because i might have some trouble, so i'll fixed a new culture and then 15 minutes, let's say together talks about community life on the surface of this research is now on the among the many was around the world that comes victims through done is distinguished by its level of savagery, the mass that goes to the ethnic cleansing and the salvation is for many of its victims. my guest in brussels is former prime minister, bela who heads the coalition, the political and civil society groups trying to bring peace, trying and failing. in the last 3 months, the fighting is intensified and so as the involvement of foreign sites is something the same is on all sides. what would it take to step the blood shed and unify the shots of the country and duck,

welcome to come pick. so you looking at the history of your country, so that's amazing thing. you've had since 1956, a staggering 17 cruise, along with a catalogue of civil war, decades of murder, starvation, misery. why have you will failed to bring peace to suit them and unite the country. thank you very much for the opportunity to do. how do you appreciate this? you got upset, looks like from 1956. we failed. not only to keep the country together, but also we do not have up to to, to compare them. and then the constitution has always been temporary out of this, a 68 the so nation of who most independence,

55 years of them were under meter. why, why? i suppose we failed to get what i would cool in national project. that should have kept this house. i think a civilian. if you remember what are you ashamed of it? absolutely. so failure of, of really the latest, seemingly, endless civil war began 2023 between 2 military commanders, one from the suits. and these armed forces general to the fact are behind them, the leader of the power military rapids support forces. but by general mohammed tiger low, you know, these men personally, don't you? i do. i worked with them in what we call a partnership,

an agreement that was a sign in 2019. and we lived together in the new now, when government for over 2 years until the article, the top of this, i think now they deserve to spend the rest of their life in general. so i believe all those who committed disabilities should be brought to book. what are they like, like these are, these are killing sunday officers that people are responsible for the desk. misery, absolutely. starvation, the destruction that they've ruth on that of you, your country. but that's what are they like? why don't you see? this is what we're calling the failure of the also the, the military, which most of the country for 55 years. this is just a continuation of that. or are they proud of what they do? are they proud of the killer?

i don't think any sensible human being would be proud of killing people. they don't sound good, so that's sensible human beings. one way to live judgment, of course, to the why that is. so then these people that i should have you on this, not this much as simple. what this, what is some sense of this? what, what turned them into killers? was it, was it really about an agreement to power sharing power between the different forces? because that collapse then they then set out to kill and destroy as many people as they could fall. assume i oppose that of so many reasons behind this. this was, as you advise, you put it in your opening remark. this will def, i just want to notice that i've so many root causes of this one. that's the beauty to historic. in fact, uh, did you put the book into issues of the dynamics between center and pretty and even development, but also political issues linked to the domination of the army. and i'm assuming

the other facts but what would make it stop? what would make this will stop, i think the private responsibility of stopping disorder, rest of the disadvantaged people. if we are able to might, in a broad front that bring everybody together again, the store that we form the finishes step in into stopping before. but also we're going to live in an ice, a nation, and then isolated island. we need the support that would be brought by that vision and the international community. and what about these 2 generals? what would make them stop? can they i think they need to know that god sequences. what do we do? have you told them that i think everybody told them this,

that have sanctions that have all this. yeah. do they enjoy? i don't think anybody would enjoy killing, but it's, it's, it looks like it's quite assessable, that senseless thing. last month. so a major search and fighting in the country, hundreds killed in aerial, bombings and revenge attacks and evidence that there are increasing numbers of foreign fights as most and who is now involved in the fight to which countries that are involved which countries water you most you know in today as well, the team you will not find a single village that is isolated from what's happening around the so many countries involved in this, that asian, the close that asian fetish at asian unfair that. uh uh, bye

a fuck. well, that's pretty much how many, let's pick a couple of them in the united arab emirates has been pretty active in the region. un inspectors say they've been running an extensive covert operation to supply the rapid support forces under the guise of supplying humanitarian assistance. they denied but, but the u. n. is clear, we'll do notice that a symbol exposition liberty, that gets all the companies and very you, a egypt, so that it'd be uh on russia. true, unless you ukraine, this out accusations and we would like us so that he's like whoever want or whoever, intervening in our situation should help us stop this war rather than feeling well they're doing the opposite, the dumping all these countries that you've now we would like them to stop this

intervention and to move towards helping us resolving this. where is the international will to stop them? to be honest with us, with an easy way to very disappointed with the international response on our classes today. so done is the lot of their present, the lot of just a human there in crisis in the world. well, the killing se put more than $150000.00, which is i think it goes to the end of estimate. we might not even know the number of people who are killed. we have 25000000 subjected to 5 minute. instead of asian people would, i was finding more than was what it's about, more than 2000000 refugees. the flight of all this people as well being addressed.

