distinguished, pretty them fight that was in south africa, was asking 1974 when this apartheid would fall. he said in 10 years, it went to 20th inside of spanish and goals. we strive, produce them,

we might not produce them in this at the time, but the idea would come produce them with the results and determination of able to put a new ideas you. you need new ideas, don't you? because because everything you've tried so far, hasn't worked out things well. what, what we outlining, having flight or have this vision of the pos, protection of civilians use fire and political process with them you can using which we call it round table. com phones which you would expect to bring together all kind of uh for the asian political parties. and we're working on that and we are actually moving in diabetics that i do. is it easy? now many of us will have multi site that i do. and i think we are not thinking about this hasn't even it's a process which takes time with squarespace as high sense of urgency because people

are dying. but we will reach that very briefly. you can't go back to that at the moment. do you think we have come a day when you can't? are you worried about your safety even being outside? no, of course the talk is all the time about not only that position is that forwarding open lead by a feeling myself or colleagues and thought i'd do a mindful of that. but i'm not different from what is happening to this with these people inside the company. the thank you very much for the confidence that most welcome back to the

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experience outstanding shopping and dining offers and drawing hours services be our guest at frankfurt. airport city managed by frank bought the this is dw, there's live in from berlin tonight, growing hopes of a truce, and the war between israel and has pull up. the us on boy, i most hawks dine says there's progress in peace negotiations for now. there's no lit up in the conflict of it on reports more than 3500 people have been killed. also coming up ukraine. the key is the kremlin of psychological warfare and has dismissed mornings of a major russian missile strike. the thread forced the u. s embassy and keith to close for the day and you can to the opposition leader charged with compromising national security. is cesar best agent? the culprit here or.