smell and the daughters i am willing to live for change. i will sing my song. maybe my voice will be heard. seeking justice for the victims of genocide this week on d. w. the, there's plenty of evidence for questioning the government in russia is more dangerous of it's brand new living memory. my guess this week was sentenced to 25 years in jail for criticizing the war and ukraine for it was released this year and the largest east, west prison swap since the cold war. he's that he may have car loans and he's lost . none of his idealism for optimism about the future. despite all evidence to the country, this british russian national insistence one day russia will become a modern, free european country. and the future does not belong to our kid, the leisure and repressive one manual authoritarian dictation science dictatorship

assignment was in the future of the last year of democracy and is absolutely no reason why the russian people should not be able to live in a develop democratic system just like the rest of your team countries, where on the says that's come from the cut on was welcome to come pick tone. thank you so much for having me. i want to spend a good deal of this interview talking about your personal experiences and what you learned from them about your country and indeed about yourself. but we're talking in what's being widely described as a period of maximum danger in east west relations. how do you think the west is handling it and has it been guilty of appeasing russia? do you think? well, i think it for look at the last 25 years of a lot of mental control because next month or walk exactly 25 years since this man came to power in russia. what we'll see uh, a sad history of appeasement of letting me, who can bike uh,

western needs on both sides of the atlantic. because the direction of mr. google's rule was very clear from the very beginning, as we remember. well, one of the 1st acts of learning improving in office was to reinstate the style, the nearest silvia national end. as the national anthem of the russian federation of russia is the country of symbols. and if you were to choose a symbol to signal the direction of you really could not have chosen a more potent one. and it wasn't, it wasn't long before the symbols will follow by actions and vladimir pollutants. regime began to move against independent media against political opponents. against the independence of the condition, judiciary of parliament, the institution of elections, and so on and very quickly transformed russia from the imperfect democracy. we had back end of boris yeltsin in 1990 for the perfect dictatorship that it is today. but all this, while we saw western leaders on both sides of atlantics shape vitamin pollutants hand invite him for international summit, real out of the roll out the red carpet, you know, bike all the gas from him. look into his eyes and she is. so bush reset and bottles

and so on and so forth. if you're in raleigh, go about from, i'm sorry to interrupt or victory, what it won't be a piece of dictate as leads to we know this from the history of the 1950s. and we noticed also from the history of the last 25 years of light. and if you feel right about appeasement, does the west look like an easy target? as far as booting is concerned, especially where you credit is concerned. it has to be, remember that, you know, in, in a democratic system, compromise is a good notion, right? because, you know, democratic politics is based on compromise on checks and balances on finding common ground, but for dictated for an aggressive for a bully. like dividing that food, compromise from the other side is not an invitation to reciprocate. it's an invitation to grab more, to be more aggressive, to attack someone else. and this is exactly what lot of applicant's been doing, because you know what? you're going away with. attacking georgette, you're going away with an extreme crime yet. you've got away with testing several dozens of russian arguments on the civilian population in syria in 2015. and in

february 2022, he thought, okay, if i've gotten away with all of that before, i'm going to get away with this one too. and i think he was actually surprised by the united front of the west. finally pulled up in support of the solver and independence of ukraine, as they say better late than never. but it's really important that the west western governments do not fall back into the habit of appeasing. glad, and it wouldn't because we do hear such voices in recent times, coming from western capitals. how far beyond ukraine do you imagine that put in some patients extend? let them out because sole goal is to continue staying and pallets or whatever means necessary. he is leaving power for a quarter of a century. he does not have any intention of leaving. it doesn't mean he won't leave a product expansion of these borders, expansion of his board as well in russia. we know from the long history of russia that internal refreshing and external aggression always go hand in hand. and after flooding my food and was done,

was destroying the opposition in russia. and i need intruding destroying physically, you know, the 2 leading political opponents of lot important, boris and himself, and unexplained divinely when that on his direct orders after he was done was suppressing, uh, you know, any alternative view points, any opposition inside the country? he moved outside his board as and so as long as the smiles remains, as long as this man remains in power, as long as this aggressive all sorts here and regime remains in the kremlin, russia will continue to be a threat both to its own people to our own citizens and to a neighboring country. the only strategic solution to this is to have this regime in the crime and replace by a legitimate, the elective democratic government that will respect the rights and freedoms of our own people. and will respect the international rules of civilized behavior on the world stage. this is the only way to ensure lasting peace, stability, and security. on the european continent, a democratic rush, i want to, i want to talk about that and a possible past way to that later on. but i wonder if in your view putting is in