this is much, much greater than guys. what do you create combined? and it's about to get worse. in june, the chief prosecutor at the international criminal court came con, said he feared that didn't suit don. we are on the precipice of something even worse. do share that view. absolutely, absolutely. you say that, but in april you told an interview or you were in a tunnel optimised? absolutely. oh yeah. how, how long list do you find up to me? in the situation that you've just described, where wherever i am, even with that up to me is in the moment that the physics of the museum ceased to exist. 6th period. well, yes, of course. as you said, yes, the misery, the killing, the starvation. i don't see where you find that up to listen. some people might say you've lost touch with reality. no, no, i was there. i was the day and then all this i have been,

i live through this on my life. you see, i fed him to believe on the fact that crisis come was opportunities. if you allow yourself to just let mint o as bad as at least this is that that doesn't take you anywhere. you would need to have it caged to say that this would not put us down as a nation. what capable of doing good things and then it you can go on saying this, but as the secretary general of the un, antonio gutierrez said, last month, your people trapped in a nightmare of violence, hunger, disease, and displacement. and you say there's up to miss? no, i'm not saying i'm not describing the situation as what you have up to. yes, i am saying you cannot look to face this glasses and if you are just complaining forever, that would not have probably seemed to be any sense of urgency. no,

that is, that is where became doing the same things and the killing goes on. nothing stops nothing. but let me 31 thing you know is all dismiss at ease. we give the will 3 very important and gratifying uprising that double dictates the military to get the ship was doubled by this way, then easy and 1964. we did it again in 85 and we did it in 2019. so this was then as people have accumulated varies from experience or for existence. it's. it's an a 2 minute process. a very strong experience of human rights violation. yeah. yes. yes. and war crimes war chromebook, it was old. this, this new did not detect us from putting this data in the palm. where did it cost deposit? this is the only 3 years ago. the last one where,

where did this extreme level of savage rate come from? why does it come from i? is it part of your people? is it by that for you? wow. actually this is about adults because i said that he's got a lot of video commodities. we are peace loving. we're out of never buying gold as a, as an issue. and you guys asked me cleansing is now becoming a huge future of is this civil war, isn't it? but you see all these issues are driven by small 900 smoking and has an answer with the why the police are 1000 profit sucks everybody. you just wonder whether this is the most i know i see on the but you see that the entities that the majority of this is and he's out of peace loving, that needs to get a peaceful coexistence. actually, diversity is essential for students should not be sense of weakness isn't the

ethnic cleansing the hardest of the motives to address. because if you're the wrong type, you die, don't you rewind to being the prime example of to 1994. the fact romeo de la who left the un mission and ran to during the genocide, he said last month, we fear the suit on crisis is on the road to becoming a repeat of the 1994 rwanda genocide. i don't know if you should know. i know, i know, but i hope not knew at least the point what we had working tirelessly is to avoid that fate. i think with the result of the determination of our people so that these people and the support of our friends and peace loving people in the world. we wouldn't be able to avoid this. let's talk about the work you would do. you lead a coalition of democratic forces, cold talk, i do more progress. you've tried to organize piece talks,

but negotiations have have gone no way in january. you signed to deal with the rapids support forces including the cx 5. but it was rejected by sudanese politicians. you're talking to parties that have continually broken the wood, and i'm wondering what's the point of talking to people like pat, look the you comp, trust them from one day to the next can do, which is the name of the coordination of civilian democratic forces. is the largest alliance officer, then these groups, which has together brought together political pop. these 3 unions and profession is secret society resistance committees, some of the groups and all that. it's because we had a very impressive funding convention. you know this above, in the end of may, june, this year, which we, we would frontier, let's have them to achieve anything approaching your go, which is piece i,

i know what i'm, yeah, i, the only thing that is we, we, this, this, this little was found admittedly, 4 months ago, not expected to undo, such a huge legacy, but to be put forward. what a very sound the, the vision political, the vision. but the rest of these to not allow me. i can just quickly outline the measure. kelly mcduffy stopped weas. we do not believe there is a many the dissolution to this course. we have to go through a political process, but that's all there. isn't that, that kind of thing. i mean, i guess it's obvious, it is obvious, but because there are people who think it's not people to think they can win this war, which is totally nonsense. we think number one priority to the in this vision is the addressing whom attended clauses and to address the protection of civilians as number one prior to this time dog in august,

there were american let peace talks that kicked off in geneva. but so don's military didn't even send negotiate as this, so they went no way. you can't even get a ceasefire, isn't your priority to get a c spot and then talk when the fight and the guns have gone silent, should, will that be the priority? is somebody some risk spiked for that was why was saying, you know what, a vision number one priority is that and you know, it's not all the ups in geneva. there were a number of attends before that it was dead which stopped it very well. but that is stalled quickly, then that is my now my wish was much better produce a very well documented shut down by the military. and then that is also which the me that is more about the how can i be a very good document when people go on buying? oh no, it doesn't matter whether it's a good document or not expensive to unless you produce results and the results on coming down that is total. but that is all this cannot draw from that is all just

has to be aware of. so any questions or discussion you agree on, on the document, you put it to the test and all that. why don't i think that's what it has to be. so when negotiating, one of the things you said a moment ago, you talked about over throwing. oh my god bless you, who was present and 15 decades ousted in 2019. he was indicted by the i. c. c. twice on some of the most serious charges, including crimes against humanity. when you were prime minister, you announce september 4th 2021. but the suit of these concert ministers had agreed to extradite a bush year to the hague. why didn't that happen? still hasn't happened? do you equal that? it's september 2021. the code to police october 21 of one months after one month. but why in that months didn't you send him to the hague?