fact winning the war the moment i ask because here's a man indicted for war crimes by the international criminal court. and you have the heads of some $25.00 countries representing more than 40 percent of the world's population. we're quite happy to turn up recently and so cheap for the so called brick summit to smile and shake his hand. are you disappointed by that? and by the complete lack of condemnation, from those leaders for what he's been doing in ukraine. well, frankly, it was shameful to see those photographs from cars on and on to and it gutierrez, this extra term of united nations. you know, shaking. glad i'm able to send them literally boeing to them, and i believe that's what the photo looked like. you remember the one i'm talking about. and also recently in the last 3 months or so, a lot of the poodle made an official visit to go there, which is actually a signatory state to the ro statute, and is a legally obligated to follow through with the i c. c warren, but it didn't,

it rolled out a red carpet for vitamin food and that invited him in, you know, the president, i'm going to assure cassandra, for the cameras and so forth. by the way, i think they should be international consequences from a guardian this, because different countries flagrantly violates its clear legal obligations as it did in this regard. and have to be some consequences for that. this is not acceptable when it comes to western sanctions on russia, you're not happy are you because put into still finding a way around many of them. but also because some are affecting ordinary russians rather than the regime. why is that so bad on the russians likely to oppose the war if they're affected in a non aggressive non military mama? well then these last 4 months that i've been out of prison having sort of catching up on 2 and a half years worth of information vacuum. and i've been, frankly shocked by the way the sanctions mechanisms operate in many western countries. on the one hand, i was shocked by how many glaring coals they still are in the sections mechanism. you know, for example, it was an absolutely astonishing fat that all right, and

a recent report on that and they loved them. same thing, the to 30 percent of all the arguments and all the ministry technology is used by cooking zombie and ukraine still come from western or western allied sources. this is unacceptable. we're almost 3 years into this full scale invasion, the largest, and that if you conflict in europe since the end of the 2nd world war. and we still see that while and essentially western countries are aging and a bed and 2 things war efforts and ukraine. this is the only the only way i can pull this. i was shocked to see the so many people from lucas close circle are still free able to travel around western countries. and i still enjoyed, you know, the beneficial privileges of, of traveling around countries in european union. for example. again, this is competing unacceptable, almost 3 years into the full scale invasion of ukraine. and of course, we have seen many other ways that the food machine has been able to 2nd van these international sections, particular with the so called shuttle fleet, which he's using to continue setting his energy resources all over the world. how.

what about truck actually into the sanctions on people on right. and they type russian people that i was just coming to the only other side of the issue. i see that some countries, not all, i have to stress it does this, but some countries in your opinion, i've chosen to impose these complete blanket bands on everybody who happens to have a russian passport. you know, people are banned from coming in from crossing the borders from receiving visas from driving was russian number place and so on. and festival, this is completely unacceptable in the 21st century to discriminate against didn't try a nation simply based on citizenship based on nationality. in fact, this is expressly prohibited biological 14 of the european convention of human life . but this also plays during directly into the hands of google's propaganda machine because, you know, it makes it so easy for the kremlin to say, oh, look, these west and as the old rooster folks as the crumb and propagandist like to say, they hate everybody who's russian and this is just an easy wait, the poor goose propaganda can have a field day with this. and to me,

the sanctions mechanisms have to be re calibrated in a way where they actually pick what needs to be hit. they actually target the foot whole machine. they actually target the proof more economy and make it more difficult, and ideally impossible. couple of things, we're going to continue this one regression in ukraine. but on the other hand, it is unacceptable when sanctions in a blanket white target, anybody who happens to have a russian passport the ukrainians was so happy with what you said, one of them, a presidential adviser beside the exit southern people calling themselves russian opposition, cooling cofer easing sanctions probably to ensure, well, resources don't run out. the true russian opposition, activity with weapons in hand helps repel pollutants holds in don't bus and the khaki of regions. he was referring to russian volunteer units. fighting on ukraine's side has he got a point as well. in fact, what you just go to directly contradicts what i've just said, you know, he's calling for easing sanctions. we are calling for recalibrating sanctions to

make sure, let me repeat this again. the, the sanctions actually do target poses will machine and purpose war economy and make it more difficult or invest impossible for him to continue his war of aggression in ukraine. but yes, on the other hand, the sanction should not hit independent journalist from russia. human rights activists from russia, independent, the lawyers from russia for actually where you're open to helping ukrainian fuel w's in russian prisoners. because you're absolutely makes no sense that these people should be targeted solely be hurt because the whole russian passport. this is what we're saying is some people choose to sort of pervert and twist around what we are saying that remain on that conference. you've said the booth and must not be allowed to win. what if he does? well, of course, in the most important sense because already lost the war, and ukraine saw me saying he's already one. know he is already lost because let's

not forget his original aims. in february 2022, it was taken care of in 5 days. it was destroying ukraine as a sovereign, independent country that was able to make its own decisions and phone and domestic policy. i don't both of those kinds very clearly. blood important has actually failed. 3 holds 90 percent of the country. it's 20 percent of the country. now. the goal was 100 percent. the goal was the destruction of ukraine as a southern independence day. of course, what you're saying, that's exactly how the food and propaganda machine will try to present it. but he must not be allowed to get away with this because the only way to judge the outcome is to compare it with the original goals. it didn't take you ever in 5 days. it did not destroy your trainers, this already independent country. and it's very clear that he will not be able to because of a, you know, very strong, very resilient resistance by the training people over these last, almost 3 years really well over these last 10 years. really because let's not forget the actually pollutant begun his war and ukraine and in the spring of 2014

and whichever way the food and propaganda machine will try to twist this in the most important sense. he has already failed, but i agree with your point to whatever the final settlement looks like. now there's a lot of talk about the new american administration removal. move to a sort of a towards cheating some sort of a settlement the next year. and you're freezing the freezing the conflict on counting blind spot speed as long as your husband. but none of us knows how exactly this will look. but there's a lot of drunk and out in the media. and it's very, very important that the brutal regime is not allowed to present itself as, as coming out, try out from, from this war. because we know that this would only encourage an aggressor to strike again. let's talk if we may about you personally. sentence last year to an almost unbelievable $25.00. you had jail to him on cheese and judges in particular, criticizing the war in ukraine. you said at the time that after 2 decades in

russian politics with all you'd seen and experience, nothing could surprise you. but this did, didn't that this 25 year sentence really surprised you? why when you'd seen the brutality of the regime close up? well, i like historical education and one when i was arrested back in the spring of 2022 . after the full scale of what, again, i was expecting my experience to be somewhat similar to the experience of the dissidents of the 19 sixties and 19 seventies and 19 eighties in the soviet union. but actually the experience that i went through was much closer to style in science, in a sense of my trial was held completed behind closed doors. in the sense that the defense was not even formally allowed to get out to present evidence, to add any documents. and this was a company chan, even by the standards of you know, the post starting period. let's say i'm telling me version of the said the union. and of course, as, as, as you've mentioned it to him, the samples itself and the last time political prisoners in,

in our country about 25 year sentence as well as joseph started this samples as long as not being handed down to a political prisoner. since darling's best in 1953 and, and this was of course the message from the, from the nursing i'm. it wasn't only for my, from the criticism of the war in ukraine. it wasn't only for my public criticism of a political repression political assassinations in russia. wasn't only from my public criticism, fully illegality of pollutants approaching the constitutional term limits to stay in power essentially forever. those are the official charges in my case, but we added sort of unofficial charge was my involvement over many years. even advocacy, fully migrate schools around the world. the laws that impose targeted personal sanctions on human rights abuses from hooton's close circle it was because the mind go over the magnet skills that i've been twice, boys in by, in f as b that scored in 20152017. and a judge who handed blue my 25. yes. and this last year was the same judge. so he gave her the per girl who had jailed so again, like netscape,