this is not that simple. we see sue's day when we came we had open, very fruitful cooperation with icbc. they opened an office, we stopped working. they produce 3 options for the pilots, whether at home or that asian organizing, see, and what in gauging with them. there was a cool, as you said, but in november you went back again. you returned again to the prime minister's office. why didn't you send the ship to the hague? i stayed, i stayed one months and design. i mean that months we were trying to put the brake when the cool and, and do so many decisions that we had taken in the period of one months when i was in detention. but wouldn't it have been a huge symbolic achievement to sent him to tie it into the office as a prime minister? there was no government, there was no institutions. there wasn't loving i was trying to put

a break on that. and it in the, to the transition meaning bring it back and it's fusions doing all this things that were abolished by the cool the effect of getting rid of it. but she, it was, was extraordinary. the crowds where you fall right around the country suddenly ok flourish. people were talking about politics. the west was offering to forgive your debts, even that. and yet you couldn't hang onto this, you for a why not? it didn't last. why? there is one is, so you know, the toppling of the dictatorship happen because we only when i had a very strong united to them at that you have that. but from the 2nd the, we had a lot of you could call it the divisions. people went back by and did flags and all

of this, and we had this, this is a legacy of 50. it's but this was your best johnson 30. you looked into it just. it was our best jones. after 50 years, we did a lot in 2 years on the economic front, actually have so many issues on the political fun on the move of some of them from the state of a sponsor, updated resume addressing so many issues. you cannot expect a government that is being just transplanted as far as the cabinet to undo into years legacy or fits. yes. this is a daunting. this is just like somebody to man, you're going to do you wish you had done things different day when you look back. so i leave that to the you have no regrets. no us do a ton and the i a my question is very clear because we worked and those with

a month that hung out of the people to make a mistake. so the chief some good. not that you have some but good ideas, guy and all of this. you continue to adjust to that you continue pressing for cease 5 for a formula that will bring an end to all the cottage. but you, you have plenty of enemies of your own. and so done, the kind of government wants to put you on trial on a number of charges, including incitement to war against the state, undermining the constitutional order of crimes against humanity. you've denied all these accusations, but how can you be seen by all sides as a observer, as a, as a, as an impartial broker. look this when you have these charges issues misconception where i'm not a broker. so i have not mediated reading the think of it a lot to align with the spanish and overall of people. so don't think about us as

people there. mediating between to fox. no, we got into that with these charges. how are you? this is for what the government go to talking about. there's no government. this is a government suspended because of the community of this you can call it defect to government because the international community wanted to deal with somebody that there's no government. yeah. for cuz there hasn't been a lot of help in this. you mentioned the we've just suspended what they just suspended, no incorporation with the go the not the suspension and difficult creation. this suspended the membership of the government because they have an instrument that penny unconstitutional deck over for they come up under to 10. this has been this. we've gone from point one, but they also, when the water broke, they had the established high levels binding onto them. lead by a very able, the waiting list for more for the new stuff done. they have established

a committee of 5 presidents led by the president, that most of the neo for uganda, we expect them to do more expect them to help us, particularly with issues related to the protection of civilians, underwood engaging demons. we know that deficiencies and all that, but i think it is our premium content in the body and we are happy to work with them in, in, in, in the dressings, where they haven't had a lot more success than what they've set out to do. then you have, i mean they promised that the guns would fall silent in africa by 2025. didn't say so, what kind of happened is that the sound of spanish and goals can be achieved going yeah, but if i, if there's no point where you keep missing these deadlines, you set the deadlines. you keep missing well, you know, it doesn't help the village. he does, one of the very distinguished, pretty them fight that he was on south africa, was asking 1974 when this apartheid would fall. he said in 10 years, it went to 20th, is out of spanish and goals. we strive to teach them,

we might look at each them in the set the time, but they would come to use them with the results and determination of able to put a new ideas you. you need new id is, don't you? because because everything you've tried so far, hasn't worked out things well. what, what do we outlining having flight, or have this vision or the paths protection of civilians use fire and political process was that we can using which we call it around table compounds, which we expect to bring together all kind of, uh, from the asian political office i'm working on that and we are actually moving in diabetics. does that do? is it it, you know, many of us will have most inside, but i do. and i think we are not thinking about this as an event. so process,

which dick time with the course of that is as high sense of urgency because people are dying. but we will appreciate that very briefly. you can't go back to that at the moment. do you think they'll come a day when you kind are you worried about your safety even being outside? no, of course the talk is all the time about not only that position is that according open lead by a feeling myself or colleagues instead of doing mine older but i'm not different from what is happening to this with these people inside the company. the thank you very much for the confidence that most welcome back to the

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