back in 2008. and who was one of the 1st people sanctioned, under the magnet sky act in the united states. but i help the bus. and so this was very clear, very demonstrative from the crime and, and it shows, by the way, what they're really afraid of. they really are afraid of western countries imposing these to target at personal sanctions. and people overall got used to stealing and russia. and then stashing away and spending a lot money in the west. and those types of sanctions should absolutely be strengthened, expanded and made more effective. you were kept in solitary confinement day of today. what was the worst moments for you? look at. it's like an end does groundhog day, you know it's, it's, it's meaningless. every day is the same. um, i was sitting in a small cell, a couple of like cell 2 by 3 meters full walls, a small window onto the ceiling with metal bars. your bunk bed gets attached to the wall at 5 o'clock in the morning and then you can take it down again until a life out of 9 pm. so the whole day essentially you can just walk around in a small circle inside the cell,

sort of this really uncomfortable stool that sticks out of the wall. kinda when you sit on that for long. um you have no one to speak to. you have nothing to do, you have no way to go failing your allowed you to write. so they only give you a pen and paper to rifle 19 minutes a day. that's all i'm gonna take it away again. and where do you go? where do you go in your mind under those conditions? well, and worst of all, they did not allow me to communicate with my family. i was not allowed any phone calls with my wife and my children, and this is a condition that goes back to start as time as well. but they seats are punished, not just a political opponent, but the family to. and so what really helped a survive in that situation that will really help to stay same with how the honest with you is. oh, 1st of all, my christian faith because you know, i know that at the end of the day everything will be decided on that note by some people who are saying that they deliver thing. secondly, my education and my background is like a store and communicating useful, i must say, because look, we've had all this in russia before, you know, you worked in the soviet union as

a journalist. we've had all this in russian history before. and we know how it ends and, you know, we know that it will end because nothing is forever. but certainly what really helped you know, many years ago i was making a documentary film about so he had to sit and see what's called a shows freedom. one of the blame should be for that feeling was for the mirror because of the legendary this it and also spent many, many years and associate gulard. and i asked him what to help him survive in those conditions. what, how can survive and prisoners and, and labor counsel psychiatric hospitals with which he was confined to as well. and he has a very simply, i knew that i was right. and at the time i saw this is just a nice sounding phrase. and you know, i put it in a cell of course, because it sounded good. but having gone for the experience myself, i know just time for them that is, i knew that i was right. i knew that the real criminals are those people in the crowded and who have started the war in ukraine. now those of us for word, for some, because we had a poster and was, you know that your right. the fear in the doubt just go away. when you were in

court, you had created with russians not to give up protesting and demonstrating after the death of alexa and the found me and you ask them to continue what you go to, i'll work with even greater strength. so the russians, you said, become a normal free european country and you added, i have absolutely no doubt this will happen. where does that certainty come from? from being just storing because they know that at the end of the day, you know, the eoc of history as they say, may not bend as fast as we'd like. but it does bent towards live, which in the future does not belong to our kick, the leisure and repressive one man, also our chair and dictatorship, cited dictatorship of letting me put in the future belongs to democracy. and there's absolutely no reason why the russian people should not be able to live in a develop democratic system because like the rest of europe and countries do, i don't look at you look at the map of europe's 83540 years ago. you know, when you, when you were working in, in moscow by historical standards, this is nothing. this is like yesterday morning we will see that off of the coffees

on the european continent while living under various forms of authoritarian addict tutorial regimes. if we look at the map of europe today, there are only 2 dictatorships laptops, pluto's russian location because, well, it was. so the directions very clear and i democracy is back sliding democracy according to freedom. mouse has been back sliding for 18 years. and i want to know what you think by what pos rusher gets from brutal dictatorship to free european country. and what might that, jody cost a look. one thing we definitely know from russian history is that fundamental political change happens suddenly quickly at this level of a thing that you know, both as far as versioning by the beginning of the 20th century. and the communist regime, at the end of the 20th century, went down in 3 days. this is literally how it happened. this is how it's going to happen the next time. none of us knows exactly when how in what circumstances the food emerging move fault. but it will, and we have to be ready for it because one of the biggest problems you might view

was the 19 ninety's was that people were not prepared for such a swift and southern collapse of the soviet regime because it seems to be stable and secure and it seemed to be forever and then suddenly it was gone. and so many mistakes were made because of that unpreparedness. and we cannot afford to repeat those mistakes the next time because as i think everybody can see very clearly now what happens in russia affects everyone. and the only way to ensure long term stability, security, and peace on the european continent. the only way you're up can ever become truly whole free and a piece is with a democratic russian. and so it must all be preparing for that day. after poking to make sure we did not repeat the mistakes that were made in the 1990 to make sure that the next time we really do get it right. you say you must all be preparing. we must all be preparing. but to do what you did is many steps to fall for the vast majority of people. it's a journey to

a dock place. you knew where you were taking that journey and ultimately you, you were taking your family with them because those those close to your relatives, all those who were going to suffer as a result of your incarceration. that's a price that's way too high for most people to pay. isn't there? yeah, absolutely. and that's true of any society in any country, you will not find many people who do prefer to go to prison for just speaking out, you know, about what they believe and then that is normal. by the way, i mean otherwise to manage it will not survive, but that's not what i'm talking about. i'm not talking about people having to speak out and go to prison. this regime will collapse. this is a historical and eligibility. and when i say that we must be ready. what i mean is that we have to have a roadmap for the day after putting in russia domestically to my mind, this means 1st and foremost, that will have to have a process of public reckoning, a public reflection of all the primes that are being committed by the food and raising of course the will crimes that communion is great,

but also the many crimes that commissioning against, and have committed against our own people in russia. these explanation of bodies sense of these explanation of alexander binding, the persecution of hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of political prisoners in russia. they will have a regular number of political persons in russia. for the more than guy is more than 1300 according to human rights groups. that will have to be accountability for this because for evil to never return again, it has to be public. he reflected on and probably kicking them. we have seen this in many countries, that sort of what overcoming this trauma fast auto during world, south africa after apartheid latin american states after ministry dictatorship, central and eastern europe off the colonies, one so, and we'll never really have that process in russia in the ninety's well, we'll have to have it after food and an international aspect of this preparedness to me means that the west needs to stand ready to provide critical assistance to that postal russia to make sure that that transition to democracy successful next time. but also just with the,

we integrate that future post boot and democratic brushing back into the civilized world, back into your back into what we call the international rules based on that. because the only way you or can be peaceful, stay below secure and democratic is where they democratic rational gonna happen any other way. and you don't see it. this is very difficult to take root in a world where democracy as i said before, is backsliding, where the rules based order is seem to be inadequate for keeping rules or keeping order. the trend is not in that direction. is it? what history always lows as i say, 2 steps forward, one, step back, just eps. hold on, stand back. so yes, there will be back sliding. there will be regresses. there will be things that we should be concerned about him. we shouldn't be concerned about that. but in the end of the day, the direction again is undeniable, and the directions on the stake above and the ok and 5th street does the band towards liberty, even though it may not do so as fast as we don't like very briefly. and about 15

seconds, because we're running out of time for you going back to russia is a matter i think you said of when not, if i'm the one under what circumstances would you go back wants to food and regime is going on. we will have a minus task ahead of us because these people, this regime will leave our country enrolling. so what we need to rebuild the economy, what we need to rebuild the institutions of democracy. we're going to rebuild the international reputation of our country to make sure that russia can return to the civil as well as normal democratic european countries. and this is what i intend to do. i can dedicate my life in my work too, and i have no doubt that they will come, but the america will be the great pleasure avenue in governing. so thank you very much. indeed. it was great you in your program. thank you so much. the,

the, the ubiquitous uninvited guess, red skin drive you up the wall on the never ending place. but scientists are now changing their to saying, we've gotten it all wrong. so what are these clever masters of survival? really like harmon rooms, parallel or the in 75 minutes on d w the

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get in by the some people don't care about me because they don't see my beauty. some people don't care about me because they think i have nothing to give back to you to do. to them. i am everything at home, they have food and livelihood that day by day. i do so. and so does everything 92000000000 people care about me needs me. and now the

this is dw news live from the in the ceasefire between israel and hezbollah and lebanon has now taken effects 7 on deploys its military to the south to enforce the truth as many who fled to fly st pricing for ton to the homes. also coming up on the program, russia says it is expelling to john lists from german. rhode costs to a all d months ago says it's retaliation for what it describes as germany's targeting of journalists from russian states, television, and polls close in namibia as millions costs votes to elect to new parliament and

the new president, the routing policy. how.